You....you shot me! Uhh, Look out, sir.

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**Spoletta**

Why removing that? Do you really want a Titan warlord to be screened by a sentinel?

**Gadzilla666**

This promotes good positioning to protect characters as well as target priority to clear out intervening units so you can target your opponent's characters. I like it.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, but it also encourages people to castle up even more, like almost all of the rules revealed so far.

The way to nerf herohammer wasn't to force everybody to play castlehammer instead.

Let them castle up. The Eighth Legion loves it when our enemies gather in a large group. Makes for better charnel houses. It's not like we're going to let that chapter master do anything anyway.

**Siegfriedfr**

Spoletta wrote:
Why removing that? Do you really want a Titan warlord to be screened by a sentinel?

Do they have the CHARACTER keyword ?

**yukishiro1**

Knights can. I don't want a Knight being screened by a couple guardsmen.

**Eldarsif**

Stormonu wrote:
Shurikens whizzed through the air as Creed gently pulled the cigar case out of his breast pocket. It wasn't Cadian mud that caked his boots, but it felt damn fine to be on the field once again.

Bent low beside the remnants of a singed Imperium Forticae wall, private Jenkins winced as he observed the non-chalant commander.

"Sir," Jenkins breathed in-between harrowing blasts of gunfire. "Is it wise to stand out in the open like that?"

Creed fumbled in his varied pockets as another burst of shuriken fire grazed his loose overcoat before he found the small silver canister he was looking for. As he pulled it out and flicked open the top, he finally acknowledged the men to his right and slightly forward of his position.

"You boys just stay right where you are," he nodded to the trio of concealed guardsmen. "I need a clear view of the battlefield to construct my strategy."

Jenkins was about to affirm the commander's order when the wall where the three men crouched alit like a brilliant sunrise. In a moment, wall and guardsmen were reduced to ash, without even a cry of alarm.

"Dammit," Creed mouthed as he pressed the lit end of the silver canister to his cigar and puckered until thick, fragrant smoke began to puff from his mouth.

He straightened, and with the curl of his fingers motioned to the nearby Leman Russ firing volleys into the distant xeno ranks. As the tank turned and rumbled in his direction, he sighed, glancing into enemy's distant but advancing ranks. "Probably should have had that next to me in the first place."

To be fair this happened in 8th as well.

Or, as the narrative goes.

The Daemon Prince smiled at this cunning as he stood in the open plains viewing the enemy rolling in across the hill. He felt invincible. He looked at a lone shed in the hill close to the battleline, and could not help but laugh at his genius. With the ultra hearing blessed to him by Slaanesh themselves he could hear a lone cultist breathing erratically in the shed. All the guns of the Imperium aimed wildly through the air, but none could target the daemon. The daemon could hear the Imperium's dogs curse and his laughter became a hideous scream of joy..

**Tyel**

Seems like a good change to me.

Probably a slight favour for shooting gunlines etc - but the situation where you couldn't shoot say a Smash Captain/Daemon Prince whatever on one side of the table, because there was a rhino or something half an inch closer (but still miles away) *on the other side of the table*, was a bit daft.

With that said I can see the argument that that a Basilisk (or Hive Guard etc) will be able to nuke a character from space if ever not within 3" of something. In practice... you'll just need to keep them in 3" of something. Might be a bit of a cultural change but I'm not sure its that ruinous. If my 3 ravagers are dead, do I really care if you want to shoot my Archon?

**yukishiro1**

It is going to come up a lot with indirect fire. It's just yet another change in 9th edition that makes indirect fire even more ridiculously overpowered than it was in 8th edition.

**nemesis464**

Glad the rule is in place, but Jesus christ, it’s written in such an inelegant manner. Did none of the developers just stop and think ‘this should be broken up into bullet points, rather than one big fat verbose paragraph’?

**yukishiro1**

At least they remembered to put periods in it this time.

**Arachnofiend**

nemesis464 wrote:
Glad the rule is in place, but Jesus christ, it’s written in such an inelegant manner. Did none of the developers just stop and think ‘this should be broken up into bullet points, rather than one big fat verbose paragraph’?

My generous assumption is that they did and then they got thwacked by an editor for "wasting page space". Happens more than you'd think. >.>

**Krylon**

Arachnofiend wrote:
nemesis464 wrote:
Glad the rule is in place, but Jesus christ, it’s written in such an inelegant manner. Did none of the developers just stop and think ‘this should be broken up into bullet points, rather than one big fat verbose paragraph’?

My generous assumption is that they did and then they got thwacked by an editor for "wasting page space". Happens more than you'd think. >.>

Then why not to write simple and understandable rules instead of tortured sentences :/
Sometimes those rules explanation have the same feel as lore telling

**Hellebore**

If I'm reading this right then you can avoid ever having your character shot by making a ring out of a unit and putting it inside right? It would never be the closest target.

**BaconCatBug**

Hellebore wrote:
If I'm reading this right then you can avoid ever having your character shot by making a ring out of a unit and putting it inside right? It would never be the closest target.

That is how it works now anyway. Good luck moving though unless you can FLY with the Character.

Also, this image sums up the stupidity of this new rule.

Through the power of FRIENDSHIP and DISGUSTING HAND HOLDING, my pair of Slaanesh Daemon Princes become immortal, while my poor Khorne Daemon Prince gets shot to oblivion.

Spoiler:

**Daedalus81**

Arachnofiend wrote:
nemesis464 wrote:
Glad the rule is in place, but Jesus christ, it’s written in such an inelegant manner. Did none of the developers just stop and think ‘this should be broken up into bullet points, rather than one big fat verbose paragraph’?

My generous assumption is that they did and then they got thwacked by an editor for "wasting page space". Happens more than you'd think. >.>

Actually they have been doing that and just didn't for this one for some reason.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconCatBug wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
If I'm reading this right then you can avoid ever having your character shot by making a ring out of a unit and putting it inside right? It would never be the closest target.

That is how it works now anyway. Good luck moving though unless you can FLY with the Character.

Also, this image sums up the stupidity of this new rule.

Through the power of FRIENDSHIP and DISGUSTING HAND HOLDING, my pair of Slaanesh Daemon Princes become immortal, while my poor Khorne Daemon Prince gets shot to oblivion.

Spoiler:

Uh, if DP1 is closest it can be targeted. DP3 can also be targeted. DP2 can also be targeted, because you ignore other W9 characters for determining who is closest.

**BaconCatBug**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Uh, if DP1 is closest it can be targeted. DP3 can also be targeted. DP2 can also be targeted, because you ignore other W9 characters for determining who is closest.

DP1 is within 3" of a MONSTER, so it can't be targeted unless it is the closest. The Infantry are closer. Thus, it cannot be targeted.

DP3 can be targeted, even if it isn't the closest, because it's not within 3" of a MONSTER, VEHICLE, or 3+ size unit.

Read the final line of Look Out, Sir! carefully, it only applies to the "closest" clause. If the CHARACTER is within 3" of a blocking unit, and NOT the closest unit, you can't be shot at.

**Daedalus81**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Uh, if DP1 is closest it can be targeted. DP3 can also be targeted. DP2 can also be targeted, because you ignore other W9 characters for determining who is closest.
DP1 is within 3" of a MONSTER, so it can't be targeted unless it is the closest. The Infantry are closer.

DP3 can be targeted, even if it isn't the closest, because it's not within 3" of a MONSTER, VEHICLE, or 3+ size unit.

Read the final line of Look Out, Sir! carefully, it only applies to the "closest" clause. If the CHARACTER is within 3" of a blocking unit, and NOT the closest unit, you can't be shot at.

Oh I see - I thought the infantry were shooting the DPs. I see no problem with this. This scenario is not very different than current rules. Now you just have to kill three of those models and you get access to all the DPs (instead of just #3).

**BaconCatBug**

Daedalus81 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Uh, if DP1 is closest it can be targeted. DP3 can also be targeted. DP2 can also be targeted, because you ignore other W9 characters for determining who is closest.
DP1 is within 3" of a MONSTER, so it can't be targeted unless it is the closest. The Infantry are closer.

DP3 can be targeted, even if it isn't the closest, because it's not within 3" of a MONSTER, VEHICLE, or 3+ size unit.

Read the final line of Look Out, Sir! carefully, it only applies to the "closest" clause. If the CHARACTER is within 3" of a blocking unit, and NOT the closest unit, you can't be shot at.

Oh I see - I thought the infantry were shooting the DPs. I see no problem with this. This scenario is not very different than current rules. Now you just have to kill three of those models and you get access to all the DPs (instead of just #3).

No, you don't, you need to kill all 4 of the intervening infantry, because otherwise DP1 and DP2 are not the closest units. If you kill all 4 of the Green Infantry, then yes, DP1 and DP2 can be shot because the "unless it is closest" clause kicks in and overrides the 3" bubble of protection.

But it makes no sense that by holding hands the DP become unable to be shot at but a DP on it's own can be shot.

**Arachnofiend**

Would there be any issues with just ignoring other characters for targeting rules entirely? I assume the point of contention here is that the daemon princes are protecting each other, and if one of them was a helbrute instead nobody would mind the rules working like that.

**Daedalus81**

BaconCatBug wrote:
No, you don't, you need to kill all 4 of the intervening infantry, because otherwise DP1 and DP2 are not the closest units. If you kill all 4 of the Green Infantry, then yes, DP1 and DP2 can be shot because the "unless it is closest" clause kicks in and overrides the 3" bubble of protection.

Gotcha. Yea, still not particularly concerned. I'm not sure i'll ever get the chance to see the wonder-twin DPs in action.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Why removing that? Do you really want a Titan warlord to be screened by a sentinel?
Do they have the CHARACTER keyword ?

Leman Russ Tank Commanders do.
Do you want to deal with an untargetable Leman Russ? The character dreadnought is bad enough because there's few ways to engage a character and even fewer that can wound a vehicle profile.

If anything, the wound threshold should be lowered. Do you mean to tell me that it should be hard to pick out Guilliman or St. Celestine from among the army, when they're either the size of a small vehicle or a flying angel?

**Daedalus81**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

If anything, the wound threshold should be lowered. Do you mean to tell me that it should be hard to pick out Guilliman or St. Celestine from among the army, when they're either the size of a small vehicle or a flying angel?

With all the bullets flying, smoke, explosions, and intervening enemies...maybe?

**dode74**

Daedalus81 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
No, you don't, you need to kill all 4 of the intervening infantry, because otherwise DP1 and DP2 are not the closest units. If you kill all 4 of the Green Infantry, then yes, DP1 and DP2 can be shot because the "unless it is closest" clause kicks in and overrides the 3" bubble of protection.

Gotcha. Yea, still not particularly concerned. I'm not sure i'll ever get the chance to see the wonder-twin DPs in action.

Maybe not, but wonder-twin or even triplet Chaplain Dreads will likely be a thing.

**BaconCatBug**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Siegfriedfr wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Why removing that? Do you really want a Titan warlord to be screened by a sentinel?
Do they have the CHARACTER keyword ?

Leman Russ Tank Commanders do.
Do you want to deal with an untargetable Leman Russ? The character dreadnought is bad enough because there's few ways to engage a character and even fewer that can wound a vehicle profile.

If anything, the wound threshold should be lowered. Do you mean to tell me that it should be hard to pick out Guilliman or St. Celestine from among the army, when they're either the size of a small vehicle or a flying angel?

Yeah, it's silly. Dreadnoughts especially. A Bjorn can somehow be screened by Scouts but a Venerable Dreadnought can't?

**Daedalus81**

dode74 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
No, you don't, you need to kill all 4 of the intervening infantry, because otherwise DP1 and DP2 are not the closest units. If you kill all 4 of the Green Infantry, then yes, DP1 and DP2 can be shot because the "unless it is closest" clause kicks in and overrides the 3" bubble of protection.

Gotcha. Yea, still not particularly concerned. I'm not sure i'll ever get the chance to see the wonder-twin DPs in action.
Maybe not, but wonder-twin or even triplet Chaplain Dreads will likely be a thing.

I doubt the new CP setup will support 3 Chappies. Nor do I imagine their points or rules will go untouched.

**dode74**

Daedalus81 wrote:
dode74 wrote:
Maybe not, but wonder-twin or even triplet Chaplain Dreads will likely be a thing.

I doubt the new CP setup will support 3 Chappies. Nor do I imagine their points or rules will go untouched.

Maybe not. But there is a potential loophole there which will be exploited if it's not closed in some manner.

**Wakshaani**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Siegfriedfr wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Why removing that? Do you really want a Titan warlord to be screened by a sentinel?
Do they have the CHARACTER keyword ?

Leman Russ Tank Commanders do.
Do you want to deal with an untargetable Leman Russ? The character dreadnought is bad enough because there's few ways to engage a character and even fewer that can wound a vehicle profile.

If anything, the wound threshold should be lowered. Do you mean to tell me that it should be hard to pick out Guilliman or St. Celestine from among the army, when they're either the size of a small vehicle or a flying angel?
Yeah, it's silly. Dreadnoughts especially. A Bjorn can somehow be screened by Scouts but a Venerable Dreadnought can't?

Depends... how many wounds does Bjorn have?

**Daedalus81**

dode74 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
dode74 wrote:
Maybe not, but wonder-twin or even triplet Chaplain Dreads will likely be a thing.

I doubt the new CP setup will support 3 Chappies. Nor do I imagine their points or rules will go untouched.
Maybe not. But there is a potential loophole there which will be exploited if it's not closed in some manner.

Yea, if it becomes a problem it'll be fixed with the Fall FAQ or w/e schedule they keep for that. Just have to keep our eyes open for it.

**Brutus_Apex**

hmmm, Its almost as if they should have just brought back Independent Character rules and had characters join units. No, that would have solved too many issues. What was I thinking?...

**Daedalus81**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
hmmm, Its almost as if they should have just brought back Independent Character rules and had characters join units. No, that would have solved too many issues. What was I thinking?...

No thanks. That was the rule that created death stars.

**BaconCatBug**

Wakshaani wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Siegfriedfr wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Why removing that? Do you really want a Titan warlord to be screened by a sentinel?
Do they have the CHARACTER keyword ?

Leman Russ Tank Commanders do.
Do you want to deal with an untargetable Leman Russ? The character dreadnought is bad enough because there's few ways to engage a character and even fewer that can wound a vehicle profile.

If anything, the wound threshold should be lowered. Do you mean to tell me that it should be hard to pick out Guilliman or St. Celestine from among the army, when they're either the size of a small vehicle or a flying angel?
Yeah, it's silly. Dreadnoughts especially. A Bjorn can somehow be screened by Scouts but a Venerable Dreadnought can't?

Depends... how many wounds does Bjorn have?

The same as a Venerable Dreadnought, 8.