How much does the Imperium know about spirit stones? Have they used this knwledge to their advntage?

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**-Guardsman-**

Are there Imperial institutions (e.g. Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, psykers, etc.) who know the importance and implication of spirit stones to the Eldar?

I think this knowledge would be tremendously useful to the Imperium, because spirit stones make good hostages or bargaining chips. E.g. the Imperium could make the Eldar back down from a fight by offering them the return of captured spirit stones, or simply by threatening to destroy the stones (and condemn the souls within to be devoured by She Who Thirsts).

Spirit stones create a very real avenue for diplomacy between the Imperium and Eldar, since the Imperium stands nothing to gain from destroying them while the Eldar are hell-bent on recovering them. And yes, I know the official Imperium party line is "exterminate all xenos", but in practice, the Imperium often has to delay a war ("not now, Eldar, we've got our hands full with a tyranid invasion") or adopt a temporary enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend stance.

.

**Lord Zarkov**

In the Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor there was an Inquisitor who built a soul stone into his helmet to use it for divination so at least some of the Inquisition mess around with them. IIRC Czevak also made some comments about how Ianden ghost warriors worked. It would expect therefore the Ordo Xenos to have a generally good idea of what they are and what they are for.

The Eldar unsurprisingly take a very dim view of people messing with them though and are rather prone to disproportionate retribution in such cases - there was a story in WD when the 3rd Ed codex came out about an Imperial governor that turned the spirit stones of a diplomatic delegation into jewellery- the craftworld they belonged to wiped out the imperial colony, blew up the planet for good measure and, having captured said governor, found some harlequins to take him to Commorragh where the Haemonculi kept him alive as disembodied organs for a few thousand years in punishment.

**Kroem**

-Guardsman- wrote:
he Imperium stands nothing to gain from destroying them.

Have you met the Imperium? They value ideological purity over practicality and pragmatism. Only the Inquisition would be likely to/ able to offer such a bargain to pernicious Xenos!

**pm713**

Lord Zarkov wrote:
In the Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor there was an Inquisitor who built a soul stone into his helmet to use it for divination so at least some of the Inquisition mess around with them. IIRC Czevak also made some comments about how Ianden ghost warriors worked. It would expect therefore the Ordo Xenos to have a generally good idea of what they are and what they are for.

The Eldar unsurprisingly take a very dim view of people messing with them though and are rather prone to disproportionate retribution in such cases - there was a story in WD when the 3rd Ed codex came out about an Imperial governor that turned the spirit stones of a diplomatic delegation into jewellery- the craftworld they belonged to wiped out the imperial colony, blew up the planet for good measure and, having captured said governor, found some harlequins to take him to Commorragh where the Haemonculi kept him alive as disembodied organs for a few thousand years in punishment.

Ouch. Dark Eldar seem to crop up now and again to be used as "we hate you but we won't torture you because they'll do it better" device for other factions.

The thing to remember is that in universe Eldar are barely known about. Noble citizens who can afford education think they're myths and even amongst Inquisitors and Marines the fact that Eldar are split amongst radically different factions is expert level knowledge. Based on that I'd doubt most people have a clue what spirit stones are beyond weird gems unless they have an expert source to consult. Diplomacy isn't really an option considering that Eldar recover spirit stones after battles so they can't really be taken in significant number and even then there's the issue of why would Eldar negotiate for their dead when they can kill you and take them anyway?

If you wanted to negotiate then the best bet is to trade empty soul stones but that's not exactly easy for the Imperium.

**harlokin**

Imperial Official: "Listen Xenos filth, I have your 'Spirit Stones', and I know that you will do whatever I want to spare their destruction"

Archon: ".....Yes Mon-keigh, of course, we are in your power, just don't hurt those stone things....pleeeease"

**-Guardsman-**

pm713 wrote:
Based on that I'd doubt most people have a clue what spirit stones are beyond weird gems unless they have an expert source to consult.

Or an Eldar prisoner to interrogate. All Eldar know what spirit stones are, so literally any Eldar could reveal that knowledge to the Imperium.

Besides, I'm not talking about that "most people" know. I'm talking about the people who can actually do something with that knowledge, such as the Ordo Xenos.

Diplomacy isn't really an option considering that Eldar recover spirit stones after battles

Assuming they win the battle. What if the Eldar force is wiped out in its entirety, or forced to retreat in the face of overwhelming numbers?

even then there's the issue of why would Eldar negotiate for their dead when they can kill you and take them anyway?

Well... when you're a dying race, you have to make cautious decisions.

.

**pm713**

How are you going to interrogate the prisoner? Even assuming you catch one which is easier said than done, you don't speak their language and they don't speak yours, you can't just mind read because they're that alien and even if you cross that language barrier you need to understand Eldar myth because that's woven into their language. At that point you basically have or are an expert already.

As for the people who know things well enough to have the idea they're either the result of centuries of personal fanaticism so they'll discount choosing to work with Eldar immediately or they're radical enough there's a risk of a puritan shooting them.

Not assuming they win. Eldar can always come back and collect them. The Imperium just leaves them lying around and Eldar can easily sneak back.

Have you ever read Eldar lore? They're beyond arrogant. They'll murder a planets government then go back to talk to the successors thinking they can waltz in and have a chat then be upset the locals tried to kill them.

**Mr Morden**

-Guardsman- wrote:
Are there Imperial institutions (e.g. Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, psykers, etc.) who know the importance and implication of spirit stones to the Eldar?

I think this knowledge would be tremendously useful to the Imperium, because spirit stones make good hostages or bargaining chips. E.g. the Imperium could make the Eldar back down from a fight by offering them the return of captured spirit stones, or simply by threatening to destroy the stones (and condemn the souls within to be devoured by She Who Thirsts).

Spirit stones create a very real avenue for diplomacy between the Imperium and Eldar, since the Imperium stands nothing to gain from destroying them while the Eldar are hell-bent on recovering them. And yes, I know the official Imperium party line is "exterminate all xenos", but in practice, the Imperium often has to delay a war ("not now, Eldar, we've got our hands full with a tyranid invasion") or adopt a temporary enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend stance.

.

Its been used as a plot device quite a few times - I even wrote and got published a Necromunda campaign for them had Eldar trying to find some.

Occassionally a Inquisitor or Rogue Trader might have both the inclination and knowledge but its very rare.

**Duskweaver**

The Grey Knights seem to understand the significance of spirit stones.

**harlokin**

I think that offering to return some might be a basis for diplomacy, but threatening to destroy them would be a death sentence.

**-Guardsman-**

pm713 wrote:
How are you going to interrogate the prisoner? Even assuming you catch one which is easier said than done, you don't speak their language and they don't speak yours, you can't just mind read because they're that alien and even if you cross that language barrier you need to understand Eldar myth because that's woven into their language. At that point you basically have or are an expert already.

You don't actually need to know the exact purpose of spirit stones. All you need to know is that the Eldar will do anything to retrieve them intact, and bam, you've got a powerful bargaining chip. Also, it's very likely that a human psyker can detect the consciousness within the spirit stone.

And regarding the language issue, let's not pretend that Eldar-human communications are unprecedented in the fluff. Hell, the Drukhari have millions of mon'keigh slaves.

As for the people who know things well enough to have the idea they're either the result of centuries of personal fanaticism so they'll discount choosing to work with Eldar immediately or they're radical enough there's a risk of a puritan shooting them.

You're exaggerating. Even Guilliman has collaborated with Yvraine. "Kill the alien" is the official dogma, but in the shadows, there are people (Ordo Xenos, rogue traders, High Lords of Terra) who realize that the Imperium cannot always stand alone against the rest of the universe, and that there is such a thing as a lesser evil.

Not assuming they win. Eldar can always come back and collect them. The Imperium just leaves them lying around and Eldar can easily sneak back.

Well, now your reasoning is getting circular. You said "The Imperium can't collect the spirit stones because the Eldar always pick them up after the battle", and then you said "The Eldar always pick up the spirit stones because the Imperium won't collect them even when they have the chance".

Even if the spirit stones are not collected by the Imperium as a matter of policy, I could imagine Imperial soldiers or deserters picking them up for themselves, just because they look valuable and make beautiful battle trophies. Granted, commissars probably take a dim view of this, but some Imperial armies operate under less scrutiny than others.

Have you ever read Eldar lore? They're beyond arrogant. They'll murder a planets government then go back to talk to the successors thinking they can waltz in and have a chat then be upset the locals tried to kill them.

I think both the Imperium and the Eldar are capable of more pragmatism and common sense than you give them credit for. Sure, aggressiveness and arrogance may be the rule, but that's a long way from saying that deals or truces between the two factions are unthinkable.

I know we're attached to our Grim Darkness™, but the fluff simply does not support the idea that the Imperium always makes the worst possible choices for everyone including themselves. Only most of the time.

.

**Hellebore**

Duskweaver wrote:
The Grey Knights seem to understand the significance of spirit stones.

'
One of the few bits of Ward-era grey knight material I actually like. For all the faults i find in Ward's work during 5th (it actually completely turned me away from 40k for 10 years...), it was clear GW was trying to soften the xenophobia a little so they could build more interesting stories and alliances. During that early time the writing was dreadful, with blood angel necron alliances etc that were just unconvincing.

IMO they've gotten a lot better at creating mutually beneficial scenarios for alliances, which is a good thing storywise as it creates more space and greater shades of grey. This particular example is an early one IMO done right.

**ScarletRose**

harlokin wrote:
I think that offering to return some might be a basis for diplomacy, but threatening to destroy them would be a death sentence.

Pretty much this - seems like trying to use leverage against the Eldar is a good way to get cut into tiny cubes by a web of monofilament. Or worse, like the Inquisitor in Lord of Night (spoiler for the book's twist):

Spoiler:

I do think the return of spirit stones could be an opening olive branch for someone smart enough to use it, but in addition to all the other issues raised I'd add there's a communication issue as well. Eldar spend their time away from the Imperium, in space or the webway, and a guard commander can't exactly pick up the vox and say "Yes connect me to the Exarch please". If the Eldar show up maybe you can talk to them, but they're not approachable otherwise.

**BlaxicanX**

The Imperium knows absolutely nothing about spirit stones. Individual scholars and inquisitors probably know quite a bit.

**solkan**

Yeah, I think the important thing is that the Imperium isn't exactly the sort of place that cultivates a culture of sharing concerning the information concerning Xenos.

Otherwise, trying to hold soul stones hostage for leverage with the Elder would probably go over about as well as trying to hold geneseed hostage for leverage with a Space Marine chapter. And both scenarios would have similar issues:
- Both spirit stones and geneseed are going to be obscure information concerning a relatively obscure group.
- The unknown risks of accidental damage.
- Disproportionate retribution

And, in the case of spirit stones, has it been established how much firepower they can withstand? As in, if you're facing a human holding a handful of spirt stones, what weapons can you safely fire at the human without risking damage to the stones? That's going to be pretty vital knowledge in this sort of situation.

**Voss**

The Cain book 'Choose Your Enemies' revolves around spirit stones in nominally imperial hands.

Cain thinks of them as eldar 'good luck charms,' Inquisitor Amberley refers to them as 'something to do with their funeral rites, and that they believe the stones protect their souls from Slaanesh. Somehow.

So a Xenos Inquisitor knows vaguely what they're for, but not how they work. (They get a bit more info as the book goes on, but some of the details are still lost on her at the end).

But even some random troopers know that eldar will hunt you down if they believe you're carrying spirit stones, and aren't happy with orders to collect them.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

There’s also the difference between Waystones and Spirit Stones.

The former are those worn by all Craftworld Eldar. They’re intended as temporary depositories for the soul, should anything happen to the wearer. And those have a certain ill defined ‘shelf life’. They are not a permanent home.

From there, they’re incorporated into the Infinity Circuit, where the Spirits will remain, until required.

A Soul Stone is what you coax a spirit into in order to pilot a Construct, be it Wraithguard, Lord, Knight or even a Titan.

With that in mind, it’s likely rare to get your hands on an actual Soul Stone, let alone know what it is you’ve got.

**pm713**

-Guardsman- wrote:
pm713 wrote:
How are you going to interrogate the prisoner? Even assuming you catch one which is easier said than done, you don't speak their language and they don't speak yours, you can't just mind read because they're that alien and even if you cross that language barrier you need to understand Eldar myth because that's woven into their language. At that point you basically have or are an expert already.

You don't actually need to know the exact purpose of spirit stones. All you need to know is that the Eldar will do anything to retrieve them intact, and bam, you've got a powerful bargaining chip. Also, it's very likely that a human psyker can detect the consciousness within the spirit stone.

And regarding the language issue, let's not pretend that Eldar-human communications are unprecedented in the fluff. Hell, the Drukhari have millions of mon'keigh slaves.

As for the people who know things well enough to have the idea they're either the result of centuries of personal fanaticism so they'll discount choosing to work with Eldar immediately or they're radical enough there's a risk of a puritan shooting them.

You're exaggerating. Even Guilliman has collaborated with Yvraine. "Kill the alien" is the official dogma, but in the shadows, there are people (Ordo Xenos, rogue traders, High Lords of Terra) who realize that the Imperium cannot always stand alone against the rest of the universe, and that there is such a thing as a lesser evil.

Not assuming they win. Eldar can always come back and collect them. The Imperium just leaves them lying around and Eldar can easily sneak back.

Well, now your reasoning is getting circular. You said "The Imperium can't collect the spirit stones because the Eldar always pick them up after the battle", and then you said "The Eldar always pick up the spirit stones because the Imperium won't collect them even when they have the chance".

Even if the spirit stones are not collected by the Imperium as a matter of policy, I could imagine Imperial soldiers or deserters picking them up for themselves, just because they look valuable and make beautiful battle trophies. Granted, commissars probably take a dim view of this, but some Imperial armies operate under less scrutiny than others.

Have you ever read Eldar lore? They're beyond arrogant. They'll murder a planets government then go back to talk to the successors thinking they can waltz in and have a chat then be upset the locals tried to kill them.

I think both the Imperium and the Eldar are capable of more pragmatism and common sense than you give them credit for. Sure, aggressiveness and arrogance may be the rule, but that's a long way from saying that deals or truces between the two factions are unthinkable.

I know we're attached to our Grim Darkness™, but the fluff simply does not support the idea that the Imperium always makes the worst possible choices for everyone including themselves. Only most of the time.

.

1. That still requires communication and Dark Eldar slaves aren't exactly talked to. They're there for torture.

2. In almost all situations where the Imperium works with Xenos, including Yvraine/Guilliman, there's very little choice. The situations where they work together are when the option is to die or take the help. There's a significant gap between that and actively seeking alien help. Plus I think you're underestimating how crazy some people are about the dogma considering some people would kill Navigators for being mutants and the Imperium would literally collapse without them.

3.I've phrased that poorly. The Imperium doesn't generally pick up spirit stones in large quantities after a battle because they don't know the value of them beyond pretty gems. They don't have the opportunity to go back to old battlefields because by the time they've been in contact with someone who does know their value the Eldar will have had chance to sneak back and pinch them.

4. Not unthinkable but extremely unlikely. I'm not even exaggerating that bit about killing the government and coming back for a chat.

Edit: As I understand it spirit stones, waystones and soul stones are all the same thing just with different names.

**harlokin**

I agree, at least in the stuff I've read, Spirit Stones, Soul Stones, and Waystones are terms used interchangeably.

**Lord Zarkov**

WRT the communication issue it does seem a good chunk of the Eldar (both/all three sorts) speak Gothic - potentiality even most of the mid-high ranking ones as basically every story that involves both Eldar and Imperials involve the Eldar speaking it (often with complaints about ‘sullying their tongues’ and the like).

For the craftworlders possibility their telepathy aides in in somehow, as the Dark Eldar seem to do rather less speaking gothic and not as far down the rank structure (though that might be since they occur less frequently in books).

**Dolnikan**

I would presume that imperial forces, should they win a battle, wouldn't just let the xenos remnants remain where they are and pollute the place. It seems very likely to me that they would destroy them to prevent any taint from spreading, probably by at least burning the corpses and the like. So that could already see the stones destroyed.

And knowing how soldiers behaved historically, I would assume that lots of spirit stones and other shinies would get looted by the triumphant guardsmen. After all, they are shiny and could get you a couple of drinks or the like.

And now I'm imagining an eldar in disguise running a bar for soldiers to get spirit stones back.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

harlokin wrote:
I agree, at least in the stuff I've read, Spirit Stones, Soul Stones, and Waystones are terms used interchangeably.

Same material, different purposes.

Waystones are worn by the living, to ensure their soul doesn’t fall into Slaanesh’s mitts should the worst happen. These are temporary, and should last long enough for the contents to be placed in the Infinity Circuit/World Spirit.

Soul stones/Spirit Stones are used to animate Wraithbone constructs.

**Bran Dawri**

Dolnikan wrote:

And now I'm imagining an eldar in disguise running a bar for soldiers to get spirit stones back.

That would make for an awesome story!

**DominayTrix**

Trading soulstones for things the Imperium wants could make for an interesting story. A rogue trader/Inquisitor/governor/Magos has a deal to trade soulstones for STC's. It starts off with simple or small amounts like 50 soulstones for better farm tools etc. Eventually it turns into more soulstones for more important STCs like more durable boots or slightly better lasgun batteries. Finally, a huge deal for an immense amount of soulstones in exchange for something like the cure to marine-pattern baldness or a stable plasma gun is made and other parties ruin it one way or another. Something along the lines of Dank Eldar steal the soulstones and give them an STC that releases super flying aids or something. The less tolerant parts of the Inquisition/Admech seize control of all the other STCs because the Eldar clearly can't be trusted so they are never seen or heard of again. The Imperial person who arranged the deal is killed horribly by either the Imperium for heresy or the Eldar who just found out they gave a huge stash of soulstones to the wrong Eldar.

Although to answer your question, it probably varies greatly depending on how high ranking the person is and how involved with the Eldar they are. I imagine the Eldar are pretty secretive even by their standards over "these stones are the only thing stopping us from eternal painful torture in the afterlife so please don't mess with them." Deathwatch techmarines are probably going to have a few stories about playing with them. The Deathwatch RPG has an Iron Hands tech marine named Xerill who interacts with Aeldari and Necron technology extensively.

**Voss**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
harlokin wrote:
I agree, at least in the stuff I've read, Spirit Stones, Soul Stones, and Waystones are terms used interchangeably.

Same material, different purposes.

Waystones are worn by the living, to ensure their soul doesn’t fall into Slaanesh’s mitts should the worst happen. These are temporary, and should last long enough for the contents to be placed in the Infinity Circuit/World Spirit.

Soul stones/Spirit Stones are used to animate Wraithbone constructs.

I'm curious where this distinction is coming from, source-wise. Can you trace it to a particular book?

Like harlokin and pm713, I can't think of anything that makes that distinction. And few that even use the other terms.

**Apologist**

The separate terms are familiar from White Dwarf 127, the 'god's-eye view' of Eldar culture, though I don't think the distinction is quite as clear-cut. Salient quotes:

Spirit stones are glassy spheres which are warm to the touch. They respond to the psychic emanations of anyone who holds them, glowing brightly in the hands of a mighty Bonesinger, blue if touched by a Farseer, and red or orange if handled by a Warlock. [...] A spirit stone is a tool which allows a Bonesinger to draw raw energy from the warp and shape it into [...]Wraithbone.

In order to save their souls from destruction by Slaanesh, every Eldar wears a small spirit stone called a Waystone. If the Eldar dies his psychic self is absorbed by the Waystone. The Waystone can then be taken back to the Eldar's own Craftworld and embedded into the Wraithbone core where it will grow into a larger spirit stone.

[...]souls can leave the Infinity Circuit for a shore while by entering Waystones which are then placed within robot bodies. The soul contained in the Waystone animates the robot body and enables the dead Eldar to move about the Craftworld and even fight alongside the living in the form of Wraithguard.

As far as I'm aware, I don't think there's been a huge amount of detail on Spirit Stones beyond the broad strokes here, but happy to read some more up-to-date material.

+Edited for atrocious typos+

**Vaktathi**

While it's clear that parts of the Imperium know exactly what spirit stones are, their value would be highly variable depending on whatever Eldar threat posted was around, and if those people have any say in things (or care). I suspect the Eldar would not let themselves be held hostage in this manner, nor would the Imperium view returning them as anything short of heretical treachery in any but the most extreme circumstances or at the highest levels if involving conventional combatants (e.g. Guard, Navy, most SM's, etc). Rogue Traders and Inquisitors might be different.

That said, Eldar are not immune to capture and interrogation, interspecies communication is by no means impossible. The matter just isn't terribly relevant most of the time. The Eldar know the score when they go into battle or go on raids/operate as corsairs. I expect most of the time the unrecovered stones are just tossed on the heap with the rest of the corpses and unclean Xenos equipment and burned without any special attention.