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In video games and tv shows my favourite characters are the ones who don’t really take meaningful damage / can push through wounds that would kill a normal person and I would like this to be reflected in my army choice. I heard death guard is durable however I don’t like the models that have bloated stomachs such as the two that come in the blightlord terminators kit, does that kit come with alternative torso options or can they be kitbashed easily? Including death guard, I would like to hear your suggestions for armies that can be built as durable with the right subfaction / units as well as the ones that are durable no matter what you pick. Thank you and have a good one.

An infantry based IH list. Iron father feirros gives INFANTRY units within 6" a 5+ inv. An apothecary with CHIEF APOTHECARY and WLT father of the future gives units within 6" a 5+ FNP, can heal wounded models, and bring back killed models. Now add aggressors with T5 W3, inceptors with T5 W3, centurions with T5 W4.

Footslog VH SoB can get the entire army to 4++ immune to AP-2, with a 6+ FNP.

ERJAK wrote:
Footslog VH SoB can get the entire army to 4++ immune to AP-2, with a 6+ FNP.

Still worse than IH tanky infantry builds with the added malus of having a much worse shooting (both accuracy, AP and number of shots if not within 12")

You could build your DG out of other Chaos models or Horus Heresy units. If you search for 30K Death Guard you'll find lots of inspiration for these kinds of armies and they're pretty easy to port to 40K (Space Marines, Terminators, verhicles are the same, basically).

KurtAngle2 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Footslog VH SoB can get the entire army to 4++ immune to AP-2, with a 6+ FNP.

Still worse than IH tanky infantry builds with the added malus of having a much worse shooting (both accuracy, AP and number of shots if not within 12")

VH sisters are much more tanky than IH infantry builds, being practically immune to any form of AP and being 1W models makes them simply too hard to crack, but it is correct that they don't shoot as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, don't build anything that is dependant on blobbing models around an aura. From what we are seeing, 9th edition is not going to be nice for those kind of builds.

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Footslog VH SoB can get the entire army to 4++ immune to AP-2, with a 6+ FNP.

Still worse than IH tanky infantry builds with the added malus of having a much worse shooting (both accuracy, AP and number of shots if not within 12")

VH sisters are much more tanky than IH infantry builds, being practically immune to any form of AP and being 1W models makes them simply too hard to crack, but it is correct that they don't shoot as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, don't build anything that is dependant on blobbing models around an aura. From what we are seeing, 9th edition is not going to be nice for those kind of builds.

With no access to:

T4
5++ via Feirros
5+++ FNP (compared to a 6+++ of VH)
Transhuman Physiology when you need it
Immediate access to cover if you go for a 6+++ instead of a 5+++

Also they need fewer auras to be effective (2 for this defensive setup), whereas for the Sisters build you need:

Imagifier
Saint Celestine
Character with +1 to Invulnerable save

And that's still WORSE than IH Infantry builds...

P.S. Saying that 1W is a "benefit" when you're paying LESS per wound that a Sister (8,5 ppw vs 9 ppm) is utterly wrong

Well it is a point of view, as a 2W weapon can only kill one sister for one wound, but one marine for two wounds. Also, it doesn't matter if you cause half as many wounds by shooting if there are twice as many of you.

Not saying I disagree with you, but presenting your preferences as "correct" rather than as a possible perpsective is just...

(Wait, forgot, this is dakkadakka, and I have accidentally left the P&M section.

As you were)

You can have a full Nidzilla army with -1 to hit and a 6+++, all 2+/3+ and at least 1/3 of them 4++ as well.

 Fifty wrote:
Well it is a point of view, as a 2W weapon can only kill one sister for one wound, but one marine for two wounds. Also, it doesn't matter if you cause half as many wounds by shooting if there are twice as many of you.

Not saying I disagree with you, but presenting your preferences as "correct" rather than as a possible perpsective is just...

(Wait, forgot, this is dakkadakka, and I have accidentally left the P&M section.

As you were)

Except that the FNP has inherently MORE VALUE the more wounds the target has, and that's not just "preferences" but basic game mechanics.
Also remember that you don't actively lose firepower when a model is wounded but not killed, whereas each unsaved wound in the case of sisters equals a loss of shots and therefore offensive power.

Doesn't matter.

We are talking infantry lists here. The opponent has AT weapons and he will point them at something. Sisters don't offer any real target, IH do. An aggressor is an excellent target for a lascannon, thermal cannon, Ion cannon relic and similar stuff.

Also, IH can achieve that setup in a 6" area, while Sisters can replicate most of it just with a 35 point imagifier. Having your whole army with ignore AP-2 is something that no faction can equal at the moment. You shoot my little 1W models with AT weapons or they are gonna save on 3+ (2+ in cover).

IH inf comes out on top only against S4 no AP and by a little margin against S4 AP-1. Against everything else sisters tank more.

Flooding the board with VH sisters is a legit tactic which has won many games. Never heard of an IH infantry list tanking his way to victory.

Sister can't replicate with a 35 points imagifier all the auras an IH infantry block has (which for defence it's just 2 models), it just adds "also ignore AP-2) which is good but not the same as a 5++ AND 5+++.
IH still has Transhuman Physiology so it doesn't really tell anything saying that "your opponent can just shoot all his antitank at this Primaris like models) when you can Transhuman and shrug another 66% wounds off it thanks to Invulnerable AND FNP

Prophets of Flesh or Artificers of Flesh grotesque blobs are good for this feeling. T6 W4 6+++ and either a 4++ or 5++ and -1 to the enemies damage stat (min 1).

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Sister can't replicate with a 35 points imagifier all the auras an IH infantry block has (which for defence it's just 2 models), it just adds "also ignore AP-2) which is good but not the same as a 5++ AND 5+++.
IH still has Transhuman Physiology so it doesn't really tell anything saying that "your opponent can just shoot all his antitank at this Primaris like models) when you can Transhuman and shrug another 66% wounds off it thanks to Invulnerable AND FNP

The 4++ is actually not really useful most of the time, so yes, they can replicate. When i said that they lose only against S4 AP0 and S4AP-1, i meant that they do that using only the imagifier, without the other buffs.

Transhuman physiology works on one unit only and against an AT weapon just gives them a -1 to wound. Having FNP on a multiwound model is actually WORSE in this situation, since the D6 damage weapons will rarely go into overdamage. A sister simply by being a 1W model takes 72% less damage from D6 weapons, and 66% less by D3 weapons compared to an aggessor (and you still save them AT LEAST on 6++, not counting miracles).

By the way, 5++ and 5+++ combined is 55%, not 66%.

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Sister can't replicate with a 35 points imagifier all the auras an IH infantry block has (which for defence it's just 2 models), it just adds "also ignore AP-2) which is good but not the same as a 5++ AND 5+++.
IH still has Transhuman Physiology so it doesn't really tell anything saying that "your opponent can just shoot all his antitank at this Primaris like models) when you can Transhuman and shrug another 66% wounds off it thanks to Invulnerable AND FNP

The 4++ is actually not really useful most of the time, so yes, they can replicate. When i said that they lose only against S4 AP0 and S4AP-1, i meant that they do that using only the imagifier, without the other buffs.

Transhuman physiology works on one unit only and against an AT weapon just gives them a -1 to wound. Having FNP on a multiwound model is actually WORSE in this situation, since the D6 damage weapons will rarely go into overdamage. A sister simply by being a 1W model takes 72% less damage from D6 weapons, and 66% less by D3 weapons compared to an aggessor (and you still save them AT LEAST on 6++, not counting miracles).

By the way, 5++ and 5+++ combined is 55%, not 66%.

You're also missing the fact that any multidamage weapon actually denies your 6+ FNP since you'll be needing multiple sixes to save each wounded sister (which can also be AP-3 and if you're not paying for 4++ you are outright removing both your paid defenses); this without taking in consideration that you're also T3 with no real melee capabilities (both in attacks, strenght and ws), which is ANOTHER reason Sisters haven't really been winning anything from their release date 'till March.

As a BA player, I can confirm that FNP on single wound models is almost worthless.

There was a quite similar threat a while ago:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788440.page

and as I said there something hilarious (but really not competetive like the sisters, IH or Death Guard idea) would be an Imperial Guard Ogryn horde:

3 Primaris Psykers (Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier, mental fortitude) - 138 Points
AND/OR 3 Astropaths (laspistols, Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier, mental fortitude) - 45 points (?, not sure with the price tag at the moment)
3x Ogryn Bodyguard (Bullgryn Plate, Slab shield/Brute shield, Ripper gun) - 150 points
3 x 9 Bullgryns (Slab shield, Bullgryn maul) - 42 x 27 = 1134 points
3 x Command Squad (Medipack) => 87 points
3 x Tempestus Command Squad (Medipack) => 123 points
Use the rest of the points for Commissars, Commanders and Infantrysquads to fullfill the requirements for the 3 Command Squads and detachments

=> that's a loooot of T5, W3-6, Sv 2+ OR 4++ models (and as long as the unit is mixed, you can decide if a 2+ or a 4++ dude takes the hit) running around, further buffed by defensive Psykers (that are protected by the Bodyguards) and potentially brought back from death by the medipacks.
It's definitly not very competetive but very sturdy and even - kind of - fluffy. Unleash the Abhumans Mwhaahahahaha


In a variation of that you could leave the Medipacks and instead fill up with some Ogryns. They don't have a 4++/2+ but they are more pretty cheap T5 W3 models.

Thread on durable infantry
CTRL + F
"Necrons"
0 results

/sad :(

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Sister can't replicate with a 35 points imagifier all the auras an IH infantry block has (which for defence it's just 2 models), it just adds "also ignore AP-2) which is good but not the same as a 5++ AND 5+++.
IH still has Transhuman Physiology so it doesn't really tell anything saying that "your opponent can just shoot all his antitank at this Primaris like models) when you can Transhuman and shrug another 66% wounds off it thanks to Invulnerable AND FNP

The 4++ is actually not really useful most of the time, so yes, they can replicate. When i said that they lose only against S4 AP0 and S4AP-1, i meant that they do that using only the imagifier, without the other buffs.

Transhuman physiology works on one unit only and against an AT weapon just gives them a -1 to wound. Having FNP on a multiwound model is actually WORSE in this situation, since the D6 damage weapons will rarely go into overdamage. A sister simply by being a 1W model takes 72% less damage from D6 weapons, and 66% less by D3 weapons compared to an aggessor (and you still save them AT LEAST on 6++, not counting miracles).

By the way, 5++ and 5+++ combined is 55%, not 66%.

You're also missing the fact that any multidamage weapon actually denies your 6+ FNP since you'll be needing multiple sixes to save each wounded sister (which can also be AP-3 and if you're not paying for 4++ you are outright removing both your paid defenses); this without taking in consideration that you're also T3 with no real melee capabilities (both in attacks, strenght and ws), which is ANOTHER reason Sisters haven't really been winning anything from their release date 'till March.

Your point would be true if the game had a good amount of high AP low damage weapons. Since that template ot weapons doesn't practically exist in the game, I don't see the problem. Sister's defenses are a win win without vulnerable points, you either waste high value shots on mono wound models, or go through a 3+ save. Run the math against the common weapons and you will see that an Aggressor in your setup bleeds points twice as fast against a burstide than a sister. Thunderfire cannon? Aggressors bleed more. Leviathan? Same result. Missile pods? Same.

And i'm still counting only the imagifier, without the other 2 auras (one by the way, the imagifier can grant the invul save if you want). The only case where the auras become really useful is against high AP damage 2 weapons, like exocrines, disintegrators and similar stuff.

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Sister can't replicate with a 35 points imagifier all the auras an IH infantry block has (which for defence it's just 2 models), it just adds "also ignore AP-2) which is good but not the same as a 5++ AND 5+++.
IH still has Transhuman Physiology so it doesn't really tell anything saying that "your opponent can just shoot all his antitank at this Primaris like models) when you can Transhuman and shrug another 66% wounds off it thanks to Invulnerable AND FNP

The 4++ is actually not really useful most of the time, so yes, they can replicate. When i said that they lose only against S4 AP0 and S4AP-1, i meant that they do that using only the imagifier, without the other buffs.

Transhuman physiology works on one unit only and against an AT weapon just gives them a -1 to wound. Having FNP on a multiwound model is actually WORSE in this situation, since the D6 damage weapons will rarely go into overdamage. A sister simply by being a 1W model takes 72% less damage from D6 weapons, and 66% less by D3 weapons compared to an aggessor (and you still save them AT LEAST on 6++, not counting miracles).

By the way, 5++ and 5+++ combined is 55%, not 66%.

You're also missing the fact that any multidamage weapon actually denies your 6+ FNP since you'll be needing multiple sixes to save each wounded sister (which can also be AP-3 and if you're not paying for 4++ you are outright removing both your paid defenses); this without taking in consideration that you're also T3 with no real melee capabilities (both in attacks, strenght and ws), which is ANOTHER reason Sisters haven't really been winning anything from their release date 'till March.

Your point would be true if the game had a good amount of high AP low damage weapons. Since that template ot weapons doesn't practically exist in the game, I don't see the problem. Sister's defenses are a win win without vulnerable points, you either waste high value shots on mono wound models, or go through a 3+ save. Run the math against the common weapons and you will see that an Aggressor in your setup bleeds points twice as fast against a burstide than a sister. Thunderfire cannon? Aggressors bleed more. Leviathan? Same result. Missile pods? Same.

And i'm still counting only the imagifier, without the other 2 auras (one by the way, the imagifier can grant the invul save if you want). The only case where the auras become really useful is against high AP damage 2 weapons, like exocrines, disintegrators and similar stuff.

Sure, keep believing in your mantra. Meanwhile nobody had strong placements with "your idea" thrown around and I seriously doubt it will ever be the case in the 9TH ruleset

P.S Also in the "Thunderfire comparison" Primaris have the advantage of not losing firepower if one model stays alive with 1 HP (and the opportunity cost of this is so little that it's always worth it)

THUNDERFIRE COMPARISON

I expect people already mentioned sisters of battle of course, and marines, but they probably ( I confess I ain't read every post) forgot to mention the resilientest (sort of not, but ok) army ever.
Pure Gaurd, Imperial.
Crusaders are 4+/3++ and can go down to 2++ with a spell from a nearby astropath.
Bullygryn can go down to -1 saves (no lie) with the right combinaiton of cover, spells, and strategems. Stop and ponder who wants to try to kill 30 woudns worth of -1 save bullygryns, seriously.
scions can be granted a 4+ (their normal) and 5++ invuln shield (they get the invuln from being near a lambda lions warlord with the relic generator) and with a friendly psyker helping, they can be dropped to an astonishing 1+ in cover (4+ -1 cover -1 spell -1 stragetem and a 4++ backup -- fully the equal of a squad of 10 sisters. You can't do the WHOLE army that way, but you can pick a crucial spot to make really hard to drop.
A couple ogryn bodygaurds and a couple cheapish lord commisars with powerfists can lurk behind the main infantry units to heroically intervene during melee -- and they are 2+ armor (3 wounds) or 4++ armor respecitvely. As cheap as they are, you can end up with maybe an elite detachment of gaurd like this.
tempesotr prime with artifact
lord commisar with powerfist and bolterpist
10 man scion squad (all hotshotlasguns) (sarge has a powerfist)
astropath
ministerium priest
6 crusaders
2 ogryn bodygaurd

It may not look like "resilience" but you can stick it in cover, spell buff defense, and use the commis / obg / obg as a trio to step in and help fight in melee. Surprisingly good for a small addition -- cause someone coming at you with a thunderhammer probably won't be thinking "I can't kill all them scions, not even in several rounds fighting"... Sure, its not as simple as throwing a couple thunderhammers on a couple squads of ironhands and throwing them forward near some leadership, but it is SO much more satisfying when someone with a bunch of terminators gets their ass handed to them by gaurd in melee. So much more! (also don't forget take cover only lowers their save vs shooting, not vs melee. But even so, its pretty cool, eh?)


Marines probably do this sort of stuff better, sure, and deathgaurd is more gooder at it, and iron hands have their fnp and all sorts of shenanigans (like cogitated martyrdom) to make their stuff harder to harm, but I present the above as a useful set of available choices, in case you don't want to JUST be stuck playing primaris ironhands to get an army that isn't shot off the board round 1.

While I also think the Sisters idea would work I have to say regarding this argument:

Your point would be true if the game had a good amount of high AP low damage weapons

uncharged Plasma... S7, AP -3, D1. Exactly what is needed to kill systers, without the usual downside of plasma as charging is pointless against SoB. And a lot of armies have access to plasma.
Also the Scions from the Lambdan Lions all have Hot Shot guns with AP-3, so you can build whole armies with nothing but AP-3 D1 weapons

It's not an "idea" it's literally the most played sister's army and it has a really good win rate.

Sorry I worded poorly. I did not want to imply that it was just an idea in the sense of "seldom tried" but meant that I think it is a legit answer to the topics question.

Death Guard.

Oh, wait...

Yeah, Iron Hands is the way to go.

Maybe Custodes once their PA launches?

Spoletta wrote:
It's not an "idea" it's literally the most played sister's army and it has a really good win rate.

It's the most played because it's the most competitively viable, but in terms of power level it's not even one of the strongest lists you could face and it's bound to be worse with 9th ruleset

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
It's not an "idea" it's literally the most played sister's army and it has a really good win rate.

It's the most played because it's the most competitively viable, but in terms of power level it's not even one of the strongest lists you could face and it's bound to be worse with 9th ruleset

If you have insight on the 9th meta please share it.

Right now the sisters are one of the few non marine factions with higher than 50% win rate.

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
It's not an "idea" it's literally the most played sister's army and it has a really good win rate.

It's the most played because it's the most competitively viable, but in terms of power level it's not even one of the strongest lists you could face and it's bound to be worse with 9th ruleset

If you have insight on the 9th meta please share it.

Right now the sisters are one of the few non marine factions with higher than 50% win rate.

-laughs in Tyranids-

Custodes can be very tough but really need their Forge World stuff to be an army, without the maneuverability and firepower it offers they're usable but difficult and one-dimensional.

I find vehicle-based lists can be quite tough, especially if you've got some kind of army-wide damage mitigation and a lot of inexpensive T7+ vehicles. Mechanized Alaitoc, for instance, where you've got a bunch of Wave Serpents that are -1 to hit from a distance.

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
It's not an "idea" it's literally the most played sister's army and it has a really good win rate.

It's the most played because it's the most competitively viable, but in terms of power level it's not even one of the strongest lists you could face and it's bound to be worse with 9th ruleset

If you have insight on the 9th meta please share it.

Right now the sisters are one of the few non marine factions with higher than 50% win rate.

The thing is Sisters are this odd ball design thay seems to be basically designed to hard counter Marines with their free mass Ap-2 but vrs other builds they lack the depth of army construction to actually put out enough damage

While Marines can go super tanky with Iron Hands or pile into damage output with Imperial fists or Mobility/flexibility Ultramarines. They still have the damage output to hang with every codex in the game while not maximising their damage output.