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yukishiro1 wrote:
The marine statline was totally fine. There's a reason that for more than 30 years marines stayed at 1W like the basic troops of every other army. GW's game engine works best with armies that are roughly equivalent.

Marines worked best when they had base stats that were better overall than everybody else, but not dramatically so. Kicking them up to 2W and then effectively 3A each wrecked the basic design of the whole game and has led directly to most of 8th edition's problems.

The idea that they had to be bumped up in power level because they weren't doing well in 7th is a bit curious in light of the fact that there were 6 other previous editions of the game. And even if space marines had been chronically underpowered, which they weren't, there were lots of ways to address that that didn't involve just buffing the base statline out the wazoo.

And in those six editions they weren't the greatest either. It was always a gimmick that was relied on for success compared to the statline itself. The troop itself was not really good. 4th was MAYBE the closest the statline itself worked.
Also if you didn't play 7th, the reason Marines worked is because they could end up playing with around 400 to 500 extra points. It was disgusting.

Kayback wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Instead, it's a retcon like "Guilliman foresaw the need for more better marines ages ago and commissioned Cawl to make an refined Astartes program, which he worked on secretly without funding for 10000 years and then decided not to declare his project done [or the project finally finished and the hot pockets are done] just when Gulliman came back to life." Because nothing can be truly new and everything new has to be retconned to have it's origins in the 31st Millenium.

I wrote a long reply earlier but deleted it saying pretty much this.

I think they shot themselves in the foot by writing some of this stuff down. Mostly in the HH series. Yes it gave us some interesting reads and showed how things got started but it also seems to have cemented how things went or collapsed the wave function of something. Saying "things went to pieces many many years ago but they still struggling on, now with Nids" left a lot of wriggle room to retcon stuff without too much hassle.

The fact GW kept launching new and improved units shows innovation hasn't stopped. The changes we've seen since RT prove that. IoM should be quasi Eldar-Tau by now. Trying to bluff your way through fluff.

I appreciate the larger, IMHO mostly better looking, Marines who appear somewhat closer to the fluff levels of dangerous now and I think they are trying to move the WH40K universe on without AoS-ing things.

The Imperium has a higher tech level than the Tau. There isn't really anything the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't also have the demonstrated capability to make, and the Tau don't have laser weapons at all much less handheld ones to mass produce by the truckload [not to mention a healthy variety of other more exotic weapons like radiation guns, deflagration rays, lightning arc guns, gravity guns, etc].

The basic marine statline was fine. There were all sorts of other problems in later editions, like the fact that a Lascannon could only do a single wound to a Riptide, for starters. Or the fact that high AP weapons were handed out like candy. Those were actual problems.

Not to mention Black Library talking up marines like they're some sort of gods, and marine players feeling precious about how their troops are getting killed in games that involve half an armored company. Like . . . of course they're going to die in an environment like that.

But no, apparently marines have to be the bestest and the shootiest and the toughest and the blah blah blah. Where'as older editions allowed marines to actually have some individual disadvantages in comparisson to other faction troops, now it's just "marines uber alles", and in a really dumb way at that.

The Classic Statline is correct. Primaris are terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

The Imperium has a higher tech level than the Tau. There isn't really anything the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't also have the demonstrated capability to make, and the Tau don't have laser weapons at all much less handheld ones to mass produce by the truckload [not to mention a healthy variety of other more exotic weapons like radiation guns, deflagration rays, lightning arc guns, gravity guns, etc].

The Imperium does have amazing tech, as it should. But one of the pillars of the setting is that the Imperium uses tech in totally backwards fashion, hence, the chainsword. The differentiator between the Imperium and Tau is that the Tau use their tech in a way that's more holistically synergistic, while the Imperium sorta does a round-peg-square-hole application of it.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I didn't play 7th, so I can't talk from personal experience, but I've heard that was mostly because they literally gave space marines lots of free points in their armies, or something like that?

Formations did all kinds of stupid things and Marines were among the greatest beneficiaries, though in all fairness they weren't bad before it all kicked up either except in comparison to Eldar who kicked around pretty much everybody, and possibly Necrons (who also got their own formation shennanigans). Anyone saying that Marines were *only* good because of the free stuff is mis-remembring a lot of that edition, but they did reach absurd new heights in the last couple years of the 6E/7E era.

Kayback wrote:

The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?

Whilst I agree that focusing on couple of hyperpeople like Cawl and Guilliman is puerile and awkward, the fact that there have been numerous attempts to improve the marines makes the primaris on general level work for me. It makes sense that at some point some of those improvemens would actually work.

 Crimson wrote:

Kayback wrote:

The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?

Whilst I agree that focusing on couple of hyperpeople like Cawl and Guilliman is puerile and awkward, the fact that there have been numerous attempts to improve the marines makes the primaris on general level work for me. It makes sense that at some point some of those improvemens would actually work.

So why don't Eldar have super drones loaded with Strcannons by the dozen in every fight? If you're going to be ok with handing out improvements you have to spread tht around a bit. Instead, arguably many units from other factions have actually gotten worse over time. Look no further than the Shuriken Catapult. Compare to a bolter in 2nd Ed.
Catapult: Range 24, ~D3 shots, S4, -2 AP
Bolter: Range 24, 1 shot, S4, -1 AP but marines standing still can fire twice.

8th Ed
Catapult: range 12, 2 shots, S4, 0 AP (-3 save on a 6)
Bolt Rifle: Range 30, Rapid fire, -1 AP (but CAN be fire twice on the move at -2AP)

It's a joke.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Kayback wrote:

The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?

Whilst I agree that focusing on couple of hyperpeople like Cawl and Guilliman is puerile and awkward, the fact that there have been numerous attempts to improve the marines makes the primaris on general level work for me. It makes sense that at some point some of those improvemens would actually work.

So why don't Eldar have super drones loaded with Strcannons by the dozen in every fight? If you're going to be ok with handing out improvements you have to spread tht around a bit. Instead, arguably many units from other factions have actually gotten worse over time. Look no further than the Shuriken Catapult. Compare to a bolter in 2nd Ed.
Catapult: Range 24, ~D3 shots, S4, -2 AP
Bolter: Range 24, 1 shot, S4, -1 AP but marines standing still can fire twice.

8th Ed
Catapult: range 12, 2 shots, S4, 0 AP (-3 save on a 6)
Bolt Rifle: Range 30, Rapid fire, -1 AP (but CAN be fire twice on the move at -2AP)

It's a joke.

Fully agreed. I have been complaining about the downgrade of the Eldar tech since the third edition.

2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be. They should be super tough. Marines very elite and individually powerful. Also, bear in mind that whilst most standard guns indeed do only one wound, they have multiple shots, so models with these weaposn still have chance to take down a primaris in one shooting phase. Sure, it is a slim chance, and it should be. (Not defending the sad state of the shuriken catapult obviously.)

I have been super pleased with how the primaris feel in the game (even before the codex mark 2 buffs,) I finally have marines that feel like elite super soldiers.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.

Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

The Imperium has a higher tech level than the Tau. There isn't really anything the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't also have the demonstrated capability to make, and the Tau don't have laser weapons at all much less handheld ones to mass produce by the truckload [not to mention a healthy variety of other more exotic weapons like radiation guns, deflagration rays, lightning arc guns, gravity guns, etc].

The Imperium does have amazing tech, as it should. But one of the pillars of the setting is that the Imperium uses tech in totally backwards fashion, hence, the chainsword. The differentiator between the Imperium and Tau is that the Tau use their tech in a way that's more holistically synergistic, while the Imperium sorta does a round-peg-square-hole application of it.

That doesn't mean that all Imperial things much have been created as part of a heresy-era project though.

The razorback, immolator, and macharius tank all long in canon were all completely conceptualized, developed, and accepted into service in normal-ish timeframes more recently than the 31st millennium.

Retconning the primaris project to have been in progress all along in secret for the last 10k years just to maintain some ambiguous not-actually-newness to them was stupid. Guilliman could have woken up and said "Hey, Cawl, make me some MkII Space Marines" and it wouldn't have been lore breaking or anything.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be. They should be super tough. Marines very elite and individually powerful. Also, bear in mind that whilst most standard guns indeed do only one wound, they have multiple shots, so models with these weaposn still have chance to take down a primaris in one shooting phase. Sure, it is a slim chance, and it should be. (Not defending the sad state of the shuriken catapult obviously.)

I have been super pleased with how the primaris feel in the game (even before the codex mark 2 buffs,) I finally have marines that feel like elite super soldiers.

And everyone else gets to have elites that feel like ultrachumps. Great trade off. Really sweet.

Remember when we used to debate about who could win in a fight, a howling banshee or a space marine? Well now a squad of banshees kills 1 basic space marine, and 1 basic space marine with the melee loadout can take out 3 banshees between shooting and melee no prob.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.

Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.

And now that mistake has finally been fixed!

If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?

"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh. - - - or, ya know, until my man Cawl get done with his project in which case out with the old and in with the new, eh boys?" - Robute Guilliman, opening lines of the Codex Astartes.

I'm fine with some new stuff from time to time. . . but Primaris are baaaaaaaad.

the_scotsman wrote:

And everyone else gets to have elites that feel like ultrachumps. Great trade off. Really sweet.

Some of those elites could use buffs too (not 2W though, except for CSM.) And no, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same as long as non-elite units exist too.

Remember when we used to debate about who could win in a fight, a howling banshee or a space marine? Well now a squad of banshees kills 1 basic space marine, and 1 basic space marine with the melee loadout can take out 3 banshees between shooting and melee no prob.

I'm not up to date with the current aspect warrior rules, but those are the sort of things that could generally be better. Though in a tricksy specialised way instead of raw-power way.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.

Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.

And now that mistake has finally been fixed!

If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?

Or csm, eldar, orks.....

Yeah, giving loyalists an extra wound and leaving everyone else's stat line the same was a great idea. Didn't mess with balance at all.

In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.

Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.

And now that mistake has finally been fixed!

If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?

why was that a mistake?

What in the background makes you think a Space Marine is tougher than a Necron Immortal?

 Insectum7 wrote:
"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh. - - - or, ya know, until my man Cawl get done with his project in which case out with the old and in with the new, eh boys?" - Robute Guilliman, opening lines of the Codex Astartes.

Space marines are going nowhere, they're better than ever and look better than ever. If you stopped fixating on superficial technicalities you could enjoy it.

I'm fine with some new stuff from time to time. . . but Primaris are baaaaaaaad.

Or I guess throwing a tantrum works too...

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.

Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.

And now that mistake has finally been fixed!

If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?

It was never a mistake. You buy some Dire Avengers, you spend a turn or two waiting for your opponent to make a positioning error, now's your time to strike! You unload with your Shuriken Catapults at close range! A Primaris or two dies, you might even get a lucky 6. They look at you for a moment, and return fire, easily wiping out your whole squad of veteran warriors because they wound back on 3's, make your armor save a 6+, and can double fire from beyond your maximum range.

Primaris are baaaad for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh. - - - or, ya know, until my man Cawl get done with his project in which case out with the old and in with the new, eh boys?" - Robute Guilliman, opening lines of the Codex Astartes.

Space marines are going nowhere, they're better than ever and look better than ever. If you stopped fixating on superficial technicalities you could enjoy it.

I'm fine with some new stuff from time to time. . . but Primaris are baaaaaaaad.

Or I guess throwing a tantrum works too...

Making the basic units of other factions feel like ***t is not a "superficial technicality".

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

And everyone else gets to have elites that feel like ultrachumps. Great trade off. Really sweet.

Some of those elites could use buffs too (not 2W though, except for CSM.) And no, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same as long as non-elite units exist too.

Remember when we used to debate about who could win in a fight, a howling banshee or a space marine? Well now a squad of banshees kills 1 basic space marine, and 1 basic space marine with the melee loadout can take out 3 banshees between shooting and melee no prob.

I'm not up to date with the current aspect warrior rules, but those are the sort of things that could generally be better. Though in a tricksy specialised way instead of raw-power way.

So, it seems like there's a legitimate problem here, where space marines felt too fragile and non-elite after 4 editions of GW pushing things with them being one-ups of space marines, like Deathwatch, Custodes, Wulfen, Centurions, Knights, etc.

And to solve that problem, GW decided marines should roll 2x the dice and have 2x the wounds.

And now everyone else's elites, that used to be kind of the equivalent of marines, like Necrons, Aspect Warriors, Nobz, Genestealers - now they all feel like disposable horde army trash. And tbh, I don't even know what proper horde units are anymore - masochism?

So I guess we COULD double everyones shots, double everyones wounds, make harlequins throw 8 dice apiece and banshees throw 6 dice and genestealers get 5 S5 Ap-3 attacks and khorne bezerkers throw 8 S4 Ap- attacks and W2 and still fight twice....

....or like....we could dial back the lethality for everybody and put space marines back into the fairly durable, fairly deadly medium infantry role they have always been in?

The problem with the "marines feel elite, that's great" thing is that it's only fun as long as you have people masochistic enough to deal with playing vs your marines.

Put two primaris armies against each other, and unfortunately they don't feel like marines anymore, because they hose eachother off the board like nobody's goddamn business. Primaris feel like marines until you slam those bikers into a squad of intercessors and shred them like they're made out of cheesecloth, or an invictor warsuit pops up, blows away a min squad of space marines and charges your repulsor to deal 8 wounds to it in melee. The inevitable thing that will happen and, in my experience has happened with primaris getting this crazy is people just haven't wanted to play against them anymore, and they're stuck playing against eachother until they get sick of it and pick up something that's not marines, or just willingly give up doctrines or something so they can get a game in again.

And yet every other army in the game has 1W troops (special cases like kataphrons don't count).

You have races like eldar where their aspect warriors have spent hundreds or in some cases thousands of years honing their skills using what is supposed to be technology vastly superior to the imperium...and they get absolutely trashed by a run of the mill intercessor who is Just Better (TM).

Yes, you could make the aspect warriors much better too. But that's the whole "power creep" issue people have identified as the basic problem with primaris. Once you start making normal troops better than most races' elite choices even at the specialist tasks those elites are supposed to do, you end up in the bad place of space marines being "jacks of all trades, masters of all trades."

The game was balanced for 30+ years around all basic models having 1W. Once you break that paradigm it starts to do weird things to the game, and before you know it you end up with dumb stuff like 6-man aggressors shooting 140 shots a turn...or space marine bikers with 4W and 6A each.

I actually think 2W models them very well. Some other units need 2W as well, and some need 3W. 3+ armor has been too weak for sometime now, and 8th ed makes it a joke indeed. Even at 2W they are very glass-cannony.

I don't think think there is anything wrong with Primaris, and indeed they were crap for the majority of 8th edition.

The problem is this seemingly unstoppable tide of "have loads of buffs, have a little nerf, have loads more buffs, have a little nerf, have loads more buffs" which is rapidly moving me to irrational Marine hatred.

It feels very much like Eldar in 7th - and there at least you had the knowledge that the edition would end and maybe, maybe things would be different. (And at least under the index, they were.)

Unfortunately PA has been a complete failure of design, and I have little hope that the 9th edition Index isn't going to result in a complete mess, with various factions "waiting on their codex" while others enjoy so many overpowered combinations its just dumb.

But then the codexes can come out and who knows, maybe Ork Boys can get 10 attacks each cos they're well 'ard and Leman Russ can shoot 5 times if they stand still, cos, you know, its fun? 4th Turn Power from Pain can just be "Immune to bullets, increase your FNP to 2+ rerollable because you dark eldar have ascended to beings of pure vampiric mist."

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.

Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.

Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.

And now that mistake has finally been fixed!

If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?

Is that a mistake being fixed, or are we seeing the result of a slow grind in stat bloat over multiple editions? Because Marines started out life being S4 T3 W1 with a 4+ save that got reduced to a 5+ against Lasguns.

More wounds to track, more dice to roll, more, MORE, MOOOOOORE! Space marines feel more like space marines in apocalypse, where you cant just turn off defensive stats and power armor isnt a joke. And amazingly they dont need to throw 15 thousand dice per attack to do it.

Yeah, and quoting the lore for why they have 2W is sorta besides the point. In the lore a single howling banshee should be able to beat dozens of imperial guard in combat; they shouldn't even be able to touch her. She supposedly literally moves more quickly than they can even follow; they end up cut in half before they even realize she's turned to strike them.

Or Cherubael, a being of nearly limitless power who blows the top half off a warlord titan with a single ranged attack in the lore...who is a 25 point daemon host in the tabletop whose shooting is a single S8 attack that becomes D3 damage if you roll a 6 to wound. Overwhelming power, that.

The fact is game stats have only ever had a vague relationship to the power level of stuff as depicted in the lore. Marines having the S4 T4 statline to represent their superhuman strength and durability was perfectly in line with the way the exceptional abilities of other models were translated into tabletop rules.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Is that a mistake being fixed, or are we seeing the result of a slow grind in stat bloat over multiple editions? Because Marines started out life being S4 T3 W1 with a 4+ save that got reduced to a 5+ against Lasguns.

I know. And finally they feel like elites. For a long while a solution to things was to just throwing more cheap bodies at things. Elites usually were not elite enough compared to chumps to matter. GW has finally started to address this. And this doesn't mean buffing everyone, it means widening the gap between elites and mooks so that having more bodies is not always the best answer.

 Crimson wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.

More powerful than an Immortal? More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so? Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle and Necron Gauss Blaster. . . at the same time?

Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?