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ClockworkZion wrote: You can't call it a "horde" mechanic if it's not applicable to "horde" units. What we have is a "blast" mechanic that targets units based on size, not type.
Making up a narrative about hordes being targeted (something I'm blaming Table Top Titans for having a hand in, as well as Front Line Gaming as neither seems to actually looked at how effective blasts -actually- are and instead knee jerked because "look at how many shots a Wyvern has!!!11!one!!!") doesn't really address anything. All it's doing is peddling a fake narrative about hordes being unfairly targetted by a weapon that is the least effective against them.
Because people apparently didn't look at the link I posted that showed an actual breakdown of actual blast weapons aimed at (mainly Craftworlds) units of various sizes, as well as Plasma Cannon Devastators and some more common basic weapons here we go:
Now please note how many blast weapons actually managed to kill even -half- of a unit. That's right. The Wyvern killed 3.11/5 Dire Avengers who were taking their worst save and not soaking any wounds on the Exarch or standing in any kind of cover or with any kind of protection.
The math doesn't support the narrative that blast weapons are going to be regularly wiping out hordes unless you start pouring a large amount of CP, support buffs, psychic powers, or just using a lot of them to shoot at hordes.
The blast weapon is not an anti-horde weapon in the way people have been presenting it as, and it's clear they haven't actually checked their assumptions once.
Let me help: At 6-10 models D6 averages 4 attacks. That's the thing you'll most need to be aware of if you want to crunch your own numbers.
So what you're saying is, I should buy some Wyverns? But seriously, Exaltation for some excellent time consuming number crunching - well done!
I wonder how much of a difference the Master of Ordnance makes.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ok now so assuming I’m running Tyranids, and I know
I’m not gonna be casting Catalyst or any other buffs on a unit of TERMAGANTS (something I’ve never once had to do in a decade of playing Nids), it’s pretty safe to say that all the criticism is intact right - I’d be silly to run 30 man squads now and give up free hits right? It’s a shame because I enjoy the big termagant blob but I cannot see it being worth giving my opponent effectively a free Wyvern, and yeah I know both the local guard players here are excited for theirs in 9th
I mean you give up free hits just bringing models to the game, why fuss about this?
...
I see what you’ve posted here, but there must be a mistake I don’t think you meant to say that... I am certain you have more self-respect than to actually make this argument in full sincerity
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ok now so assuming I’m running Tyranids, and I know
I’m not gonna be casting Catalyst or any other buffs on a unit of TERMAGANTS (something I’ve never once had to do in a decade of playing Nids), it’s pretty safe to say that all the criticism is intact right - I’d be silly to run 30 man squads now and give up free hits right? It’s a shame because I enjoy the big termagant blob but I cannot see it being worth giving my opponent effectively a free Wyvern, and yeah I know both the local guard players here are excited for theirs in 9th
I mean you give up free hits just bringing models to the game, why fuss about this?
...
I see what you’ve posted here, but there must be a mistake I don’t think you meant to say that... I am certain you have more self-respect than to actually make this argument in full sincerity
If you're not using them to their full effectiveness then there is no argument that can be made to get you to change your mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 15:21:58
Cool, so where's your numbers showing the effects of Attrition?
Because remember: it's any roll of a 1, rolled for on each model, with a -1 to the roll if the unit drops below half strength.
Those "1 or 2 more models" are the difference between being at Half Strength or Below Half Strength(when the -1 to attrition kicks in)--meaning it's the difference of passing on 2(assuming no negative modifiers from units or powers or auras or whatever)+ or failing on 1s and 2s.
ClockworkZion wrote: You can't call it a "horde" mechanic if it's not applicable to "horde" units. What we have is a "blast" mechanic that targets units based on size, not type.
Making up a narrative about hordes being targeted (something I'm blaming Table Top Titans for having a hand in, as well as Front Line Gaming as neither seems to actually looked at how effective blasts -actually- are and instead knee jerked because "look at how many shots a Wyvern has!!!11!one!!!") doesn't really address anything. All it's doing is peddling a fake narrative about hordes being unfairly targetted by a weapon that is the least effective against them.
Because people apparently didn't look at the link I posted that showed an actual breakdown of actual blast weapons aimed at (mainly Craftworlds) units of various sizes, as well as Plasma Cannon Devastators and some more common basic weapons here we go:
Now please note how many blast weapons actually managed to kill even -half- of a unit. That's right. The Wyvern killed 3.11/5 Dire Avengers who were taking their worst save and not soaking any wounds on the Exarch or standing in any kind of cover or with any kind of protection.
The math doesn't support the narrative that blast weapons are going to be regularly wiping out hordes unless you start pouring a large amount of CP, support buffs, psychic powers, or just using a lot of them to shoot at hordes.
The blast weapon is not an anti-horde weapon in the way people have been presenting it as, and it's clear they haven't actually checked their assumptions once.
Let me help: At 6-10 models D6 averages 4 attacks. That's the thing you'll most need to be aware of if you want to crunch your own numbers.
So what you're saying is, I should buy some Wyverns? But seriously, Exaltation for some excellent time consuming number crunching - well done!
I wonder how much of a difference the Master of Ordnance makes.
Seriously don't. The extra 2T and 1W are worth more then 10 points alone, and it does more damage, and if it gets tagged by 10 Gaunts it wont spend the rest of the game shooting its heavy bolter at them.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ok now so assuming I’m running Tyranids, and I know
I’m not gonna be casting Catalyst or any other buffs on a unit of TERMAGANTS (something I’ve never once had to do in a decade of playing Nids), it’s pretty safe to say that all the criticism is intact right - I’d be silly to run 30 man squads now and give up free hits right? It’s a shame because I enjoy the big termagant blob but I cannot see it being worth giving my opponent effectively a free Wyvern, and yeah I know both the local guard players here are excited for theirs in 9th
I mean you give up free hits just bringing models to the game, why fuss about this?
...
I see what you’ve posted here, but there must be a mistake I don’t think you meant to say that... I am certain you have more self-respect than to actually make this argument in full sincerity
If you're not using them to their full effectiveness then there is no argument that can be made to get you to change your mind.
I genuinely don’t follow what you’re saying here but it’s starting to read like the words of someone in too deep who is now just arguing for the sake of not wanting to back down even a fraction. Spoletta made good points. What you’re saying is not.... very convincing in the slightest.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/21 15:28:38
Kanluwen wrote: Cool, so where's your numbers showing the effects of Attrition?
Because remember: it's any roll of a 1, rolled for on each model, with a -1 to the roll if the unit drops below half strength.
Those "1 or 2 more models" are the difference between being at Half Strength or Below Half Strength(when the -1 to attrition kicks in)--meaning it's the difference of passing on 2(assuming no negative modifiers from units or powers or auras or whatever)+ or failing on 1s and 2s.
Cool, where's your math showing that any blast weapons are as deadly on their own as you're acting they are?
Let's use 30 Grots being shot by a Leman Russ since they lose an easy 5 models. They're Ld4, so they auto-fail and lose one, that leaves 24 models. 1/6 of those will run, so another 4, so they lose 5 models and still have 20 standing around.
How about another one? Guardian Defenders with 20 models lose 7 (rounding down the .11) to a Wyvern leaving them with 13, and auto-fail their morale of 7. 1 model flees, and they lose 2 to morale. They lose 10 models total.
Morale and attrition isn't taking large chunks out of units these days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 15:30:33
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
I want to remind people that wyverns were inherently linked to vigilus, and only gained massive popularity because of all the buffs you could stack on them
Nitro Zeus wrote: I genuinely don’t follow what you’re saying here but it’s starting to read like the words of someone in too deep who is now just arguing for the sake of not wanting to back down even a fraction. Spoletta made good points. What you’re saying is not.... very convincing in the slightest.
When you asked if there was any reason to run massed Termaguants in hordes of 30 several where pointed out, only for you to move the goal posts and say that you basically play the unit with as little efficiency as possible and then ask the same question.
Honestly I just felt you were going to go "okay, there's that but..." on us again.
If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
Wyvern is 4D6, not D6.
You're looking at 4 shots minimum, 24 maximum...which means vs 6-10 models, you're not really seeing any difference but 11+? That's a huge jump.
Seriously don't. The extra 2T and 1W are worth more then 10 points alone, and it does more damage, and if it gets tagged by 10 Gaunts it wont spend the rest of the game shooting its heavy bolter at them.
I'm sorry, I've no idea what you're talking about, what has 2T and 1W more than what? Are you talking about a Leman Russ? (something I did not mention)
Nitro Zeus wrote: If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
When I asked him to provide math to disprove my math he pulled a "but you didn't talk about morale!" and moved the goal posts. He didn't prove anything, and he disproved even less.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
? Wyvern is 4D6 shots, against 11+ that 24 shots
No its per weapon not per dice. So 4d6 min 6.
When a Blast weapon targets a unit that has 11 or more models, do not roll dice to randomly determine how many attacks are made – instead, make the maximum possible number of attacks For example, if a Grenade D6 weapon with the Blast rule targets a unit that has 11 or more models, that weapon makes six attacks against that unit
That's straight from the free PDF. It's the maximum amount of attacks--24.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
? Wyvern is 4D6 shots, against 11+ that 24 shots
No its per weapon not per dice. So 4d6 min 6.
It's one weapon shooting 4d6 shoots, so minimum of 4 shots, average of 12, max of 24.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I genuinely don’t follow what you’re saying here but it’s starting to read like the words of someone in too deep who is now just arguing for the sake of not wanting to back down even a fraction. Spoletta made good points. What you’re saying is not.... very convincing in the slightest.
When you asked if there was any reason to run massed Termaguants in hordes of 30 several where pointed out, only for you to move the goal posts and say that you basically play the unit with as little efficiency as possible and then ask the same question.
Honestly I just felt you were going to go "okay, there's that but..." on us again.
What the? Wasting additional resources on Termagants isn’t “playing them to maximum efficiency” it’s the opposite of it. You have one Catalyst IF that, and real units to protect with it. Just because it’s more efficient to buff a 30 man squad than a 10 man squad doesn’t mean there’s any real efficiency in this play in the first place. You are LOSING efficiency here because the most realistic scenario where efficiency comes into play is the fact that you lose like twice as many modes to a Wyvern. There was no shifting of the goal posts that’s just you further leaning on buzzwords and other substance-less arguments. I’ve been asking one question from the start, I guess you just don’t really have any understanding of how Tyranids play before you made all these declarations, but we don’t buff up a bunch of Termagants like they are release state Cultists or something.
Nitro Zeus wrote: If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
When I asked him to provide math to disprove my math he pulled a "but you didn't talk about morale!" and moved the goal posts. He didn't prove anything, and he disproved even less.
And I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Blast weapons are less deadly to non-large units than you're pretending them to be. Yes, there's a cap as to where the efficacy applies(that was going to be the case no matter what since these numbers are stupidly arbitrary as I've said repeatedly) but that doesn't change that it is not going to be hurting literally anyone who can have variably sized units since they can just skate past it.
I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge the nonsense argument that you made about how this is purely to bring back templates...while ignoring that it doesn't actually affect multiple units at once, meaning that argument is bunk.
Blast was a dud, no pun intended, as long as you're not obligated to take full sized units and the unit sizes for a maximum effect for D6 based weapons is beyond the maximum/minimum size for most units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 15:41:27
Seriously don't. The extra 2T and 1W are worth more then 10 points alone, and it does more damage, and if it gets tagged by 10 Gaunts it wont spend the rest of the game shooting its heavy bolter at them.
I'm sorry, I've no idea what you're talking about, what has 2T and 1W more than what? Are you talking about a Leman Russ? (something I did not mention)
Yeah sorry I'm just astounded this even an argument.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
? Wyvern is 4D6 shots, against 11+ that 24 shots
No its per weapon not per dice. So 4d6 min 6.
It's one weapon shooting 4d6 shoots, so minimum of 4 shots, average of 12, max of 24.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
? Wyvern is 4D6 shots, against 11+ that 24 shots
No its per weapon not per dice. So 4d6 min 6.
It's one weapon shooting 4d6 shoots, so minimum of 4 shots, average of 12, max of 24.
Given the average value on a d6 is 3.5, the average would be 14, not 12.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Nitro Zeus wrote: I genuinely don’t follow what you’re saying here but it’s starting to read like the words of someone in too deep who is now just arguing for the sake of not wanting to back down even a fraction. Spoletta made good points. What you’re saying is not.... very convincing in the slightest.
When you asked if there was any reason to run massed Termaguants in hordes of 30 several where pointed out, only for you to move the goal posts and say that you basically play the unit with as little efficiency as possible and then ask the same question.
Honestly I just felt you were going to go "okay, there's that but..." on us again.
What the? Wasting additional resources on Termagants isn’t “playing them to maximum efficiency” it’s the opposite of it. You have one Catalyst IF that, and real units to protect with it. Just because it’s more efficient to buff a 30 man squad than a 10 man squad doesn’t mean there’s any real efficiency in this play in the first place. You are LOSING efficiency here because the most realistic scenario where efficiency comes into play is the fact that you lose like twice as many modes to a Wyvern. There was no shifting of the goal posts that’s just you further leaning on buzzwords and other substance-less arguments. I’ve been asking one question from the start, I guess you just don’t really have any understanding of how Tyranids play before you made all these declarations, but we don’t buff up a bunch of Termagants like they are release state Cultists or something.
Losing an extra model or two from a unit to a Wyvern versus it being more easily shot off the board by non-blast weapons? Which is really more important? Because people keep talking about blasts, but forget that to counter blasts you make yourself weaker to stuff like bolters, bolt rifles, or even lasguns.
Nitro Zeus wrote: If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
When I asked him to provide math to disprove my math he pulled a "but you didn't talk about morale!" and moved the goal posts. He didn't prove anything, and he disproved even less.
And I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Blast weapons are less deadly than you're pretending them to be.
I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge the nonsense argument that you made about how this is purely to bring back templates...while ignoring that it doesn't actually affect multiple units at once, meaning that argument is bunk.
Less deadly? Zion has been here repeatedly saying they're not going to be as deadly to hordes as people have been claiming - what are you talking about, Kan?
And the new Blast rules do simulate a template hit (or the in-world effect of a shot which in-game has a template, anyway) better than a straight dX roll seems to have done through the whole of 8th. It is a mechanic which can't cover clipping second units, etc, but that was always the thing people bitched about when it came to template weapons in previous editions anyway.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
? Wyvern is 4D6 shots, against 11+ that 24 shots
No its per weapon not per dice. So 4d6 min 6.
When a Blast weapon targets a unit that has 11 or more models, do not roll dice to randomly determine how many attacks are made – instead, make the maximum possible number of attacks For example, if a Grenade D6 weapon with the Blast rule targets a unit that has 11 or more models, that weapon makes six attacks against that unit
That's straight from the free PDF. It's the maximum amount of attacks--24.
You are correct, too much gak in my brain of which to keep track.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I genuinely don’t follow what you’re saying here but it’s starting to read like the words of someone in too deep who is now just arguing for the sake of not wanting to back down even a fraction. Spoletta made good points. What you’re saying is not.... very convincing in the slightest.
When you asked if there was any reason to run massed Termaguants in hordes of 30 several where pointed out, only for you to move the goal posts and say that you basically play the unit with as little efficiency as possible and then ask the same question.
Honestly I just felt you were going to go "okay, there's that but..." on us again.
What the? Wasting additional resources on Termagants isn’t “playing them to maximum efficiency” it’s the opposite of it. You have one Catalyst IF that, and real units to protect with it. Just because it’s more efficient to buff a 30 man squad than a 10 man squad doesn’t mean there’s any real efficiency in this play in the first place. You are LOSING efficiency here because the most realistic scenario where efficiency comes into play is the fact that you lose like twice as many modes to a Wyvern. There was no shifting of the goal posts that’s just you further leaning on buzzwords and other substance-less arguments. I’ve been asking one question from the start, I guess you just don’t really have any understanding of how Tyranids play before you made all these declarations, but we don’t buff up a bunch of Termagants like they are release state Cultists or something.
Losing an extra model or two from a unit to a Wyvern versus it being more easily shot off the board by non-blast weapons? Which is really more important? Because people keep talking about blasts, but forget that to counter blasts you make yourself weaker to stuff like bolters, bolt rifles, or even lasguns.
I don’t understand how it’s any easier to kill 30 Termagants in 10 man squads with Bolters than it is to kill one 30 man squad. In fact, it’s harder because you’ll likely waste shots over killing each unit. Once again, less efficient. Surely efficiency is not the word you meant to use here right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 15:51:29
Nitro Zeus wrote: If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
When I asked him to provide math to disprove my math he pulled a "but you didn't talk about morale!" and moved the goal posts. He didn't prove anything, and he disproved even less.
And I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Blast weapons are less deadly than you're pretending them to be.
I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge the nonsense argument that you made about how this is purely to bring back templates...while ignoring that it doesn't actually affect multiple units at once, meaning that argument is bunk.
Less deadly? Zion has been here repeatedly saying they're not going to be as deadly to hordes as people have been claiming - what are you talking about, Kan?
And the new Blast rules do simulate a template hit (or the in-world effect of a shot which in-game has a template, anyway) better than a straight dX roll seems to have done through the whole of 8th. It is a mechanic which can't cover clipping second units, etc, but that was always the thing people bitched about when it came to template weapons in previous editions anyway.
Read the edit. I forgot a part.
It's a nonsense argument that Blast weapons are less deadly to "horde units" when they're the only ones where you'll see D6 based weapons really shining. You don't see people complaining that their 10 model Marine Squads are going to be affected...because they can just Combat Squad and avoid it. You don't see people complaining about Fire Warriors, Skitarii, etc. They've just started talking more and more about MSU.
Blast is a rule that will basically not exist for certain armies when playing against them. It's a joke that they even bothered adding this rule in the first place.
Nitro Zeus wrote: If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
When I asked him to provide math to disprove my math he pulled a "but you didn't talk about morale!" and moved the goal posts. He didn't prove anything, and he disproved even less.
And I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Blast weapons are less deadly to non-large units than you're pretending them to be. Yes, there's a cap as to where the efficacy applies(that was going to be the case no matter what since these numbers are stupidly arbitrary as I've said repeatedly) but that doesn't change that it is not going to be hurting literally anyone who can have variably sized units since they can just skate past it.
I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge the nonsense argument that you made about how this is purely to bring back templates...while ignoring that it doesn't actually affect multiple units at once, meaning that argument is bunk.
Blast was a dud, no pun intended, as long as you're not obligated to take full sized units and the unit sizes for a maximum effect for D6 based weapons is beyond the maximum/minimum size for most units.
I never said they weren't less deadly to smaller units, I've done the math that shows how they play out at different unit sizes because that was what I was originally looking at, I said the sizes chosen were to emulate the old blast templates. I wouldn't be shocked if the devs dusted off a set, crammed a bunch of models under them and chose their numbers that way.
And just because a weapon type is better against a specific unit size doesn't make it anti-that unit. Look at those numbers again. Blasts weapons aren't killing more than Rapid Fire bolt rifles are even with morale factored in. Does that make bolt rifles an anti-horde weapon? No.
Blast weapons are a weapon of target priority that allows you to soften targets, but is bad at finishing targets off. The bigger the target the easier time it has hurting it, but generally speaking there's a few of them I wouldn't even use on hordes as getting multiple hits against enemy armour would be a better use for them.
The problem is that trying to counter blasts weakens units against other weapon types and the fixation on the effects of blasts (often being thrown about with no numbers to back it up) and pushing MSU as a baseline on units that don't have the toughness and/or saves to be MSU is very much a major over reaction.
The Wyvern has one blast weapon.
It get a minimum of 6 SHOTS , not hits, shots.
You are negating 9/1236 results
Your going to shoot the average number of shots, which means 3 ish wounds on average.
Punisher can't reroll wounds but gets 20 shots everytime. Which nets about 4 wounds.
So the punisher as long as its able to see will do more damage, it's also more durable T8 vs T6 is a huge difference. Punisher can still fire its weapon when it gets tagged (which by the way means you will probably more shooting put of the Punisher). If you stick the Wyvren behind cover to hide it your going to have to drop something to zone out DSing models.
? Wyvern is 4D6 shots, against 11+ that 24 shots
No its per weapon not per dice. So 4d6 min 6.
It's one weapon shooting 4d6 shoots, so minimum of 4 shots, average of 12, max of 24.
Is the average not 14?
No, you're right, it is 14. Which means I've been overselling the Wyvern when I've said it "doubles its shots" against 11+.
And that's why I used a combat calculator where I could just put 4d6 and let it math out the average.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I genuinely don’t follow what you’re saying here but it’s starting to read like the words of someone in too deep who is now just arguing for the sake of not wanting to back down even a fraction. Spoletta made good points. What you’re saying is not.... very convincing in the slightest.
When you asked if there was any reason to run massed Termaguants in hordes of 30 several where pointed out, only for you to move the goal posts and say that you basically play the unit with as little efficiency as possible and then ask the same question.
Honestly I just felt you were going to go "okay, there's that but..." on us again.
What the? Wasting additional resources on Termagants isn’t “playing them to maximum efficiency” it’s the opposite of it. You have one Catalyst IF that, and real units to protect with it. Just because it’s more efficient to buff a 30 man squad than a 10 man squad doesn’t mean there’s any real efficiency in this play in the first place. You are LOSING efficiency here because the most realistic scenario where efficiency comes into play is the fact that you lose like twice as many modes to a Wyvern. There was no shifting of the goal posts that’s just you further leaning on buzzwords and other substance-less arguments. I’ve been asking one question from the start, I guess you just don’t really have any understanding of how Tyranids play before you made all these declarations, but we don’t buff up a bunch of Termagants like they are release state Cultists or something.
Losing an extra model or two from a unit to a Wyvern versus it being more easily shot off the board by non-blast weapons? Which is really more important? Because people keep talking about blasts, but forget that to counter blasts you make yourself weaker to stuff like bolters, bolt rifles, or even lasguns.
I don’t understand how it’s any easier to kill 30 Termagants in 10 man squads with Bolters than it is to kill one 30 man squad. In fact, it’s harder because you’ll likely waste shots over killing each unit. Once again, less efficient. Surely efficiency is not the word you meant to use here right?
How many Termagaunts are we talking about in a list? 30, or 180? Because in the former you could run 3x10 and have the same effect, but if you're running a maxed out carpet of bugs, that 180 is a single battalion for hordes, or 3 Battalions for MSU. So are we talking about -just- 30 little bugs, or are you talking about every unit of 30 being run as 3x10 instead?
Nitro Zeus wrote: If he’s not leaning on math as a part of his argument, which he isn’t, then he’s fully justified in pointing out the flaws in your math without providing any math of his own.
When I asked him to provide math to disprove my math he pulled a "but you didn't talk about morale!" and moved the goal posts. He didn't prove anything, and he disproved even less.
And I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Blast weapons are less deadly than you're pretending them to be.
I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge the nonsense argument that you made about how this is purely to bring back templates...while ignoring that it doesn't actually affect multiple units at once, meaning that argument is bunk.
Less deadly? Zion has been here repeatedly saying they're not going to be as deadly to hordes as people have been claiming - what are you talking about, Kan?
And the new Blast rules do simulate a template hit (or the in-world effect of a shot which in-game has a template, anyway) better than a straight dX roll seems to have done through the whole of 8th. It is a mechanic which can't cover clipping second units, etc, but that was always the thing people bitched about when it came to template weapons in previous editions anyway.
Read the edit. I forgot a part.
It's a nonsense argument that Blast weapons are less deadly to "horde units" when they're the only ones where you'll see D6 based weapons really shining. You don't see people complaining that their 10 model Marine Squads are going to be affected...because they can just Combat Squad and avoid it. You don't see people complaining about Fire Warriors, Skitarii, etc. They've just started talking more and more about MSU.
Blast is a rule that will basically not exist for certain armies when playing against them. It's a joke that they even bothered adding this rule in the first place.
My arguement is that people have overly fixated on the numbers that blasts do, and the MSU playstyle was being oversold. Especially when it's easy to remove a small unit off a point, but a larger unit will weather more fire before it can be removed.
This is the edition of holding objectives, and having capped CP. MSU generally means easier to remove when talking about T3/T4 bodies with 4+ or worse saves, and to bring the body count to make them matter that means spending CP to do so. I'm not sure the "cure" for blast is as good as people say it is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/21 15:58:15
I mean most Tyranid lists are not running 180 gants lol that’s an extremely unpopular way of playing the game. But in one of my opening posts I specified that I would have enough slots to run them all as 10 man units, so convince me why running them as 30 man units is anything but stupid. So if your argument is just that it’s only smart to run them in 30 man units if I don’t have the slots to run them as 10 man units, well yeah, that’s the argument being made really.
But seriously, Exaltation for some excellent time consuming number crunching - well done!
15k+
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