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God, I wish they'd never done 2W marines. It's hastened the arm race with this damn game.

I wish they would scale the game back down to 1W for everything on 32mm or less base and just tweak S & T as appropriate. Save the wounds for heroes, monsters and tanks.

And then get attacks/shooting under control. Basic troops should have *1* attack shooting or melee and only ultra elite stuff/blast & hosing-style weapons (such as the assault cannon) should be looking at more than one shot per turn.

It would sure make the game go faster rather than having to reload and count your bucket of dice for every model's attack.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Having an additional -1 absolutely does do something. It negates any potential +1s that a unit has.

If you have a -2 and I have a +1, you still get a -1. If you have a -1 and I have a +1, you have no bonus nor do I.

Ah, yes, all those +1s to hit from two places in the Imperial Guard codex and nowhere else. Definitely would be a useful thing to have.

I don't own every single codex but off the top of my head?
Eliminator Squads. The Sergeant can forego shooting to give the unit +1 to Hit and Wound rolls. Vanguard Warlord trait "Target Priority" allows you to grant +1 to hit rolls for a <Chapter> Phobos unit.
Longstrike adds 1 to hit rolls for T'au Sept Hammerheads within 6" of him. Markerlights, obviously, give +1 to hit rolls for Tau Empire units firing at a unit with 5+ markerlight counters on them. Drop Zone Clear stratagem adds another 1 to hit rolls for a Farsight Enclaves unit that used Manta Strike ability that turn.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Having an additional -1 absolutely does do something. It negates any potential +1s that a unit has.

If you have a -2 and I have a +1, you still get a -1. If you have a -1 and I have a +1, you have no bonus nor do I.

Ah, yes, all those +1s to hit from two places in the Imperial Guard codex and nowhere else. Definitely would be a useful thing to have.

I don't own every single codex but off the top of my head?
Eliminator Squads. The Sergeant can forego shooting to give the unit +1 to Hit and Wound rolls. Vanguard Warlord trait "Target Priority" allows you to grant +1 to hit rolls for a <Chapter> Phobos unit.
Longstrike adds 1 to hit rolls for T'au Sept Hammerheads within 6" of him. Markerlights, obviously, give +1 to hit rolls for Tau Empire units firing at a unit with 5+ markerlight counters on them. Drop Zone Clear stratagem adds another 1 to hit rolls for a Farsight Enclaves unit that used Manta Strike ability that turn.

Ah yes, eliminators, hammerheads, and Phobos units. My 30 daemonette blobs tremble in fear of anti-tank guns and single-shot sniper rifles...

Seriously. If a unit has a native -1 to-hit rule, I hope it's essentially free in 9th edition, with the cap to modifiers. Certainly isn't worth one whole point.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Darmonettes could have a bonus to their save or a modifier to be hit for all I care.

You don't care about the potential for a 30-girl unit to have 6 or 7 attacks per model?

And hit modifiers are capped, so we can't use that do change durability (if Terrain gives a -1, then having an additional -1 doesn't do anything). We'll have to adjust their save, it's already a 5++.

I guess an armywide 4++, buffable with warp-surge or Tzeench to a 3++, is totally fine and not broken at all.

I don't care how many attacks a unit has usually simply because most units won't make it to melee and, if it's a death star plan, it'll already have a bunch of attacks to begin with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Darmonettes could have a bonus to their save or a modifier to be hit for all I care.

You don't care about the potential for a 30-girl unit to have 6 or 7 attacks per model?

And hit modifiers are capped, so we can't use that do change durability (if Terrain gives a -1, then having an additional -1 doesn't do anything). We'll have to adjust their save, it's already a 5++.

I guess an armywide 4++, buffable with warp-surge or Tzeench to a 3++, is totally fine and not broken at all.

I don't care how many attacks a unit has usually simply because most units won't make it to melee and, if it's a death star plan, it'll already have a bunch of attacks to begin with.

That's certainly a hot take. I suppose engaging with such insanity isn't worth my time.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Darmonettes could have a bonus to their save or a modifier to be hit for all I care.

You don't care about the potential for a 30-girl unit to have 6 or 7 attacks per model?

And hit modifiers are capped, so we can't use that do change durability (if Terrain gives a -1, then having an additional -1 doesn't do anything). We'll have to adjust their save, it's already a 5++.

I guess an armywide 4++, buffable with warp-surge or Tzeench to a 3++, is totally fine and not broken at all.

I don't care how many attacks a unit has usually simply because most units won't make it to melee and, if it's a death star plan, it'll already have a bunch of attacks to begin with.

That's certainly a hot take. I suppose engaging with such insanity isn't worth my time.

When someone wants a unit to get that many attacks, there will be a way to do so already in the codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Darmonettes could have a bonus to their save or a modifier to be hit for all I care.

You don't care about the potential for a 30-girl unit to have 6 or 7 attacks per model?

And hit modifiers are capped, so we can't use that do change durability (if Terrain gives a -1, then having an additional -1 doesn't do anything). We'll have to adjust their save, it's already a 5++.

I guess an armywide 4++, buffable with warp-surge or Tzeench to a 3++, is totally fine and not broken at all.

I don't care how many attacks a unit has usually simply because most units won't make it to melee and, if it's a death star plan, it'll already have a bunch of attacks to begin with.

That's certainly a hot take. I suppose engaging with such insanity isn't worth my time.

When someone wants a unit to get that many attacks, there will be a way to do so already in the codex.

Right, but we're talking baseline, right?

Remember, we're trying to put baseline Primaris up against baseline "Other Units". Not Primaris + Stratagems + Warlord Traits + Army Bonuses vs "Other Unit" + Stratagems + Warlord Traits + Army Bonuses. That way lies madness, for the combinations are so infinite.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Darmonettes could have a bonus to their save or a modifier to be hit for all I care.

You don't care about the potential for a 30-girl unit to have 6 or 7 attacks per model?

And hit modifiers are capped, so we can't use that do change durability (if Terrain gives a -1, then having an additional -1 doesn't do anything). We'll have to adjust their save, it's already a 5++.

I guess an armywide 4++, buffable with warp-surge or Tzeench to a 3++, is totally fine and not broken at all.

I don't care how many attacks a unit has usually simply because most units won't make it to melee and, if it's a death star plan, it'll already have a bunch of attacks to begin with.

That's certainly a hot take. I suppose engaging with such insanity isn't worth my time.

When someone wants a unit to get that many attacks, there will be a way to do so already in the codex.

Right, but we're talking baseline, right?

Remember, we're trying to put baseline Primaris up against baseline "Other Units". Not Primaris + Stratagems + Warlord Traits + Army Bonuses vs "Other Unit" + Stratagems + Warlord Traits + Army Bonuses. That way lies madness, for the combinations are so infinite.

Baseline, a 7 attack Daemonette would kill maybe half a Tactical Marine on the charge. Granted I didn't incorporate Rending into that head math. Rending would probably equate to one for during dying per Daemonette. For a strictly melee unit I don't see that as terribly unreasonable.

Until you have to roll 70 dice for a 10-man unit.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Until you have to roll 70 dice for a 10-man unit.

Orks already get close to that so your point?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Until you have to roll 70 dice for a 10-man unit.

Orks already get close to that so your point?

My 30 girl unit needs to roll 210 dice. You're welcome to sit through it while I roll them. Should we do it in batches of 5? I have big dice and am holding my codex in one hand. You might wanna pull up the latest episode of westworld; I'll have how many wounds I did by the end probably. After that, we'll do my two other 30-girl squads. Oh, and one has +1 attack for the rapturous standard, so they have to roll 240 dice.

EDIT:
Orks are already being targeted by complaints of slowing the game down too much.

 Crimson wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
There's a wonderful passage in one of John Mortimer's novels (Titmuss Regained) where a character muses that music gets uglier as you get older so you won't miss it when you're dead. I'm starting to feel that way about Space Marines. I have ~3 Companies worth or so, and my lingering hopes that there will be Primaris beakies have dwindled to nigh-zilch. On the bright side, all the money I'm not spending on SM has gone to other things.

There are primaris beakies. There is a primaris beakie helmet in the Raven Guard sprue and of course old beakie helmets fit them too. They go particularly well with the phobos armour.

I think I was moreso hoping for a Mk VI Legion kit like the Mk III and Mk IV kits. The Phobos armour, like the Intercessor stuff, just looks 3rd party.

Honestly, the Mark X stuff doesn't really look "third party"...it just looks Great Crusade era. It looks like it's standard issue gear rather than relics handed down over great passages of time.

You can't imagine, right now, Chapters launching missions to recover the wargear of fallen Captain Guy in Phobos Armor. Not yet.

My 30 girl unit needs to roll 210 dice. You're welcome to sit through it while I roll them. Should we do it in batches of 5? I have big dice and am holding my codex in one hand. You might wanna pull up the latest episode of westworld; I'll have how many wounds I did by the end probably. After that, we'll do my two other 30-girl squads. Oh, and one has +1 attack for the rapturous standard, so they have to roll 240 dice.

Dice ... Roller ....APP

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've been genuinely surprised to find out so few people are apparently using them? They're pretty popular in my area. Mind you, I'm not excusing the rules requiring that amount of dice - just saying I don't get why people are taking orks for example, and trying to actually roll so many dice. 8th ed takes long enough as it is.

Is it just a problem of finding an app you trust?

Tycho wrote:

My 30 girl unit needs to roll 210 dice. You're welcome to sit through it while I roll them. Should we do it in batches of 5? I have big dice and am holding my codex in one hand. You might wanna pull up the latest episode of westworld; I'll have how many wounds I did by the end probably. After that, we'll do my two other 30-girl squads. Oh, and one has +1 attack for the rapturous standard, so they have to roll 240 dice.

Dice ... Roller ....APP

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've been genuinely surprised to find out so few people are apparently using them? They're pretty popular in my area. Mind you, I'm not excusing the rules requiring that amount of dice - just saying I don't get why people are taking orks for example, and trying to actually roll so many dice. 8th ed takes long enough as it is.

Is it just a problem of finding an app you trust?

I knew a dice roller app would be brought up. Suffice to say, I prefer rolling physical dice. If I wanted a machine to do the game adjudication for me, I'd just give the game complex and more realistic adjudication and have the machine tell me the results. That is to say, if the game is already so ridiculous that I'm pulling out my phone to adjudicate actions, then why not have an app that does the adjudication for me, and then make the adjudication complex so it's more realistic? Why not make such adjudicator apps proprietary? Say, that's a good way to make money. Just plug your daemonette squad size and target squad and size into the Warhammer™ 40,000 ActionAdjudication™ app that you subscribe to for a buck a month, and it'll tell you what happens and how many Marine casualties to remove! That'd be even faster than rolling each step individually in an app.

Tycho wrote:

My 30 girl unit needs to roll 210 dice. You're welcome to sit through it while I roll them. Should we do it in batches of 5? I have big dice and am holding my codex in one hand. You might wanna pull up the latest episode of westworld; I'll have how many wounds I did by the end probably. After that, we'll do my two other 30-girl squads. Oh, and one has +1 attack for the rapturous standard, so they have to roll 240 dice.

Dice ... Roller ....APP

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've been genuinely surprised to find out so few people are apparently using them? They're pretty popular in my area. Mind you, I'm not excusing the rules requiring that amount of dice - just saying I don't get why people are taking orks for example, and trying to actually roll so many dice. 8th ed takes long enough as it is.

Is it just a problem of finding an app you trust?

It is not just a problem of finding an app.

It is a problem of you have your f***ing phone/tablet out during our game. It's one thing to get a call and step outside and take it, then come back in. It's another thing to be using your devices all game long.

I do not use e-books, and hate them. I do not use apps to replace die rolling, and also hate them.

If I took an App to roll the dice I could as well play on Tabletop simulator.

you might be amazed to find that tabletop wargamers, on average, tend to prefer an analog rather than a digital experience.

and somehow, every other wargame on the market including previous editions of warhammer 40k did not require a volume of dice rolling so as to make such an application necessary.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If I took an App to roll the dice I could as well play on Tabletop simulator.

true. and playing a digital version of the game would be cheaper too. Even if it went for 60$. heck even if you had to buy a phone to play it or a playstation it would cost less then a w40k army.

"Just use an app to roll the dice because we made you have to roll too many" is really not a good argument.

If you're having to roll that many dice in the first place, it probably isn't an interaction that should be determined by rolling dice in the first place.

8th edition just got way out of control on the volume of dice, and it's a direct result of those 2W primaris and all the inflation that came along with it.

"Just use an app to roll the dice because we made you have to roll too many" is really not a good argument.

If you're having to roll that many dice in the first place, it probably isn't an interaction that should be determined by rolling dice in the first place.

8th edition just got way out of control on the volume of dice, and it's a direct result of those 2W primaris and all the inflation that came along with it.

Like I said in my original post - Having an app doesn't excuse the fact that we have to roll (and often re-roll) so many dice in the first place. Ideally the rules themselves get fixed. But since that hasn't happened, and since it isn't even likely to happen, I just thought the fact that there was a free and easy solution might be a good thing? Use the app for large rolls, roll the actual dice for medium to small ones.

you might be amazed to find that tabletop wargamers, on average, tend to prefer an analog rather than a digital experience.

And yet, every single time codexes and updates get brought up the community refrain is "WHY ARENT THEY DIGITAL YET!!!!???"

I realize many (myself included) prefer actual dice and books, but so many people scream about wanting digital books, and yet don't want to use a dice app because "I don't want my phone out during a game". Where's the phone gonna be if your codex is digital? It's definitely not for everyone. I resisted at first too, but it makes games go faster, and since I'm still rolling dice for the medium and smaller rolls, I'm not missing out on that experience. Claiming that the use of a dice app for very large rolls is just a stone's throw away from just "playing table top simulator" is a pretty disingenuous argument that sounds an awful lot like "Get off my lawn!"

To each his own, but I would at least recommend trying it before you knock it. Totally get not finding one you like. I haven't played since quarantine started, but the creatively named "Dice Roller" was pretty popular amongst the horde players in my area pre-lockdown.

It is a problem of you have your f***ing phone/tablet out during our game. It's one thing to get a call and step outside and take it, then come back in. It's another thing to be using your devices all game long.

Airplane mode. And you don't need to use it "all game long". Just for those big rolls where your opponent doesn't want to wait 20 minutes while you roll the 100 shots form that Boyz mob, tally the exploding 6's and reroll those. It isn't nearly as intrusive as I originally thought it would be.

I do not use e-books, and hate them. I do not use apps to replace die rolling, and also hate them.

That's fair. I'm in the same boat. But GW doesn't appear to be listening to those complaints and 9th is looking to double down on most of the mechanics that are currently slowing the game (volume of fire, rerolls, strats etc). As it stands now, 9th is looking to be even SLOWER than 8th. So we need to find solutions or just not play. To each his own, but for me, playing with the app is better than not playing at all, and it's significantly better than needing 100+ dice. Would be better if 100+ dice wasn't a thing, but it is, and I don't see them changing that so there you have it.

Completely anecdotal, but every time someone’s used a dice roller app against me, the results have been outrageous. Like, roll 180 3+ and then he hits 171 times. It just tilts me somehow and I proceed to say next batch you roll manually.

I just can’t completely trust an app like that. Unless it’s on a neutral phone and both players use the same one.

Completely anecdotal, but every time someone’s used a dice roller app against me, the results have been outrageous. Like, roll 180 3+ and then he hits 171 times. It just tilts me somehow and I proceed to say next batch you roll manually.

I just can’t completely trust an app like that. Unless it’s on a neutral phone and both players use the same one.

wow.

That's definitely a problem. lol

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Until you have to roll 70 dice for a 10-man unit.

Orks already get close to that so your point?

Get close= half the dice actually

10 orks have 30-31 attacks in combat and 10-20 shots depending on which ranged weapon are equipped with, and the nob loadout. Also combat isn't guaranteed like shooting so....

Deleted.

 Therion wrote:
Completely anecdotal, but every time someone’s used a dice roller app against me, the results have been outrageous. Like, roll 180 3+ and then he hits 171 times. It just tilts me somehow and I proceed to say next batch you roll manually.

I just can’t completely trust an app like that. Unless it’s on a neutral phone and both players use the same one.

You would probably be more suspicious of that roll with regular dice then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Until you have to roll 70 dice for a 10-man unit.

Orks already get close to that so your point?

Get close= half the dice actually

10 orks have 30-31 attacks in combat and 10-20 shots depending on which ranged weapon are equipped with, and the nob loadout. Also combat isn't guaranteed like shooting so....

That's pretty close actually when we are talking about a theoretical Daemonette with 7 attacks.

Also for the record I'm kinda in favor of Orks getting W2 in their profile.

 Elbows wrote:
Negative, an Ork boy can - under the right circumstances have seven attacks per model. It requires Gaz, a spell, taking the Goff trait....and I think a banner? But they're not exaggerating. Seven attacks is actually possible (technically it's 6 attacks, generating additional hits on rolls of '6' which mathematically gives you the seventh).

So where do we get when models start with 7 attacks base?

And . . . Do we want to enourage that?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, the Mark X stuff doesn't really look "third party"...it just looks Great Crusade era. It looks like it's standard issue gear rather than relics handed down over great passages of time.

You can't imagine, right now, Chapters launching missions to recover the wargear of fallen Captain Guy in Phobos Armor. Not yet.

I'm not saying it's rational. I spent years trimming purity seals and skulls and whatnot off their armour. Now that clean, well-proportioned sci-fi SMs are available I don't want them. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to rationalize that in a way that makes sense.

 Elbows wrote:
Negative, an Ork boy can - under the right circumstances have seven attacks per model. It requires Gaz, a spell, taking the Goff trait....and I think a banner? But they're not exaggerating. Seven attacks is actually possible (technically it's 6 attacks, generating additional hits on rolls of '6' which mathematically gives you the seventh).

A 10 man squad has only 3 attacks base though, it can reach 5 attacks thanks to Warpath (by Weirdboy) and Ghaz aura. If the unit is 20+ they gain another attack. Exploding 6s are possible only if the unit is Goff, which are quite inferior to another clan that buffs melee which is Evil Sunz; in fact Goffs are hands down one of the weakest clans and no one takes it, especially now that Ghaz is available for all clans. So it's a max of 6-7 attack per model BUT we're talking about a 140+ points units with t-shirt save dudes and another additional 347 points of characters. A 500+ points combo for a super fragile melee unit. A unit of boyz that unleash overkill is possible, like is possible to see a Land Raider getting killed by guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Also for the record I'm kinda in favor of Orks getting W2 in their profile.

I'm not, I'd hate W2 orks. I'm all in favor to reduce rate of fire and killyness (AKA reduce dice rolling), not to make things tougher or playing with lesser but stronger models.

 Blackie wrote:

I'm not, I'd hate W2 orks. I'm all in favor to reduce rate of fire and killyness (AKA reduce dice rolling), not to make things tougher or playing with lesser but stronger models.

Lesser but stronger models is meant to be SM in a nutshell.

There is an obvious tradeoff between model point and model price, like someone said it's not fair if I need to shell out $500 on my army to counter $100 of yours, but is it fair to charge $25 per miniatures when others are $0.75?