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How do 10 intercessors get 40 shots with auspex scan ? They get 20 with bolt rifles, and 30 with auto bolt rifles.
Rapid Fire Strat.
I knew you would say rapid fire strat. You cant use rapid fire in the opponents turn, only in your shooting phase. Read the rules first, before posting incorrect numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 16:40:03
lol, you are aware that the orkz literally don't do half the stuff you complained about taking time yet you rolled more reactionary dice then the bloody unit would roll for attacks yes that is hyperbolic but still-
Thats weird, because one ork player does it exactly like i described. 2x30 boys advance towards me, 1 unit of 30 boys gets da jumped, sometimes they make the charge, sometimes they dont. 10 intercessors with auspex scan cant kill 30 boys.
So, why don't you just tie down/countercharge those boyz who made the charge and gun down the rest? Maybe you just need to rethink your strategy?
50 intercessors roll less dice than 200 orks, even with reroll everything, and reroll 1s to wound.
Only if you willfully ignore the fact that intercessors shoot multiple times per game, while most boyz fight only once before dying.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I think you guys are using the wrong horde army as an example. Many hordes are fine. But IG hordes move individual squad of 10, roll for numbers of shots, rerolll numbers of shots because every tank is made on catachan, issue orders, get rerolls on hits sometimes, etc.
Also, one of the powerful marine types, the Box BA archetype, doesn't shoot all.
I think this problem is too varied to be generalized as vanilla marine vs Ork.
lol, you are aware that the orkz literally don't do half the stuff you complained about taking time yet you rolled more reactionary dice then the bloody unit would roll for attacks yes that is hyperbolic but still-
Thats weird, because one ork player does it exactly like i described. 2x30 boys advance towards me, 1 unit of 30 boys gets da jumped, sometimes they make the charge, sometimes they dont. 10 intercessors with auspex scan cant kill 30 boys.
So, why don't you just tie down/countercharge those boyz who made the charge and gun down the rest? Maybe you just need to rethink your strategy?
50 intercessors roll less dice than 200 orks, even with reroll everything, and reroll 1s to wound.
Only if you willfully ignore the fact that intercessors shoot multiple times per game, while most boyz fight only once before dying.
Gotta work that tripiont bro. Nothing say "Ork" like only putting one model within charge range on the charge turn!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 16:43:08
p5freak wrote: Thats not whats going to happen. If the marine player gets T1 the ork player will set up his boys more than 36" away. 50 intercessors will roll 0 dice.
Once again, please remind me how he sets up 36" away and still has a 100% chance to charge T2?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Gotta work that tripiont bro. Nothing say "Ork" like only putting one model within charge range on the charge turn!
I know, but with the strategy his opponent seems to be running, there is one unit of boyz stuck to a unit of intercessors after T1 and two somewhere in mid-field barreling towards them. In that case all my regular marine opponents concentrate fire on the mobs still upfield and them charge everything with a pair of fists into the tripointing boyz mob to finish it off - best case they leave one or two alive and are save from shooting themselves. Primaris with shock assault are no joke for boyz. That's basically why you usually hide two mobs and put one in the tellyporta - boyz don't survive crossing the board against marines, and deep striking T2 is still better than moving across the board.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 16:50:06
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
xeen wrote: I think you exactly right. If you watch the Table Top Tactics guys vox cast talking about play testing 9th (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLM6O6Aglc) you can see a consistent theme from GW. Play the game faster. The Blast rule is just an extension of that. It 1. helps reduce large squads faster (reducing the number of models being moved, dice rolled etc.) and 2. discourages you from relying on large squads as the base of your army as you know they will get killed quicker, harder to hide etc. Now you can debate whether this is fair or not to the player who wants to bring 3 x 30 mobs of whatever, but clearly GW is trying to discourage this for, what I think, is the purpose of faster games.
The easiest way to discourage ork players from taking 3 mobs of 30 would be making boyz mobs of 12 or 20 viable so we can go back to trukkboyz and battlewagon boyz. *wanting to play 30 boyz* has nothing to do with it, the rules right now force you to play 30 boyz or 0.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 16:57:06
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Mr.Omega wrote: Personally I've found the blast weapon adjustments to be baffling, for a couple reasons.
Spoiler:
For one, in my entire time playing 8th I very rarely saw anyone play a horde army, especially compared to my experience with previous editions. That I can recall, in 8th I only ever lost to someone playing a horde once and it was an Ork army that worked around the super mobility of old Ghazghkull, Da Jump and Storm Boys. I vaguely recall it being before the Astra Militarum Codex dropped but I'm not sure.
Secondly, especially from the perspective of someone that plays Guard, I've found hordes to be pretty terrible this edition since the moment the Commissar nerf dropped. I ranted at length about this in another thread a while back, but the gulf in effectiveness and efficiency between Guardsmen and something like Custodes is so ridiculously big that unless you're going to try squeeze like 200 Guardsmen on the board and bore your opponent into submission the only reason to take 50-80 Guardsmen or is because you want more chaff to throw onto objectives and more bubblewrap to guard fire support with. I certainly stopped taking any upgrades, priests and extra officers after my experience with custodes. Some people raised the point that the same issue exists with Primaris, which I'm not going to argue against anymore tbh.
They made it impossible to take combined squads, nerfed Conscripts into uselessness, and then gave Commissars a big fat nerf as well. It was understandable that there needed to be some changes what with the nonsense of 150 pt, 50 man fearless conscript blobs at the start of the edition, but instead of carefully adjusting it and fixing it, GW just took a sledgehammer to the whole issue and piled on so many nerfs that noone in their right mind would even bother with the playstyle anymore.
Oh and finally, between the abundance of multi-shot weapon units (hello, aggressors) that wipe the floor with hordes anyway, and the fact that I spent the better part of this edition dumping well over half of my points into tanks and artillery to pretty good success, it comes across as completely pointless to me. I started playing Russ spam at the very end purely to counter annoying elite model armies with supertough fire support (Knights, Callidus tanks, etc) and now as a free bonus that list is now well suited to curbstomping hordes seeing as how every one of my Russes now gets an automatic 12 shots against any mob of greater than 10 dudes. Oh and as another bonus my tanks can shoot into melee with merely a -1 to hit too now so any poor person playing hordes against me can't even rely on the oldest trick in the book in tying up my stuff in melee, which in a number of tournament games against non-hordes this edition otherwise basically signalled the end of the match for me.
Since about last April I've mainly been playing X-wing purely because I'm tired of the monotony of the game. Every single tournament the main challenge had been working out how to spam high strength/ap/damage guns harder than my opponent can and then gambling that I blew up their heaviest thing before they blew up my heaviest Russes.
I played one game in January I believe where in the first round I lost initiative against a guy with a Knight Crusader, 2-3 Callidus tanks and minimum investment skitarii. It was a clustered urban board with heavy obscurement on one side and I ended up losing my 200+ pt Knight Commander Pask in an executioner on turn one because the Crusader was within range of him by a margin of one inch with the melta and because he fired before Pask did. I then lost at least another Russ to the Callidus tanks. And that signalled game over basically with the rest being going through the motions. Probably the most competitive list I faced this edition that I can remember.
And the reason I had a lot of success this edition is because about 80% of the time I was the one making other people feel like they were going through the motions because I deleted 400~ pts of hard hitters on turn one instead.
But no according to GW the pressing issue is hordes and that multi-shot high strength/ap/damage weapons aren't powerful enough.
Sigh.
Your also playing on of the armies best suited to spamming Mass Random shot,high strength, medium damage shooting.
If you take grinding advance away from Russ's as most other armies have to contend with and it becomes flat D6 shots without catachan rerolls etc D6 shot weapons are avoided like the plage as they aren't currently reliable.
Saying you don't have that issue when you play the army thats been handed the most ways to mitigate bad rolls isnt a shock.
Um, what? The point I'm making is that I was taking random shot weapons for use against high toughness and elite targets and now for no good reason the blanket change means they're extremely effective against hordes too.
The fact that its a blanket change is what makes it so silly. Its disproportionate. Yes I'm well aware there are weapons in other armies that are probably hot garbage without the buff. Pointing out that I don't believe that every Leman Russ I take should suddenly double as high grade anti-horde doesn't mean I don't think those other random shot weapons shouldn't be balanced, adjusted and fixed.
Great IG don't have the same issue with their Blast weapons costing way to many points for unterly random and often underwelming results.
Try throwing D6 shotd at S4/5 Ap0/-1 and D1 and feel like thats worth 30-50 points
Compair that to your 22point 2xD6 S8 Ap-2 Dd3 weapon and you see the issue
Would you still play a Russ without this rule if gribding advance was FAQ out of the game?
This is part of the issue as Grinding advance is forcing GW to leave more overcosted weapons in the game aslong as Gridning Advance exsists. It prevents a number of these weapons being fixed for non Russ Imperial/Choas vehicals.
Also at a certain point you can't really just keep making a weapon cheaper, certainly some instances of weapons, gaining this rule should results in a large points increase, however some instances I can see certain weapons still needing points decreases even with this "buff"
xeen wrote: I think you exactly right. If you watch the Table Top Tactics guys vox cast talking about play testing 9th (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLM6O6Aglc) you can see a consistent theme from GW. Play the game faster. The Blast rule is just an extension of that. It 1. helps reduce large squads faster (reducing the number of models being moved, dice rolled etc.) and 2. discourages you from relying on large squads as the base of your army as you know they will get killed quicker, harder to hide etc. Now you can debate whether this is fair or not to the player who wants to bring 3 x 30 mobs of whatever, but clearly GW is trying to discourage this for, what I think, is the purpose of faster games.
The easiest way to discourage ork players from taking 3 mobs of 30 would be making boyz mobs of 12 or 20 viable so we can go back to trukkboyz and battlewagon boyz. *wanting to play 30 boyz* has nothing to do with it, the rules right now force you to play 30 boyz or 0.
Yeah, daily reminder that my trukk boyz mob went from 75pts in 7th to 162pts in 8th, with less damage, less durability and less mobility.
There's a reason ork players put 500 models on the board and it ain't because we enjoy doing that.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Hordes can slow down the game for sure, but this is mostly due to inexperience on how to move / position your models which is improved with practice. A lot of Ork players play 200+ models and stay under clock in a 3 hour ITC game.
Re-rolls are by far the worst part of the game, especially if you don't use a dice app. And elite armies can have VERY complex turns, such as a complex order to how you do your dozen psychic powers. Mistakes can cost you a couple extra models might cost you the game.
Basically, rules bloat, re-rolls, and general complexity make the game take longer. If people just move tray their horde units, I don't see what the problem is. Most hordes also don't have long range guns, and are easily blown off the board by popular armies.
tulun wrote: Hordes can slow down the game for sure, but this is mostly due to inexperience on how to move / position your models which is improved with practice. A lot of Ork players play 200+ models and stay under clock in a 3 hour ITC game.
Re-rolls are by far the worst part of the game, especially if you don't use a dice app. And elite armies can have VERY complex turns, such as a complex order to how you do your dozen psychic powers. Mistakes can cost you a couple extra models might cost you the game.
Basically, rules bloat, re-rolls, and general complexity make the game take longer. If people just move tray their horde units, I don't see what the problem is. Most hordes also don't have long range guns, and are easily blown off the board by popular armies.
And, regardless, why should an action taking a longer time mean GW should make it weaker to discourage people from doing it?
Gw obviously wants horde units in the game - they exist in like 10 different factions and they continuously talk about how kewl it is when the badass space marines mow down hordes of orks or whatever.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
xeen wrote: I think you exactly right. If you watch the Table Top Tactics guys vox cast talking about play testing 9th (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLM6O6Aglc) you can see a consistent theme from GW. Play the game faster. The Blast rule is just an extension of that. It 1. helps reduce large squads faster (reducing the number of models being moved, dice rolled etc.) and 2. discourages you from relying on large squads as the base of your army as you know they will get killed quicker, harder to hide etc. Now you can debate whether this is fair or not to the player who wants to bring 3 x 30 mobs of whatever, but clearly GW is trying to discourage this for, what I think, is the purpose of faster games.
The easiest way to discourage ork players from taking 3 mobs of 30 would be making boyz mobs of 12 or 20 viable so we can go back to trukkboyz and battlewagon boyz. *wanting to play 30 boyz* has nothing to do with it, the rules right now force you to play 30 boyz or 0.
Yeah, daily reminder that my trukk boyz mob went from 75pts in 7th to 162pts in 8th, with less damage, less durability and less mobility.
There's a reason ork players put 500 models on the board and it ain't because we enjoy doing that.
I did not say this was the best way to accomplish faster games, just I think this is GWs logic. I think they want large squads to get blasted into pieces much quicker which is going to discourage a lot of armies from using big squads. Orks are not the only army that uses hoards by the way, and I don't think it is specifically aimed at Orks as it also hurts large cultist squads, IG sqauds etc. I do think it hurts Orks worse than most armies as a lost of those other armies can switch to playing more vehicles, monsters, elite units etc. My TS/CSM lists are certainly not taking big groups of Tgors or cultists in the near future.
I also didn't say I agree with this, or that I think hordes are that much slower compared to other units. I said I like that they are trying the speed up the game in general.
I am also a little worried as a TS player what they are going to do in the psychic phase to speed that up.
I also said I feel bad for hoard players. I think Orks in particular are probably going to get burned by this disproportionately, unless they get a real favorable shake on the point adjustments, and even then I think play big squads is going to be much harder in 9th.
I guess the point I was trying to get across to the main post is that, yes, I think GW's quest to speed up the game includes making hoards less viable, and I would certainly not go out an buy a bunch of models to make hoard units right now and wait on the full rules, and probably wait a few months after to see how it really shakes out (for all we know blast is a 200% increase in points and therefore probably not going to get much play).
Hopefully GW didn't miss the forest for the trees.
The problem isn't horde armies. The problem is number of dice. Horde armies do tend to have lots of dice, but they are only related, not the same.
I remember back in the day when I was incredulous that the Assault Cannon had 4 shots after I started playing earnestly in 3rd. "Wow!" I thought. "It must fire much faster than a regular machine gun, given that heavy stubbers and heavy bolters (the machine guns of the time) are only 3 shots."
A full strength 10-man marine squad may've had two flamers (combi and regular) and a heavy weapon (sometimes. We'll call it a missile launcher because it was free back in the day). That was, at the time, a good amount of combat power if you weren't hunting tanks and it'd get, what, 24 shots if both flamers hit 5 models (a solid but not maximum or minimum flamer template).
Rate of fire is just bonkers in 8th, and it contributes to the overall lethality problem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:30:51
tulun wrote: Hordes can slow down the game for sure, but this is mostly due to inexperience on how to move / position your models which is improved with practice. A lot of Ork players play 200+ models and stay under clock in a 3 hour ITC game.
Re-rolls are by far the worst part of the game, especially if you don't use a dice app. And elite armies can have VERY complex turns, such as a complex order to how you do your dozen psychic powers. Mistakes can cost you a couple extra models might cost you the game.
Basically, rules bloat, re-rolls, and general complexity make the game take longer. If people just move tray their horde units, I don't see what the problem is. Most hordes also don't have long range guns, and are easily blown off the board by popular armies.
And, regardless, why should an action taking a longer time mean GW should make it weaker to discourage people from doing it?
Gw obviously wants horde units in the game - they exist in like 10 different factions and they continuously talk about how kewl it is when the badass space marines mow down hordes of orks or whatever.
There's a line between I have some horde units in my army and I have an army that is hordes. The former is a tool on the tool belt; the latter is boring and monotonous irrespective of the army's dynamic as a whole.
The blast problem is likely overblown as the numbers don't really show a severe swing against these units - nevermind the analysis of what happens when guns that were primary anti-tank shoot hordes instead. So, the time for blast weapons to shine would be against an all horde army versus an army that was not previously geared to fight hordes, but has a plethora of blast.
Consider also the chance for reroll auras to get reduced down to affecting one unit - perhaps named characters still affecting 2 or more. If the prevalence of rerolls decreases then the safety of hordes increases.
Horde units will be viable. For lists that employ horde armies though? Far too many questions left to answer.
Yeah, daily reminder that my trukk boyz mob went from 75pts in 7th to 162pts in 8th, with less damage, less durability and less mobility.
There's a reason ork players put 500 models on the board and it ain't because we enjoy doing that.
Yeah, speaking very specifically of orks, horde armies are played because that is literally the only way to come close to effectiveness. Most ork elite/specialist units have a 6+ save. Almost all their shooting units are BS5. Mek guns get spammed because of their incredible BS4 accuracy.
Gorkamorkanauts, dreads, kans, battlewagons and gunwagons, freebootas and nobs, are all underpowered and overcosted compared to what they have to fight. I would love to bring more toys and fewer boyz, but when I do they literally accomplish nothing before being blown off the table turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:38:28
tulun wrote: Hordes can slow down the game for sure, but this is mostly due to inexperience on how to move / position your models which is improved with practice. A lot of Ork players play 200+ models and stay under clock in a 3 hour ITC game.
Re-rolls are by far the worst part of the game, especially if you don't use a dice app. And elite armies can have VERY complex turns, such as a complex order to how you do your dozen psychic powers. Mistakes can cost you a couple extra models might cost you the game.
Basically, rules bloat, re-rolls, and general complexity make the game take longer. If people just move tray their horde units, I don't see what the problem is. Most hordes also don't have long range guns, and are easily blown off the board by popular armies.
And, regardless, why should an action taking a longer time mean GW should make it weaker to discourage people from doing it?
Gw obviously wants horde units in the game - they exist in like 10 different factions and they continuously talk about how kewl it is when the badass space marines mow down hordes of orks or whatever.
There's a line between I have some horde units in my army and I have an army that is hordes. The former is a tool on the tool belt; the latter is boring and monotonous irrespective of the army's dynamic as a whole.
The blast problem is likely overblown as the numbers don't really show a severe swing against these units - nevermind the analysis of what happens when guns that were primary anti-tank shoot hordes instead. So, the time for blast weapons to shine would be against an all horde army versus an army that was not previously geared to fight hordes, but has a plethora of blast.
Consider also the chance for reroll auras to get reduced down to affecting one unit - perhaps named characters still affecting 2 or more. If the prevalence of rerolls decreases then the safety of hordes increases.
Horde units will be viable. For lists that employ horde armies though? Far too many questions left to answer.
I'll be honest with you, I think you're HEAVILY grasping at straws if you really think that the new necron thing indicates that all aura abilities will be reworked to work like that.
That would be an INCREDIBLE number of datasheets to alter. And, for that matter, it would negatively impact marine armies. So unless they start slowly rolling that out with the codex releases, I do not see it happening the way you describe.
I also do not see how the new blast rule, the new elite-favoring terrain rules, the new rule causing vehicles to ignore melee combat, the new elite-favoring missions, and anything else would draw any kind of distinction between horde "armies" and horde "units". I would figure that a single unit of 30 boyz with these new rules that have been previewed at 9-10ppm would be just as useless as an army made up of such pointless models. Honestly, Blasts are more of an insult than an injury at that point - GW just handing out a buff to models that are already borderline broken like TFCs because a couple guys in the studio liked making pchoo pchoo noises, which they've highlighted as the main impetus behind the rule.
Horde units are more likely screwed because now you can just plop down a leman russ punisher behind a building turn 1, take 2nd turn with it safely out of sight, then just roll out and mow down orks continuously with nothing short of total destruction of the tank stopping it from shooting 40 shots per turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:47:40
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Yeah, daily reminder that my trukk boyz mob went from 75pts in 7th to 162pts in 8th, with less damage, less durability and less mobility.
There's a reason ork players put 500 models on the board and it ain't because we enjoy doing that.
Yeah, speaking very specifically of orks, horde armies are played because that is literally the only way to come close to effectiveness. Most ork elite/specialist units have a 6+ save. Almost all their shooting units are BS5. Mek guns get spammed because of their incredible BS4 accuracy.
Gorkamorkanauts, dreads, kans, battlewagons and gunwagons, freebootas and nobs, are all underpowered and overcosted compared to what they have to fight. I would love to bring more toys and fewer boyz, but when I do they literally accomplish nothing before being blown off the table turn 1.
I'm anticipating (depending on your interpretation of the rule) the day that a Morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines. The pain can go both ways.
Honestly, like almost everything else in recent 40k balance history, the problem is power creep by marines. Primaris was one of the biggest mistakes GW ever made. You can basically trace all the major problems with 8th edition balance to the way Primaris marines raised the power level of a single infantry model. Before Primaris, Space Marines are moderately better on a model-for-model basis than other factions, but not dramatically so. After Primaris, other factions' troops had to be reduced dramatically in cost to keep Space Marine forces at the same model size (because GW didn't want you having to buy less models), with the result that what used to be a 100-model horde in previous editions is now a 200-model horde at the same points. And this in turn led to power creep on weapons, because now you need to be able to chew through 200 models with your 40-model space marine army. Hence all the rerolls, extra attacks, and extra shots liberally dolled out to Space Marines after the 8th edition launch.
You can go much deeper into this topic, and why it has led to a race to the bottom among non-space marine factions...but the basic fact is that Primaris marines break the game.
And, in typical GW fashion, GW has responded to this in 9th by...doubling down on Primaris, and (based on what we know now) just making hordes bad through all sorts of rules changes designed to punish people for doing the natural thing you do when confronted by something like Primaris.
GW has created Frankenstein's monster and they just don't seem to know what to do about it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 17:50:04
Yeah, daily reminder that my trukk boyz mob went from 75pts in 7th to 162pts in 8th, with less damage, less durability and less mobility.
There's a reason ork players put 500 models on the board and it ain't because we enjoy doing that.
Yeah, speaking very specifically of orks, horde armies are played because that is literally the only way to come close to effectiveness. Most ork elite/specialist units have a 6+ save. Almost all their shooting units are BS5. Mek guns get spammed because of their incredible BS4 accuracy.
Gorkamorkanauts, dreads, kans, battlewagons and gunwagons, freebootas and nobs, are all underpowered and overcosted compared to what they have to fight. I would love to bring more toys and fewer boyz, but when I do they literally accomplish nothing before being blown off the table turn 1.
I'm anticipating (depending on your interpretation of the rule) the day that a Morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines. The pain can go both ways.
There is no interpreting that rule. The wording is completely clear. If you think a morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines you are just flatly wrong. The rule references the result of the roll that determines the number of shots the weapon gets. A heavy 3d3 weapon that rolls 3 1's is a RESULT of 3, not 3 separate results of 1.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
There is no interpreting that rule. The wording is completely clear. If you think a morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines you are just flatly wrong. The rule references the result of the roll that determines the number of shots the weapon gets. A heavy 3d3 weapon that rolls 3 1's is a RESULT of 3, not 3 separate results of 1.
So your assertion that a D3 weapon represents the size of blast when combined into a 3D3 weapon has a blast so small as to never benefit ever?
Right, but that's kinda the point. When you kick up the per-model power level of one faction's base model without doing the same to other factions, you end up with a balance nightmare. Early in 8th GW erred too far in the direction of deflating points costs on everybody else's armies; later in 8th they erred too far on the side of boosting space marines' ability to chew through those deflated and therefore bloated armies, but the point isn't so much the balance of Primaris vis a vis other factions in the abstract, it's what they had to do to try to address the balance conundrum they had created.
The 8th edition super-horde is a side-effect of GW's Frankenstein Monster, just like the deadliness of 8th edition (i.e. "volume of fire" and/or everybody getting 50 bajillion attacks in close combat) is also a side-effect of the same thing. When Space Marines get more power per model but everybody else stays the same, you end up with 2x as many of everybody else, but then that means the marines need more shots and attacks to deal with the 2x as much as everyone else, but then that means you end up with even more of those things, but then you end up with...you see the cycle.
The basic 40k "engine" using D6 just doesn't naturally do very well at balancing armies of vastly different model sizes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 18:05:05
There is no interpreting that rule. The wording is completely clear. If you think a morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines you are just flatly wrong. The rule references the result of the roll that determines the number of shots the weapon gets. A heavy 3d3 weapon that rolls 3 1's is a RESULT of 3, not 3 separate results of 1.
So your assertion that a D3 weapon represents the size of blast when combined into a 3D3 weapon has a blast so small as to never benefit ever?
A 3d3 shot weapon cannot benefit from the first part of the new blast weapons rule. It makes absolutely no reference to individual dice or numbers rolled on individual dice, and exclusively talks about the result of the roll to determine the number of shots the weapon fires.
There is zero interpretation to be had there. they even discussed it in detail during the stream. It's completely clear what the rule does, you're just inventing a fantasy to pretend that space marines will ever be under any kind of risk from that rule. A handful of weapons getting 3 shots instead of D3 if the marine player decides not to be braindead and make use of Free Space Marine Rule #5362 that allows them to just decide to split 10 man squads into 5 man squads at the start of the game does not constitute equal risk.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Hopefully GW didn't miss the forest for the trees.
From everything we've seen so far - they absolutely DID miss the forest ...
As we all know - it's strats, rate of fire, and rerolls that are the time killers. RoF applies to all armies but is easily fixed with a dice roller app. The other two are fixed only by changing the core rules. They aren't changing those rules. They're doubling down on those while making light and medium infantry borderline pointless. I'm no great Ork player - my Orks are a "fun" army that sees a table maybe once a year, but 9th does seem to be stacking up to NOT be their edition. I don't see how they're going to work without a complete and total re-write from the ground up given what we've seen so far - which would of course invalidate the "all codexes will be compatible claim". But as I've said before, I don't think that was ever an achievable goal anyway. Not with the approach they appear to be taking at any rate.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
I think what you and I saw on the stream is being interpreted differently as they *in no way* indicated a 3D3 weapon getting no benefit - especially as they used it *as an example*.
So, then GW will be adding the Blast rule to weapons that will never see a benefit from it? I strongly doubt that.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think what you and I saw on the stream is being interpreted differently as they *in no way* indicated a 3D3 weapon getting no benefit - especially as they used it *as an example*.
So, then GW will be adding the Blast rule to weapons that will never see a benefit from it? I strongly doubt that.
You don't get no benefit from it. You get a benefit of max shots if your target is over 11 models.
They said, on stream, that certain weapons wouldn't benefit from the 6+ rule but wuld still benefit from the 11+ rule. i think they mentioned the sisters tank specifically.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Hopefully GW didn't miss the forest for the trees.
From everything we've seen so far - they absolutely DID miss the forest ...
As we all know - it's strats, rate of fire, and rerolls that are the time killers. RoF applies to all armies but is easily fixed with a dice roller app. The other two are fixed only by changing the core rules. They aren't changing those rules. They're doubling down on those while making light and medium infantry borderline pointless. I'm no great Ork player - my Orks are a "fun" army that sees a table maybe once a year, but 9th does seem to be stacking up to NOT be their edition. I don't see how they're going to work without a complete and total re-write from the ground up given what we've seen so far - which would of course invalidate the "all codexes will be compatible claim". But as I've said before, I don't think that was ever an achievable goal anyway. Not with the approach they appear to be taking at any rate.
I'm only an Ork player. I'm not overly stressed out, as honestly, fielding 120+ boys isn't particularly a fun way to play anyway.
I just hope our more mechanized style is costed aggressively enough so we can still throw down. Saga gave Orks a ton of great options.
But my incentive to play boys seems pretty low, given gak like aggressors can now guarantee 144 shots if they shoot twice, with full re-rolls to hit. Even if I stack a KFF and painboy, that easily wipes out a 30 man boy squad on average, and they are currently 37 points each. I have no idea who costs this stuff, because that is BANANAS. It's enough shooting that they can bloody anything besides T8 models.
The deadliness of certain models / units is just beyond 11 at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 18:12:42
Nurglitch wrote: I think horde armies would be better served by recycling units onto the table rather than having more models in those units.
too bad das ist verboten for some reason unless you pay reinforcement points, completely negating the point of all those abilities.
Or maybe.
Wild idea, crazy idea:
maybe shooting units should not be able to just wipe the ever loving gak out of whatever they look at for no really adequately explored reason? Maybe a squad of 10 basic marines should not have a stratagem to toss 40 fething S4 Ap-1 shots down the table with full rerolls to hit coming out of a 68pt basic bitch HQ? Maybe 37pt models shouldn't get 18 shots apiece? Maybe we didn't need to add the rule to allow thunderfire cannons that are already firing twice and cutting movement in half to get max shots for free against anything but a min size boyz squad?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
There is no interpreting that rule. The wording is completely clear. If you think a morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines you are just flatly wrong. The rule references the result of the roll that determines the number of shots the weapon gets. A heavy 3d3 weapon that rolls 3 1's is a RESULT of 3, not 3 separate results of 1.
So your assertion that a D3 weapon represents the size of blast when combined into a 3D3 weapon has a blast so small as to never benefit ever?
A 3d3 shot weapon cannot benefit from the first part of the new blast weapons rule. It makes absolutely no reference to individual dice or numbers rolled on individual dice, and exclusively talks about the result of the roll to determine the number of shots the weapon fires.
There is zero interpretation to be had there. they even discussed it in detail during the stream. It's completely clear what the rule does, you're just inventing a fantasy to pretend that space marines will ever be under any kind of risk from that rule. A handful of weapons getting 3 shots instead of D3 if the marine player decides not to be braindead and make use of Free Space Marine Rule #5362 that allows them to just decide to split 10 man squads into 5 man squads at the start of the game does not constitute equal risk.
"Werner: In the absence of dedicated indirect fire units, the best way to (literally) get around line-of-sight-blocking terrain is by making use of the myriad movement abilities that Necrons have at their disposal. The Doom Scythe, in particular, can use its speed and freedom of movement to get eyes on a valuable target from across the table, then obliterate it with its death ray. What’s more, as a Blast weapon, the death ray will be effective against large enemy units as well as enemy vehicles – you’ll automatically get your maximum of three shots against units of six of more, which will be great for zapping Space Marines."
This gun is d3. From the latest warhammer community article about necrons.
Question answered. Very, very odd, that apparently LARGER blasts don't get a bonus from 6-10, but go absolutely ham 11+, but that's apparently what they went with. Another disincentive to go beyond 10, and it's interesting a lot of very, very powerful d3 guns are going to just smash elite space marines. Look at what Smasha guns do (for example) if they auto get 3 shots at 33 points each.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think what you and I saw on the stream is being interpreted differently as they *in no way* indicated a 3D3 weapon getting no benefit - especially as they used it *as an example*.
So, then GW will be adding the Blast rule to weapons that will never see a benefit from it? I strongly doubt that.
You don't get no benefit from it. You get a benefit of max shots if your target is over 11 models.
They said, on stream, that certain weapons wouldn't benefit from the 6+ rule but wuld still benefit from the 11+ rule. i think they mentioned the sisters tank specifically.
Ok, fair enough. You may very well be correct and I have my head up my ass.
