Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Elbows wrote:
6x4 will remain the table size simply because every mat-manufacturer out there produces 6x4 mats for 40K and other games. It's become the standard size outside of 40K for a variety of tabletop wargames, etc.

Then GW brought out Kill-Team, and mat manufacturers started making mats in that size. How long before they start making 44x60 maps?

Reece already confirmed they will be selling new mats.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

And the “nothing stopping you from playing your own way alone the way you like it alone” doesn’t fly... next is what? Play a different game if you don’t like the changes

Sorry, you've lost me there. They've offered suggestions as to the minimum size you should use, and have explicitly stated that you can use a larger board if you wish.

So, seriously, please explain what is stopping you from continuing to play on a 6x4 table?

The same people who were stopping us from using the same datasheet more than three times in our army (i.e., because that's the way that the tournaments do it)

The more I ponder the the more this is a good thing for melee.

It is a pretty significant size difference -- 2640 sq in VS 3546 sq in

Even with no man's land the same this means melee units in your opponent's backfield have less area to cover.

Seriously, the whole argument of "you don't have to" is not really approriate when it comes to GW gaming. As someone stated, you don't have to use the Rule of 3, but try playing in a tournament or local store without adhering to that rule...ain't gonna happen.
FLG will be selling mats, gamemat.eu and others will follow suit (they will want a piece of the action), and within 3 months, games of 40K in most settings will be played on 60x44 surfaces. It's just the way it goes.

The weird thing is, you almost need the same size table for that game as you do for a 6x4 so it's not from a logistics standpoint (at least for the 2000pt standard)

Maybe the next best thing to sell is a mat boundary that you place over your 6x4 pre-existing mat....saves placing tape down.

bullyboy wrote:Seriously, the whole argument of "you don't have to" is not really approriate when it comes to GW gaming. As someone stated, you don't have to use the Rule of 3, but try playing in a tournament or local store without adhering to that rule...ain't gonna happen.

I've never been told to use the Rule of 3. If your opponents will only play using completely optional rules, find new opponents? Tournaments, I can understand, but they'll have their own standards which they will make clear before the event. Local store? No such expectations.

Maybe the next best thing to sell is a mat boundary that you place over your 6x4 pre-existing mat....saves placing tape down.

If it's your own 6x4, in your own house/gaming venue... why on earth do you have to worry what anyone else says? It's your house, your rules!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Simple,
Where ITC goes, weak-mindedpeople follow.
The time of bespoke tournaments is gone, nearly all are ITC.
And that is great

I'm glad that we will continue to use the best table size....8X4' FTW!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Seriously, the whole argument of "you don't have to" is not really approriate when it comes to GW gaming. As someone stated, you don't have to use the Rule of 3, but try playing in a tournament or local store without adhering to that rule...ain't gonna happen.

I've never been told to use the Rule of 3. If your opponents will only play using completely optional rules, find new opponents? Tournaments, I can understand, but they'll have their own standards which they will make clear before the event. Local store? No such expectations.

Maybe the next best thing to sell is a mat boundary that you place over your 6x4 pre-existing mat....saves placing tape down.

If it's your own 6x4, in your own house/gaming venue... why on earth do you have to worry what anyone else says? It's your house, your rules!

In solo games? Sure, I can fudge any aspect of the game I want. Heck, you're right, i might be able to convince my buddy to play on the full 6x4 table. The thing is, often times, someone will have a list that they want to practice for an event, and that event will be on a 44x60, so they will want to practice at that size. This will happen often enough until you basically say, what the heck, let's just play 44x60 from here on. It happens, people are just creatures of habit.

I'm just gonna say it. Literally the only thing that matter is the tournament standard.

What you and your buds play in your garage is irrelevant, what you have the freedom to choose if you lack space is irrelevant. All that matters is what the tournament standard size ends up being.

If ITC wasn't dropping their table size I would say this would get ignored, but they are so the question is will the rsst of the tournament scene fall in line or will their investment in 6x4s and mats keep them to the old standard?

Most likely most events will switch and just mark out a dead zone on the edges of their mats. Which will be awful.

bullyboy wrote:In solo games? Sure, I can fudge any aspect of the game I want. Heck, you're right, i might be able to convince my buddy to play on the full 6x4 table. The thing is, often times, someone will have a list that they want to practice for an event, and that event will be on a 44x60, so they will want to practice at that size. This will happen often enough until you basically say, what the heck, let's just play 44x60 from here on. It happens, people are just creatures of habit.

So, basically, only if you care about tournaments. Which not all players, or even a majority of players, do?

Why should GW take criticism of "you're changing the board size!" from a minority of players who refuse to deviate from limits they accepted themselves?

ERJAK wrote:I'm just gonna say it. Literally the only thing that matter is the tournament standard.

Only if all you care about is tournaments. Which not all players (and in fact a majority of all players) do.

I'm not saying tournaments won't change size. But if you're just going to copy whatever the tournaments decide, that was your choice, which was out of GW's hands.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ERJAK wrote:I'm just gonna say it. Literally the only thing that matter is the tournament standard.

Only if all you care about is tournaments. Which not all players (and in fact a majority of all players) do.

Tournament standard has a strong habit of shaping PUG expectations.

Even if, despite the clear instruction that these are MINIMUM SIZES, people decide to use these smaller measurements to make mats--they will still fit on the 6x4 tables. You would just have a bit of extra space around the edges, just like with a lot of tables today. So you'll only get hosed if your gaming area provides new, cut down tables and you have a larger mat.

I could maybe understand the commotion if we still used guess range weapons. I know that people used to be really conscious of table dimensions when you had to actually guess the range on certain weapons, but you can just measure the damn stuff now.

I don't see it as sinister or avaricious, as much as just slightly incompetent. GW made Kill Team boards a weird freaking size, for no good reason, but realized that doing so meant that people couldn't use them in 40K games. It's just a kludge to allow (and encourage) you to use those boards, even when you aren't playing Kill Team. It would have been great if the KT boards were a more
'standard' size, but given how improvisational Kill Team tends to be, I don't think it was a big issue. But it is a way to allow you to get more use out of your KT boards.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ERJAK wrote:I'm just gonna say it. Literally the only thing that matter is the tournament standard.

Only if all you care about is tournaments. Which not all players (and in fact a majority of all players) do.

Tournament standard has a strong habit of shaping PUG expectations.

in the worst possible way.

It's amazing when you play someone whom has only played tourney and inform them that all the stupid house rules ITC imposes on the game are just that, house rules.

I built my own table for Star Wars: Armada and, purposely, made it 1 foot too big (on the long edge) for cards/staging. I kinda like the idea of a 2k game (~1500-1750 of now stuff) on a slightly smaller board with room ON THE TABLE for your cards; reinforcements, etc.

I'm just curious if GW will take advantage and quickly produce mats at the new size you can drop on your old 6x4 boards. I'd be down for that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

bullyboy wrote:In solo games? Sure, I can fudge any aspect of the game I want. Heck, you're right, i might be able to convince my buddy to play on the full 6x4 table. The thing is, often times, someone will have a list that they want to practice for an event, and that event will be on a 44x60, so they will want to practice at that size. This will happen often enough until you basically say, what the heck, let's just play 44x60 from here on. It happens, people are just creatures of habit.

So, basically, only if you care about tournaments. Which not all players, or even a majority of players, do?

Why should GW take criticism of "you're changing the board size!" from a minority of players who refuse to deviate from limits they accepted themselves?

ERJAK wrote:I'm just gonna say it. Literally the only thing that matter is the tournament standard.

Only if all you care about is tournaments. Which not all players (and in fact a majority of all players) do.

I'm not saying tournaments won't change size. But if you're just going to copy whatever the tournaments decide, that was your choice, which was out of GW's hands.

You're really ignoring the collective, and maybe this is just a small English club type of mentality? (not knocking it, I'm from the UK). It seems that in the US, they love standardization. If the big tournies are playing one way, it usually trickles down to any player that even has a small affiliation with someone who plays in events. It just becomes a standard. Sure, the guys I game with are often open to some narrative games, etc, but if we're just meeting up on a Saturday to play a game, you can bet it will be 2000pts, on a 6x4, using rule of 3, etc, etc.
So what I'm saying is that in 3 months, we'll probably be meeting on Saturdays, playing 2000pts on 44x60 table...just a hunch, I'd personally prefer to keep 6x4, but not sure if I will be in the minority.

Racerguy180 wrote:
It's amazing when you play someone whom has only played tourney and inform them that all the stupid house rules ITC imposes on the game are just that, house rules.

That's one of the big reasons I gave up on 8th edition in general. The local scene moved towards that nonsense and I wasn't going to accommodate their fake rules.

It is ,respectively was a massive issue for balancing , especially the undeserved attention it got.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Seriously, the whole argument of "you don't have to" is not really approriate when it comes to GW gaming. As someone stated, you don't have to use the Rule of 3, but try playing in a tournament or local store without adhering to that rule...ain't gonna happen.

I've never been told to use the Rule of 3. If your opponents will only play using completely optional rules, find new opponents? Tournaments, I can understand, but they'll have their own standards which they will make clear before the event. Local store? No such expectations.

Maybe the next best thing to sell is a mat boundary that you place over your 6x4 pre-existing mat....saves placing tape down.

If it's your own 6x4, in your own house/gaming venue... why on earth do you have to worry what anyone else says? It's your house, your rules!

first considering we get more examples here of people from all around the world playing where the rule of 3 is not optional, we can say that the chance of it being optional for majority of players is smaller. And the second thing, there are places in the world where gaming is not done in private homes, but at stores or in clubs run by stores. Good luck trying to play there with something the store does not want to be used, specialy if they sell stuff that they do want you to use and it lines up with what GW wants to sell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

You're really ignoring the collective, and maybe this is just a small English club type of mentality? (not knocking it, I'm from the UK). It seems that in the US, they love standardization.
So what I'm saying is that in 3 months, we'll probably be meeting on Saturdays, playing 2000pts on 44x60 table...just a hunch, I'd personally prefer to keep 6x4, but not sure if I will be in the minority.

Not just in the US they love standarization, if I may point that out.

Karol wrote:
And the second thing, there are places in the world where gaming is not done in private homes, but at stores or in clubs run by stores. Good luck trying to play there with something the store does not want to be used, specialy if they sell stuff that they do want you to use and it lines up with what GW wants to sell.

Stores are not going to be chopping 4" off the edges of their tables. While there is some small amount of justification for tournaments to do so in order to chase the meta, it simply makes no financial sense for stores to replace their tables just because the people who make the game say that it can now work on a surface that is fractionally smaller.

 insaniak wrote:

Karol wrote:
And the second thing, there are places in the world where gaming is not done in private homes, but at stores or in clubs run by stores. Good luck trying to play there with something the store does not want to be used, specialy if they sell stuff that they do want you to use and it lines up with what GW wants to sell.

Stores are not going to be chopping 4" off the edges of their tables. While there is some small amount of justification for tournaments to do so in order to chase the meta, it simply makes no financial sense for stores to replace their tables just because the people who make the game say that it can now work on a surface that is fractionally smaller.

no need to cut anything. Properly placed duct tape will suffice.

Personally, I don't expect many local stores/clubs or events to change their table sizes to the new minimum (particularly if they're also used for other games beyond just 40k, I think that may be a kicker for many), the space savings isn't really all that meaningful over 6-10 tables, and would require investment in new boards, and I have zero interest in doing so for casual home/solo gaming for the same reasons.

I also don't see where it'd be worth the time and effort to lop off or otherwise designate 4" off just to meet the new *minimum* for its own sake on existing boards.

I expect we may see large events shift to the new minimum where space may be at a premium with many dozens or hundreds of tables (particularly if they're run by people selling stuff tailored to the new minimum), or new stores/clubs that don't have existing boards and tables, but I think the classic 4x6 is going to remain the norm for most people, at least for a while. I'm certainly in no hurry to switch table sizes.

Dai wrote:
I suppose in a game where fleeing is not a thing there really is no need for such depth.

Apart from movement and tactics. The more crowed the board the more game is just rolling dice

 insaniak wrote:

Karol wrote:
And the second thing, there are places in the world where gaming is not done in private homes, but at stores or in clubs run by stores. Good luck trying to play there with something the store does not want to be used, specialy if they sell stuff that they do want you to use and it lines up with what GW wants to sell.

Stores are not going to be chopping 4" off the edges of their tables. While there is some small amount of justification for tournaments to do so in order to chase the meta, it simply makes no financial sense for stores to replace their tables just because the people who make the game say that it can now work on a surface that is fractionally smaller.

I don't have problems with tables being to big. Comparing to US stores ours are very small. We had 4x4, and 5x5 tables. But this is a personal me problem not a world wide one. All in all I think it is a good change.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Karol wrote:
And the second thing, there are places in the world where gaming is not done in private homes, but at stores or in clubs run by stores. Good luck trying to play there with something the store does not want to be used, specialy if they sell stuff that they do want you to use and it lines up with what GW wants to sell.

Stores are not going to be chopping 4" off the edges of their tables. While there is some small amount of justification for tournaments to do so in order to chase the meta, it simply makes no financial sense for stores to replace their tables just because the people who make the game say that it can now work on a surface that is fractionally smaller.

no need to cut anything. Properly placed duct tape will suffice.

So taping and removing tapes for storage is soooo easy...

Or you could do the sensible thing and understand what word "minimum" means. Helps also making movement and deployment matters more.

Miniums become the maximum more often then not. I know that if a teacher or trainer tells us to do minimum of something, most people are going to do just that, and those that try to do more are going to find it real hard to find acceptance.

I mean nothing was, technicly, stoping people from playing 8th with 1250 or 1750pts. Yet the armies seemed to be 2000pts in their majority.

Having just spent more money on my RoB board tiles, terrain and foldable 2 x 4 foot tables than on any miniatures this year, aint no way I'm going to be throwing all that away just because of some BS ITC decision to take "minimum" as "standard". I'll keep my modular table builds at 4x4/6x4/8x4 thanks. I see the RAI in this the same way I see ruling on mini base sizes, "you can mount the miniature on a bigger base that it came with, but not smaller", therefore this to me reads "you can have a bigger table than this for this size game, but not smaller".

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Karol wrote:
And the second thing, there are places in the world where gaming is not done in private homes, but at stores or in clubs run by stores. Good luck trying to play there with something the store does not want to be used, specialy if they sell stuff that they do want you to use and it lines up with what GW wants to sell.

Stores are not going to be chopping 4" off the edges of their tables. While there is some small amount of justification for tournaments to do so in order to chase the meta, it simply makes no financial sense for stores to replace their tables just because the people who make the game say that it can now work on a surface that is fractionally smaller.

no need to cut anything. Properly placed duct tape will suffice.

I can tell you right now GWs new suggestions for table size (especially the 44" part) will be largely ignored at the local shop & 100% ignored within the circles I play with.
Tables 48" across. Deal with it or don't play, your choice. Doesn't matter what the tournament scene standard is.

Karol wrote:
Miniums become the maximum more often then not. I know that if a teacher or trainer tells us to do minimum of something, most people are going to do just that, and those that try to do more are going to find it real hard to find acceptance.

I mean nothing was, technicly, stoping people from playing 8th with 1250 or 1750pts. Yet the armies seemed to be 2000pts in their majority.

The point was that those stores who already have 4x6 tables will continue to use them, because they already have then. At worst, they'll mark out the smaller zone for those who want to use it, in which case you can just ignore it and use the whole table.

This whole thing is a storm in a teacup. Use whatever size table you choose, just like people have been doing for the last 30 years.

tauist wrote:
Having just spent more money on my RoB board tiles, terrain and foldable 2 x 4 foot tables than on any miniatures this year, aint no way I'm going to be throwing all that away just because of some BS ITC decision to take "minimum" as "standard". I'll keep my modular table builds at 4x4/6x4/8x4 thanks. I see the RAI in this the same way I see ruling on mini base sizes, "you can mount the miniature on a bigger base that it came with, but not smaller", therefore this to me reads "you can have a bigger table than this for this size game, but not smaller".

Not just you. To anybody who undestand basic english

One of the stores here has some big problems with available space, so he will surely switch to the new suggested minimum.

The other ones are where the more dedicated players tend to go, so i expect those too to make the jump (probably just taping the existing ones).

As has been already said, having a 6" on your side reserved for casualties, cards and stuff is quite handy.