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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





ERJAK wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.


Do the opposite of this because the primaris stuff looks better and all oldmarine vehicles look like shoeboxes people glued guns to.


And new primaris vehicles look like shoeboxes people glued even extra guns to, then handed to a 5yr old to "modify"
   
Made in fi
Posts with Authority






I like scouts alot from a fluff perspective. If there's only around a thousand marines per chapter, logic would dictate that majority of marine casualties must be scouts. Which is why I always field a bunch of them.

However, the models are pretty meh and proportions are goofy af. Wouldn't mind new kits for them. Am kinda warming up to the idea of using Necromunda enforcers as scout proxies, especially when I get more Primaris units to my army.

But the legacy vehicles shouldn't get lost in time. An RT era Land Raider is an iconic and intrinsinc part of 40K aesthetics, along with the Corvus armour and Tactical Dreadnought Armour. I can only hope GW realizes this (they probably do, given how much RT-retro nostalghia the 9th ed logo, zoats etc evoke)

Codex-wise, I am sure they can all still fit in. Current dexes are very bloaty, just skim off the redundant lore and illustrations, you could easily fit double the amt of datasheets into the same amount of pages. Just leave most of the artwork & fluff to the collectors editions, I'm sure most players wouldn't mind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/14 18:15:02


"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" 
   
Made in us
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Tacoma, WA, USA

 bullyboy wrote:
With 9th, we are getting a slew of new units for Primaris marines..

Captain, Ancient, and Lt will probably just have options added to existing choices in single data slate
Judiciar
Assault Intercessors
Bladeguard Veterans
Eradicators
Outriders
Invader ATV
Firestrike turret
Landspeeder seen in other pictures

Now add that to existing options for marines, the codex is just going to get ridiculously out of control. At what point does GW branch off primaris into it's own dex and leave the old marines to current dex (before legends)?
I do understand that the Primaris line still has significant gaps and so you can't remove it just yet, but the choices are certainly getting out of hand.
That's easy. Never.

At some point, GW will stop producing some of the old marine kits and they will drift off into Legends during a new codex printing. However, don't hold your breath for this happening. Before they can do that, they need to produce a "replacement" unit for every non-vehicle marine in Codex Space Marines, Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Wolves, and Codex Deathwatch. Then they can release a new Codex Space Marines along with new Supplement to replace both the existing Supplements and for BA/DA/SW/DW.
   
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NE Ohio, USA

Martel732 wrote:

Marines should have far fewer vehicles. They fight at the battalion level if they are lucky. Battalions are not this heavily customized. They'd have one APC, one MBT, etc. But instead, marines have like 13 types of dreads alone.


I don't know what Battalion you're comparing SMs to - real world? fictional? your own head cannon?, - but SURPRISE! In the 40k universe of late 8th ed/9th ed, according to the company that makes the game, Space Marines ARE this customized.
And they're that customized (especially for dreads you hate so much) because it sells.

Besides is this really a problem?
You aren't forced to use any of these options when building your lists.
You definitely don't need to worry about the cost$ of producing/selling/stocking the kits. That's GWs problem. And maybe the the local stores.
In competitive play? This "bloat" largely solves itself as you only see the most effective units. So it's kinda like playing with no options.
Does it really really bother you that people not concerned with tourneys/WAAC make use of options you'd personally never touch with a 10' pole?

Oh, "Balance". You're about to go on about balance.... How so many options makes it hard for poor GW to balance things. Except GW doesn't care much about this in the first place.
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 alextroy wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
With 9th, we are getting a slew of new units for Primaris marines..

Captain, Ancient, and Lt will probably just have options added to existing choices in single data slate
Judiciar
Assault Intercessors
Bladeguard Veterans
Eradicators
Outriders
Invader ATV
Firestrike turret
Landspeeder seen in other pictures

Now add that to existing options for marines, the codex is just going to get ridiculously out of control. At what point does GW branch off primaris into it's own dex and leave the old marines to current dex (before legends)?
I do understand that the Primaris line still has significant gaps and so you can't remove it just yet, but the choices are certainly getting out of hand.
That's easy. Never.

At some point, GW will stop producing some of the old marine kits and they will drift off into Legends during a new codex printing. However, don't hold your breath for this happening. Before they can do that, they need to produce a "replacement" unit for every non-vehicle marine in Codex Space Marines, Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Wolves, and Codex Deathwatch. Then they can release a new Codex Space Marines along with new Supplement to replace both the existing Supplements and for BA/DA/SW/DW.


They're much of the way there already:

Captain -> Primaris Captain
Captain in Terminator Armour, Captain in Cataphracti Armour -> Captain in Gravis Armour
Captain on Bike -> No current equivalent
Lieutenants -> Primaris Lieutenants
Librarian -> Primaris Librarian
Librarian in Terminator Armour -> No Gravis Librarian yet
Chaplain -> Primaris Chaplain
Chaplain in Terminator Armour -> No Gravis Chaplain yet
Techmarine - > No current equivalent

Primaris add the various Phobos HQs Marines don't have.

Tactical Squad -> Intercessor Squad
Scout Squad -> Infiltrators/Incursors, Eliminators, Reivers

Apothecary -> Primaris Apothecary
Ancient -> Primaris Ancient
Company Champion -> Judiciar
Company Veterans/Sternguard Veterans -> No current equivalent
Terminators, Assault Terminators, Cataphracti Terminators, Taratros Terminators, Centurion Assault Squad -> Aggressors
Vanguard Veterans -> Bladeguard Veterans
Dreadnought, Ironclad Dreadnought, Venerable Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought, Invictor Warsuit

Bike Squad, Scout Bike Squad -> Outriders
Assault Squad -> Assault Intercessors
Landspeeder, Landspeeder Storm -> Leaked Primaris Landspeeder
Attack Bike -> Invader ATV

Devastator Squad -> Hellblasters, Eradicators, Suppressors
Thunderfire Cannon -> Firestrike Servo Turret
Hunter/Stalker -> Impulsor with AA turret.
Whirlwind -> No current equivalent
Predator/Vindicator -> Repulsor Executioner
Land Raider/LRC/LRR, Razorback -> Repulsor
Rhino -> Impulsor
Drop Pod -> No current equivalent
Stormhawk/Stormtalon -> No current equivalent
Stormraven -> No current equivalent


The only really glaring gap in the range is the lack of any Primaris aircraft.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




ccs wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Marines should have far fewer vehicles. They fight at the battalion level if they are lucky. Battalions are not this heavily customized. They'd have one APC, one MBT, etc. But instead, marines have like 13 types of dreads alone.


I don't know what Battalion you're comparing SMs to - real world? fictional? your own head cannon?, - but SURPRISE! In the 40k universe of late 8th ed/9th ed, according to the company that makes the game, Space Marines ARE this customized.
And they're that customized (especially for dreads you hate so much) because it sells.

Besides is this really a problem?
You aren't forced to use any of these options when building your lists.
You definitely don't need to worry about the cost$ of producing/selling/stocking the kits. That's GWs problem. And maybe the the local stores.
In competitive play? This "bloat" largely solves itself as you only see the most effective units. So it's kinda like playing with no options.
Does it really really bother you that people not concerned with tourneys/WAAC make use of options you'd personally never touch with a 10' pole?

Oh, "Balance". You're about to go on about balance.... How so many options makes it hard for poor GW to balance things. Except GW doesn't care much about this in the first place.


The company is simply wrong. And I know its for sales. But it makes no sense at all.

"Besides is this really a problem?"

Yes, it's a problem because that's taking away finite resources from other factions that should be and would be more varied.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 13:21:41


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




tauist wrote:
I like scouts alot from a fluff perspective. If there's only around a thousand marines per chapter, logic would dictate that majority of marine casualties must be scouts. .

Ugh. From a fluff perspective scouts are awful. Send your most inexperienced young adults out on a job that's absolutely vital, but they have no skills for and give them less gear. That makes no sense at all.

Space wolves are the only ones that make even an attempt at doing scouts properly (though they're still under equipped) and Black Templars are the only ones that make any sense when it comes to trainees.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 13:31:27


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 Asmodai wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Spoiler:
 bullyboy wrote:
With 9th, we are getting a slew of new units for Primaris marines..

Captain, Ancient, and Lt will probably just have options added to existing choices in single data slate
Judiciar
Assault Intercessors
Bladeguard Veterans
Eradicators
Outriders
Invader ATV
Firestrike turret
Landspeeder seen in other pictures

Now add that to existing options for marines, the codex is just going to get ridiculously out of control. At what point does GW branch off primaris into it's own dex and leave the old marines to current dex (before legends)?
I do understand that the Primaris line still has significant gaps and so you can't remove it just yet, but the choices are certainly getting out of hand.
That's easy. Never.

At some point, GW will stop producing some of the old marine kits and they will drift off into Legends during a new codex printing. However, don't hold your breath for this happening. Before they can do that, they need to produce a "replacement" unit for every non-vehicle marine in Codex Space Marines, Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Wolves, and Codex Deathwatch. Then they can release a new Codex Space Marines along with new Supplement to replace both the existing Supplements and for BA/DA/SW/DW.


They're much of the way there already:

Captain -> Primaris Captain
Captain in Terminator Armour, Captain in Cataphracti Armour -> Captain in Gravis Armour
Captain on Bike -> No current equivalent
Lieutenants -> Primaris Lieutenants
Librarian -> Primaris Librarian
Librarian in Terminator Armour -> No Gravis Librarian yet
Chaplain -> Primaris Chaplain
Chaplain in Terminator Armour -> No Gravis Chaplain yet
Techmarine - > No current equivalent

Primaris add the various Phobos HQs Marines don't have.

Tactical Squad -> Intercessor Squad
Scout Squad -> Infiltrators/Incursors, Eliminators, Reivers

Apothecary -> Primaris Apothecary
Ancient -> Primaris Ancient
Company Champion -> Judiciar
Company Veterans/Sternguard Veterans -> No current equivalent
Terminators, Assault Terminators, Cataphracti Terminators, Taratros Terminators, Centurion Assault Squad -> Aggressors
Vanguard Veterans -> Bladeguard Veterans
Dreadnought, Ironclad Dreadnought, Venerable Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought, Invictor Warsuit

Bike Squad, Scout Bike Squad -> Outriders
Assault Squad -> Assault Intercessors
Landspeeder, Landspeeder Storm -> Leaked Primaris Landspeeder
Attack Bike -> Invader ATV

Devastator Squad -> Hellblasters, Eradicators, Suppressors
Thunderfire Cannon -> Firestrike Servo Turret
Hunter/Stalker -> Impulsor with AA turret.
Whirlwind -> No current equivalent
Predator/Vindicator -> Repulsor Executioner
Land Raider/LRC/LRR, Razorback -> Repulsor
Rhino -> Impulsor
Drop Pod -> No current equivalent
Stormhawk/Stormtalon -> No current equivalent
Stormraven -> No current equivalent


The only really glaring gap in the range is the lack of any Primaris aircraft.

I'll argue Aggressors are not really a proper Terminator replacement, or at least not enough different units to replace them given the number of units for Scouts and Devestators. We also still have Devastator weapons that need units introduced to replace, like Missile Launchers and Grav weapons.

Then there is the matter of the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch units that need to be replaced. Can't have Primaris only Blood Angels until they release a proper jump-pack assault marine unit (no Intercepters do not fit the bill).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 13:32:00


 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 alextroy wrote:
 Asmodai wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Spoiler:
 bullyboy wrote:
With 9th, we are getting a slew of new units for Primaris marines..

Captain, Ancient, and Lt will probably just have options added to existing choices in single data slate
Judiciar
Assault Intercessors
Bladeguard Veterans
Eradicators
Outriders
Invader ATV
Firestrike turret
Landspeeder seen in other pictures

Now add that to existing options for marines, the codex is just going to get ridiculously out of control. At what point does GW branch off primaris into it's own dex and leave the old marines to current dex (before legends)?
I do understand that the Primaris line still has significant gaps and so you can't remove it just yet, but the choices are certainly getting out of hand.
That's easy. Never.

At some point, GW will stop producing some of the old marine kits and they will drift off into Legends during a new codex printing. However, don't hold your breath for this happening. Before they can do that, they need to produce a "replacement" unit for every non-vehicle marine in Codex Space Marines, Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Wolves, and Codex Deathwatch. Then they can release a new Codex Space Marines along with new Supplement to replace both the existing Supplements and for BA/DA/SW/DW.


They're much of the way there already:

Captain -> Primaris Captain
Captain in Terminator Armour, Captain in Cataphracti Armour -> Captain in Gravis Armour
Captain on Bike -> No current equivalent
Lieutenants -> Primaris Lieutenants
Librarian -> Primaris Librarian
Librarian in Terminator Armour -> No Gravis Librarian yet
Chaplain -> Primaris Chaplain
Chaplain in Terminator Armour -> No Gravis Chaplain yet
Techmarine - > No current equivalent

Primaris add the various Phobos HQs Marines don't have.

Tactical Squad -> Intercessor Squad
Scout Squad -> Infiltrators/Incursors, Eliminators, Reivers

Apothecary -> Primaris Apothecary
Ancient -> Primaris Ancient
Company Champion -> Judiciar
Company Veterans/Sternguard Veterans -> No current equivalent
Terminators, Assault Terminators, Cataphracti Terminators, Taratros Terminators, Centurion Assault Squad -> Aggressors
Vanguard Veterans -> Bladeguard Veterans
Dreadnought, Ironclad Dreadnought, Venerable Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought, Invictor Warsuit

Bike Squad, Scout Bike Squad -> Outriders
Assault Squad -> Assault Intercessors
Landspeeder, Landspeeder Storm -> Leaked Primaris Landspeeder
Attack Bike -> Invader ATV

Devastator Squad -> Hellblasters, Eradicators, Suppressors
Thunderfire Cannon -> Firestrike Servo Turret
Hunter/Stalker -> Impulsor with AA turret.
Whirlwind -> No current equivalent
Predator/Vindicator -> Repulsor Executioner
Land Raider/LRC/LRR, Razorback -> Repulsor
Rhino -> Impulsor
Drop Pod -> No current equivalent
Stormhawk/Stormtalon -> No current equivalent
Stormraven -> No current equivalent


The only really glaring gap in the range is the lack of any Primaris aircraft.

I'll argue Aggressors are not really a proper Terminator replacement, or at least not enough different units to replace them given the number of units for Scouts and Devestators. We also still have Devastator weapons that need units introduced to replace, like Missile Launchers and Grav weapons.

Then there is the matter of the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch units that need to be replaced. Can't have Primaris only Blood Angels until they release a proper jump-pack assault marine unit (no Intercepters do not fit the bill).


This sort of weird backwards thinking is the issue though, they don't need missile launchers, or grav weapons, or a terminator that's a bit bigger. If you simply removed the OG marines all you'd see a lack of now is a plane or possibly artillery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 13:35:29


 
   
Made in us
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BA don't necessarily need primaris jump packs
   
Made in au
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Wouldn't you then need to create two different codexes for Blood angels, dark angels and space Wolves?

They have almost as much units as normal marines and also get access to all primaris stuff.

You basically double the number of marine books...

   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consolidation of unit entries would solve this problem really easy. Centurions do not need to be in two separate profiles. Terminators don't need 4. We don't need 9+ different Captains.

I actually kind of disagree on the general sentiment. You consolidate all seven Captain profiles then instead of the bloat of seven different cards you have one enourmously bloated card with seven different stat lines and seven different sets of wargear options on it, a lot of which are mutually exclusive.

The same applies to Terminators and Centurions. Tartaros and Cataphracii have different stats. Ranged and assault terminators have mutuallu exclusive wargear. The same is true of Centurions, and that's not even mentioning that Dev and Assault Cents are in different parts of the org chart.

It's just cleaner to have them on separate cards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 13:40:29


   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




 bullyboy wrote:
With 9th, we are getting a slew of new units for Primaris marines..

Captain, Ancient, and Lt will probably just have options added to existing choices in single data slate
Judiciar
Assault Intercessors
Bladeguard Veterans
Eradicators
Outriders
Invader ATV
Firestrike turret
Landspeeder seen in other pictures

Now add that to existing options for marines, the codex is just going to get ridiculously out of control. At what point does GW branch off primaris into it's own dex and leave the old marines to current dex (before legends)?
I do understand that the Primaris line still has significant gaps and so you can't remove it just yet, but the choices are certainly getting out of hand.


Well, at this point the only gaps in the Primaris line are Terminator and Vanguard Vets EQ and jump pack HQs unless I'm missing something. That and some options for some kits (Shield Dome for the Repulsor to turn it into a heavy assault transport and an "Ironclad" loadout for the Redemptor would be nice. Also more options to kit out Primaris HQs). So I feel OldMarines can be resigned into Legends pretty soon (or just use them counts-as for their Primaris equivalent). Then consolidate SW/BA/DA into the main dex and reduce them to supplement level like the other First Founding chapters. I say this as a Space Wolf player by the way, less special snowflake chapters means that all 10 First Founding chapters can continue to receive supplement- level rules support.

edit: Ah, wait, I missed the Bike HQs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 13:58:12


 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consolidation of unit entries would solve this problem really easy. Centurions do not need to be in two separate profiles. Terminators don't need 4. We don't need 9+ different Captains.

I actually kind of disagree on the general sentiment. You consolidate all seven Captain profiles then instead of the bloat of seven different cards you have one enourmously bloated card with seven different stat lines and seven different sets of wargear options on it, a lot of which are mutually exclusive.

The same applies to Terminators and Centurions. Tartaros and Cataphracii have different stats. Ranged and assault terminators have mutuallu exclusive wargear. The same is true of Centurions, and that's not even mentioning that Dev and Assault Cents are in different parts of the org chart.

It's just cleaner to have them on separate cards.

Or they could handle loyalist terminators the same way they do csm terminators: one data sheet with all the weapon options, tartaros and cataphractii are aesthetic options with the same stats. Or, fare is fare, make the Heresy patterns an option for the marines who actually fought in the Heresy.
   
Made in us
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Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.




Insectum wins the internet.



Seriously though - I don't think they ever will split the book. I think it's more likely that over the next few marine codexes, we see Primaris units "retiring" firstborn units in the fluff. This would result in firstborn units slowly being removed from the codex until they are gone. This will still take years and multiple codexes though.

I think it's safe to say that gong forward, there will be no new firstborn models or units, and they're not going to go to the trouble of outputting a codex that they (and the player base) know will never be updated with anything new. Likely, if they ever DID do that, it would happen in conjunction with the announcement that firstborn have officially been moved to legends ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Consolidation of unit entries would solve this problem really easy. Centurions do not need to be in two separate profiles. Terminators don't need 4. We don't need 9+ different Captains.
Pretty much agreed. We don't have a separate datasheet for jump pack Captains. Why do we need separate ones for Terminator/Bike Captains? Just throw in a clause that says "A Captain may take a Bike. This gives them the <Biker> keyword, changes their Move to 12", and changes their T to 5. The bike is equipped with a twin-linked bolter". or something like that.

Though I wouldn't also mind Terminators getting a consolidated profile, I'm not sure Centurions should - they have different FOC roles, don't they?
 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.

Except Primaris look objectively better than the rescaled stuff. Also the statline makes more sense.
As others have said, it's absolutely not objectively better. And that's me talking as a Primaris fan.


Nightlord1987 wrote:You can ditch all the Old Marines as long as we keep Scouts.

I like having a fluffy team of Noobs.

They're starting to push away from the Cawls Surprise Unnumbered Sons, so new recruits have to come from somewhere right?

Or are all the 1st foundings just gonna stop taking recruits from their homeworlds?

Please GW, dont write yourselves into a corner with this.
Space Marines still use Scouts. In the main Codex, they go through the line of an inducted Primaris Marine, who starts out as a Scout Marine. If oldMarines WERE to be ditched, Scouts, Land Raiders, and Stormravens we know explicitly still exist even in Primaris-only Chapters (the latter two appearing in the Silver Templars, an all-Primaris Chapter).


They/them

 
   
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The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consolidation of unit entries would solve this problem really easy. Centurions do not need to be in two separate profiles. Terminators don't need 4. We don't need 9+ different Captains.

I actually kind of disagree on the general sentiment. You consolidate all seven Captain profiles then instead of the bloat of seven different cards you have one enourmously bloated card with seven different stat lines and seven different sets of wargear options on it, a lot of which are mutually exclusive.

The same applies to Terminators and Centurions. Tartaros and Cataphracii have different stats. Ranged and assault terminators have mutuallu exclusive wargear. The same is true of Centurions, and that's not even mentioning that Dev and Assault Cents are in different parts of the org chart.

It's just cleaner to have them on separate cards.

We don't need different rules for the different Mks of Terminators though! It's LITERALLY unnecessary, especially when we don't have different rules for the different Mks of Power Armor. Basically all the wargear is already shared! Centurions is easy: the consolidated profile goes into the Heavy Support slot.

It really isn't cleaner to do it GWs way. It basically never is.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consolidation of unit entries would solve this problem really easy. Centurions do not need to be in two separate profiles. Terminators don't need 4. We don't need 9+ different Captains.

I actually kind of disagree on the general sentiment. You consolidate all seven Captain profiles then instead of the bloat of seven different cards you have one enourmously bloated card with seven different stat lines and seven different sets of wargear options on it, a lot of which are mutually exclusive.

The same applies to Terminators and Centurions. Tartaros and Cataphracii have different stats. Ranged and assault terminators have mutuallu exclusive wargear. The same is true of Centurions, and that's not even mentioning that Dev and Assault Cents are in different parts of the org chart.

It's just cleaner to have them on separate cards.

We don't need different rules for the different Mks of Terminators though! It's LITERALLY unnecessary, especially when we don't have different rules for the different Mks of Power Armor. Basically all the wargear is already shared! Centurions is easy: the consolidated profile goes into the Heavy Support slot.

It really isn't cleaner to do it GWs way. It basically never is.

That's a nice slippery slope, there is literally no reason for anything to have different rules besides lore and appearance. Why does a Scout have a different profile than a Scion? Why does a Russ have a different profile than a Predator? Why does a Conscript have a different profile than a Guardsman when they're literally the same model? Lore and apperance. "Mk III armor has exactly the same rules as Mk VI armor so Cataphracii Terminators should have the same rules as modern Terminators" is actually a less valid argument than "Cataphracii Terminators have different rules than modern Terminators, so Mk III armor should have different rules than Mk VI armor".

Terminators do not share all the wargear. Tartarus are faster and they're the only ones that can carry the Reaper AC, Plasma Blaster, and Volkite Charger. Cataphracii have a penalty to Advance rolls and a better base invuln save. Modern Terminators can't carry the Grenade Harness. Of the two modern units only the Assault Terminators can take weapons besides the Power Sword on the sergeant. Heresy-era Terminators can mix all their melee and ranged options, modern termies cannot. Put it all on one sheet and you either have to add a lot of weird "only these options are legal together" text or you significantly increase the flexibility of the base unit. GW doesn't seem to want to do the latter, and so long as they want those units to have slightly different base capabilities then the way they've divided the cards makes sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 16:27:28


   
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Just have one profile for terminators, and give them access to weapon option in all kits. Then people can build their models based on what look they like, instead of rules and equip them how they like.

   
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The Great State of New Jersey

Pretty sure GW confirmed over the weekend that legacy/firstborn marines would NOT be getting Legendsed and would still be in the codex.

I expect GW is going to keep the firstborn marines around as long as they still see a certain level of community support behind those minis (i.e. people still showing up to tournaments with them, social media posts featuring them, etc.), but I expect they will begin scaling back production of those kits in time before finally quietly sidelining them and then officially Legendsing them. If 9th lasts a full edition cycle (~5 years) then I expect 10th will probably be the end of them.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
Pretty sure GW confirmed over the weekend that legacy/firstborn marines would NOT be getting Legendsed and would still be in the codex.

I expect GW is going to keep the firstborn marines around as long as they still see a certain level of community support behind those minis (i.e. people still showing up to tournaments with them, social media posts featuring them, etc.), but I expect they will begin scaling back production of those kits in time before finally quietly sidelining them and then officially Legendsing them. If 9th lasts a full edition cycle (~5 years) then I expect 10th will probably be the end of them.


I concur.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

One of the things I like about vanilla Space Marines is how many options I have available.

Why wouldn't I want different rules for different styles of Terminator armor? I'd say there aren't enough yet since I don't have rules for my Fire Drakes for 40k.

Sure, some things should be consolidated just to remove redundancy. But then you run into tournament rule sets like Ars Bellica that tell you to go feth yourself if your Codex has any kind of consolidated datasheets, or the Rule of 3 in general (although it's not as aggravating as AB) - I'd rather have a datasheet for Bolter Devastators, one for Multimelter Devastators and so on if that means I get treated the same way as e.g. Eldar that have separate datasheets for each weapon type, basically.
   
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nekooni wrote:
Why wouldn't I want different rules for different styles of Terminator armor? I'd say there aren't enough yet since I don't have rules for my Fire Drakes for 40k.
Unique rules are one of those things a lot of players seem to like, but which don't really do anything to improve gameplay and actively work against any attempts at balance and accessibility.

I suppose on that front it was a shame that GW didn't just introduce primaris as new-scale marines using the regular marine rules (and perhaps used 8th ed as a point to jump all marines to primaris stats)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 16:53:57


 
   
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Powerful Ushbati





United States

 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.


Squat minimarines and move on with Primaris. Fixed it for ya.

Yank the band aid so we can all move on.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Togusa wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.


Squat minimarines and move on with Primaris. Fixed it for ya.

Yank the band aid so we can all move on.


They just invented Legends so they wouldn’t have to squat stuff and literally invented the whole „Primaris“ thing so the new models wouldn’t „replace“ the old Tacticals, etc.. and could be played side-by-side by people that want to do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:10:38


 
   
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The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consolidation of unit entries would solve this problem really easy. Centurions do not need to be in two separate profiles. Terminators don't need 4. We don't need 9+ different Captains.

I actually kind of disagree on the general sentiment. You consolidate all seven Captain profiles then instead of the bloat of seven different cards you have one enourmously bloated card with seven different stat lines and seven different sets of wargear options on it, a lot of which are mutually exclusive.

The same applies to Terminators and Centurions. Tartaros and Cataphracii have different stats. Ranged and assault terminators have mutuallu exclusive wargear. The same is true of Centurions, and that's not even mentioning that Dev and Assault Cents are in different parts of the org chart.

It's just cleaner to have them on separate cards.

We don't need different rules for the different Mks of Terminators though! It's LITERALLY unnecessary, especially when we don't have different rules for the different Mks of Power Armor. Basically all the wargear is already shared! Centurions is easy: the consolidated profile goes into the Heavy Support slot.

It really isn't cleaner to do it GWs way. It basically never is.

That's a nice slippery slope, there is literally no reason for anything to have different rules besides lore and appearance. Why does a Scout have a different profile than a Scion? Why does a Russ have a different profile than a Predator? Why does a Conscript have a different profile than a Guardsman when they're literally the same model? Lore and apperance. "Mk III armor has exactly the same rules as Mk VI armor so Cataphracii Terminators should have the same rules as modern Terminators" is actually a less valid argument than "Cataphracii Terminators have different rules than modern Terminators, so Mk III armor should have different rules than Mk VI armor".

Terminators do not share all the wargear. Tartarus are faster and they're the only ones that can carry the Reaper AC, Plasma Blaster, and Volkite Charger. Cataphracii have a penalty to Advance rolls and a better base invuln save. Modern Terminators can't carry the Grenade Harness. Of the two modern units only the Assault Terminators can take weapons besides the Power Sword on the sergeant. Heresy-era Terminators can mix all their melee and ranged options, modern termies cannot. Put it all on one sheet and you either have to add a lot of weird "only these options are legal together" text or you significantly increase the flexibility of the base unit. GW doesn't seem to want to do the latter, and so long as they want those units to have slightly different base capabilities then the way they've divided the cards makes sense.

So you're telling me no Chapter ended up with 4 sets of each armor for a while and therefore they wouldn't be able to field even a 5 man squad of Terminators? LOL okay then. I'd rather just the flexibility so that we can get rid of 3 whole entries (technically 4 with the two different Terminator Captains which is unnecessary). It's extreme arbitrary differences that don't do anything good for the game.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

A.T. wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Why wouldn't I want different rules for different styles of Terminator armor? I'd say there aren't enough yet since I don't have rules for my Fire Drakes for 40k.
Unique rules are one of those things a lot of players seem to like, but which don't really do anything to improve gameplay and actively work against any attempts at balance and accessibility.


The incredible amount of options in factions, units, wargear, subfactions and so on is what drives 40k for me. If I wanted to trade that in for better balance, I'd play a different game. I'm not saying that I dislike balance, but I'm not willing to sacrifice these options on the altar of balance. Especially when the balance issues don't stem from having 3 types of Ancients, but from GW being unable to manage their own rules. Who exactly thought that -3 modifiers tohit or the rules Iron Hands got initially in their supplement were remotely balanced? That's just incompetency, nothing else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:31:26


 
   
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Congrats you have a bunch of false choices. At its peak, pathfinder had like 1000 feats, but the same ones were used over and over. 5 meaningful choices is better than one optimal choice and 19 false choices
   
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Aachen

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats you have a bunch of false choices. At its peak, pathfinder had like 1000 feats, but the same ones were used over and over. 5 meaningful choices is better than one optimal choice and 19 false choices

I don't play in tournaments, so I am not forced into cookie cutter builds. I try to cycle through all of my Salamanders though, and that works pretty well. I don't want to run the same list over and over again, just because it's the optimal choice - this isn't like World of Warcraft where all you do is play one set of feats per balance patch. Back in the day you had false choices there because they weren't choices - you HAD to take the optimal feats, and you had like 1 or 2 actual choices that were completely pointless, though.

Cataphractii terminators are sufficiently different from regular terminators, though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:47:20


 
   
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats you have a bunch of false choices. At its peak, pathfinder had like 1000 feats, but the same ones were used over and over. 5 meaningful choices is better than one optimal choice and 19 false choices

Pathfinder isn't about building an optimal character. Your group could agree to play all Tier 4 classes, or Tier 3 with sufficiently unoptimized spell and feat choices, and likely end up having a better time playing as the monsters and campaigns weren't balanced against only ever seeing optimized tier 1 and 2 builds. Those bad feats also open builds that allow for emulation of characters from other properties even if the implementation of the rules means that character is less then optimal. Give choices to those that wish to use them.

Also, cutting rules that are 'dead weight' means that GW may as well hand each faction 3 prebuilt lists, move building your own army into casual play, and boil any sort of balanced play down to getting the first turn and having the paper to your opponent's rock.
   
 
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