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See, I actually like the guardians. The mold lines aren't great, but other than that, I definitely prefer them to the New GW approach to plastic kits like you see with say Intercessors where everything is more or less fixed (even in the multi-part variants) and you have to cut them up to get more than 5 variations.
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
Except that they don't when you have an equal distribution of force. The problem you experience is putting 100 points into melee with a unit almost twice that and expecting to come out heroes. That will never go well. But even *if* you do that the Primaris kill 3 or 4 models to the 2 to 3 you would kill. Does that really qualify as "kicking their fething ass"?
We went over this. So many damn pages in that thread. We talked about banshees, harlequins, genestealers, daemonettes, equal points to equal points, ignoring doctrines, ignoring chapter tactics, teleported straight into melee with no overwatch allowed and given the first round of attacks. And Intercessors either beat them, or came damn, damn close, against units that basically zero of their points budget put into shooting versus a unit that out-shoots fire warriors at 30" (again, equal points vs equal points).
I really do not know what you have invested into continuously denying that these guys are negatively impacting the overall gameplay of 40k. Anyone with a brain can watch a batrep of how marines used to play back in the "mobile close range shooting" days versus the current "static gunball" setup and go "oh, that SUCKS to look at and play and watch."
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
All of the old eldar sculpts are beautiful and timeless. I'm probably in the minority when I say I'm really dreading what their new sculptors are going to do to my old eldar infantry models.
I painted up 5 of the new banshees a few months ago and every time I look at them I wish I could have just bought metal ones instead. The vibe of the new sculpts is just so... video game-y. I've spent a lot of time working with ZBrush artists for work and I just can't help but see the Zbrush aesthetic pervading all of the new releases.
But what can I say, times change, and people's aesthetic preferences evolve.
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
Except that they don't when you have an equal distribution of force. The problem you experience is putting 100 points into melee with a unit almost twice that and expecting to come out heroes. That will never go well. But even *if* you do that the Primaris kill 3 or 4 models to the 2 to 3 you would kill. Does that really qualify as "kicking their fething ass"?
Heaven´s forbid I expect a melee only elite to take out a basic shooty trooper. A unit with 30 inch guns that wreak havoc on most other troops does not deserve to also kick melee only units in the teeth in melee.
yukishiro1 wrote: See, I actually like the guardians. The mold lines aren't great, but other than that, I definitely prefer them to the New GW approach to plastic kits like you see with say Intercessors where everything is more or less fixed (even in the multi-part variants) and you have to cut them up to get more than 5 variations.
I challenge you to create more than five variations of an eldar guardian that look like anything but a bad joke. You're going to get
4) well let's see if I take the U-hand and I chop off the finger tips I can MAYBE jam a grenade in here and MAYBE create some kind of grenade-throwing thing....feth the grenade is molded on to that ammo banana bit, let me just try and clip this off without mangling it....
5) I give up.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Oh they all look samey, no doubt. But not exactly the same. That's what I like about them. You can have a squad of 20 with no complete repeats, even if like 15 of them are basically similar.
That said, guardians are completely boned in 9th because the weapon platform brings them to 11 models, which is no-go land from everything we've seen. I don't think you'll ever see them on the table again unless they switch things around in the codex and integrate the weapon platform with the 10th model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 19:39:54
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, i hate the guardian sculpts. They've got everything I despise about old plastic - huge blatant mold lines, awful posing, zero customization, and wonky proportions. I'd have way more eldar if Guardians were not a basis of their design.The vyper and war walker also look like ass.
The basic tanks are fine, as are wraithlords.
Woah, whoah, woah, vypers are beautiful! The kit could use some retooling, but those sculpts....*chef's kiss*........
Despise everything about the gun. The basic shape of the craft is fine, but the gunner is just awful IMO.
Personally my problem is the underslung gun. I like conversions but I shouldn't need to convert basic weapons.
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slave.entity wrote: All of the old eldar sculpts are beautiful and timeless. I'm probably in the minority when I say I'm really dreading what their new sculptors are going to do to my old eldar infantry models.
I painted up 5 of the new banshees a few months ago and every time I look at them I wish I could have just bought metal ones instead. The vibe of the new sculpts is just so... video game-y. I've spent a lot of time working with ZBrush artists for work and I just can't help but see the Zbrush aesthetic pervading all of the new releases.
But what can I say, times change, and people's aesthetic preferences evolve.
Sell me all of your pewter
Oh I want new models but I also don't want GW to do them. They'll all be standing on convenient rocks. I never expected the galaxy to be full of Drama Rocks. It's a rock and a hard place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 19:51:14
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
I always have liked the current version plastic guardians but have always wished for maybe a couple more leg/stance variations. I mean we currently have what, two options? Wide stance and wide stance leaning slightly in one direction?
shoot, just one new sprue with some leg variations (running, kneeling, narrow stance) would revitalize both Guardians and Avengers....
And to add, totally agree with pm713 - very tired of the posing on rock thing that is so popular now. In particular the "leaping off chunk of Eldar ruin" pose. I wonder if there are special eldar scouts that go in before battle to seed every battlefield with those chunks of ruins so that troops are more effective and can pose appropriately once the fight starts....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/23 20:48:43
I think the Drukhari lucked out with the timing of their model refresh, the Kabalite and Wych sculpts are a great balance between detail and customisation.
Galas wrote:Eldar can play with autarchs and warlocks and still be competitive, at least much more than many other armies if they don't take their mandatory HQs or characters, speaking about 8th.
I disagree and dont think you have played much eldar this edition.
Show me one competitive lists that didint take 2 farseers + warlock or 1 farseer +1/2 warlocks.
What we were most hobbled by is taking mandatory troop choises because they suck.. One guardian bomb is the max you'd might WANT to take.
The entire edition Eldar relied on <Big bloob unit of choice> + doom + guide. Rinse. Repeat. And have under-pointed alitoic Crimson hunter exarchs flying overhead.
This was the only viable build really. Even at the heyday of Doom working with other edlari it was the same concept. Ynnari double tapping was a terrible rules design.
However that big blob of choice has NEVER been scorpions, banshees, hawks or warp spiders this edition. Wasting a key psychic power to buff up a max 10 man expensive T3 infantry unit which will evaporate nexct turn is just not efficient.
Any eldar player worth his salt knows what im talking about. ere As an eldar player I hated the fact that unless I took 3 crimson hunter exarchs + 2 farseers + warlock I was essentialy gimping my army.
PA has somewhat fixed this with EC but there clear abuse there. None of these things have made the aspect warrior better as he is still tied down to either being 5 or 10 man squad and I think thats where the issue is. Give me 3 man teams with exarchs or 15-20 man deathblobs and I can work with that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Aspect warriors and Thier immortal demi god founders (ignoring the lackluster stats) have always been the most compelling and original concept in 40k for me. Complex philosophies of war embodying specific aspects of the war gods many forms.
They were far more interesting than space marines. I still love my space Wolves, but they're not really space marines. They're space barbarians that use marine equipment. The units are conceptually different.
But the philosophy-cum-fighting aspect, with shrines and those souls so lost on the path that their damnation grants them amazing fighting ability and special powers was just a really great concept.
They appear to be in a bit of financial limbo though. GW seems only interested in remaking units of they can do something new to justify the sale or I imagine they're afraid no one will buy the new models and just keep using the old.
Banshees took forever to appear and have nothing unique (except the triskele originating from the 4th ed list) on the sprue.
It boggles my mind that they don't just add one or two weapon options to them to justify the sale. Banshees taking mirror swords at the cost of their pistols for example.
They quadrupled the options available for wraithguard when they made them in plastic, but banshees got nothing.
It seems like they're not interested in them at all.
Id love to more details on the aspect shrines. What does an initiate look like compared to a warrior. What about those who keep treading the same path, how are they different to an aspect warrior that has only been on it once?
And of course all the a varieties of exarch that could exist within A shrine. Ancient ones that learned from the Phoenix themself, newer ones more consumed by unending war as the galaxy goes up in flames.
The aspect shrines have so much potential for interesting creative development which has been completely squandered. Marines now get to have Thier units duplicated, while aspects don't even have their independent exarchs any more and have mediocre squad leaders.
Argive wrote: I hated the fact that unless I took 3 crimson hunter exarchs + 2 farseers + warlock I was essentialy gimping my army.
Yeah, I found this to be true in all my eldar games in 8th. The Alaitoc CHE air wing + bikeseer/bikelock pretty consistently showed up in all of my competitive lists.
Aspect warrior and wraith infantry only showed up in casual games where my opponent and I explicitly agreed to bring fewer bleeding edge units. Didn't happen as often as I'd have liked since in my local meta most people seemed to prefer competitive.
in my day we had 1 and we was happy to prise off the lasguns when they finally remembered about s-cats, and we had to glue tuppence to each swooping hawk to keep it upright, but you try telling sproutlings that today
now which cloud was i yelling at
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 22:47:01
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
I think my decision to invest in sotrm guardians seems to have been the right call (8-24 squad size). 10 Man squads will be the sweet spots and thats why the storm guardian should hopefully come into his own. Unless of course hes now pointed as much as as a space marine..
Argive wrote: I hated the fact that unless I took 3 crimson hunter exarchs + 2 farseers + warlock I was essentialy gimping my army.
Yeah, I found this to be true in all my eldar games in 8th. The Alaitoc CHE air wing + bikeseer/bikelock pretty consistently showed up in all of my competitive lists.
Aspect warrior and wraith infantry only showed up in casual games where my opponent and I explicitly agreed to bring fewer bleeding edge units. Didn't happen as often as I'd have liked since in my local meta most people seemed to prefer competitive.
My shadow specters did appear in a bunch of "competitive" games. Pretty much took them as a staple before covid but they are really an outlier case and they were the fluff bunny cool unit option. Dropping them for something like a CHE or a spinner would have been a far more valid choice. The similarly functioning warp spiders only used twice. both times very mobile but extremely underwhelming and not resilient.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 23:15:31
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.
I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.
And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.
I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.
Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems an awful bitter attitude to take. "I hope they get dragged down to our level" doesn't seem very constructive compared to "I hope my faction could get some improvements too."
To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Thing is that, in a vaccuum, I don't actually wanted Eldar to be dragged through the dirt.
I want Eldar to be left alone (relatively speaking). They've consistently been one of the most broken armies at a competitive level for multiple editions, and even in a casual non-optimized setting they've had strong viable lists which don't center around "Put 4 wraith knights on the table."
I want the focus to be on other armies. I want Orks, Nids, Crons, and the forgotten NPC races to be given love so that they can have more than one good unit in the entire dex - or in some cases, at least one good unit in their entire dex. Then, once those armies have at least one list that's competitive and strong (and won't be nerfed the next week) as well as a few units which are good in a casual setting, we can worry about the theme for Eldar. That's my ideal outcome.
But. When you then have Eldar players saying that it's not enough to have top-tier meta warping lists and other 'okay' lists, that frustrates me for obvious reasons. Especially when they behave like their faction's identity should take precedence over other armies being able to function at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 23:58:06
Eldar having a mix of good and bad stuff every edition is probably as good as it gets for ANY faction in 40k. It sure as hell beats Tau shield drone spam or reanimation protocols or even space marines for the whole first half of 8th.
Not disagreeing with any of the complaints about eldar infantry in this thread btw, just saying that every faction has these same problems and just about all of them have it much worse than eldar.
I'm thrilled to see the Necron ruleset finally get some love in 9th edition.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/24 00:11:38
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.
I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.
And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.
I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.
Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems an awful bitter attitude to take. "I hope they get dragged down to our level" doesn't seem very constructive compared to "I hope my faction could get some improvements too."
To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Thing is that, in a vaccuum, I don't actually wanted Eldar to be dragged through the dirt.
I want Eldar to be left alone (relatively speaking). They've consistently been one of the most broken armies at a competitive level for multiple editions, and even in a casual non-optimized setting they've had strong viable lists which don't center around "Put 4 wraith knights on the table."
I want the focus to be on other armies. I want Orks, Nids, Crons, and the forgotten NPC races to be given love so that they can have more than one good unit in the entire dex - or in some cases, at least one good unit in their entire dex. Then, once those armies have at least one list that's competitive and strong (and won't be nerfed the next week) as well as a few units which are good in a casual setting, we can worry about the theme for Eldar. That's my ideal outcome.
But. When you then have Eldar players saying that it's not enough to have top-tier meta warping lists and other 'okay' lists, that frustrates me for obvious reasons. Especially when they behave like their faction's identity should take precedence over other armies being able to function at all.
Dude, what codex doesn't have a good unit? Hell, even in 7th, I can't think of an army that didn't have literally *1* solid thing (Orks: Boyz, Nids: Flyrants, CSM: ...okay, gotta think about that one but I'm sure there's an example). That just seems like major hyperbole.
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.
I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.
And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.
I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.
Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems an awful bitter attitude to take. "I hope they get dragged down to our level" doesn't seem very constructive compared to "I hope my faction could get some improvements too."
To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Thing is that, in a vaccuum, I don't actually wanted Eldar to be dragged through the dirt.
I want Eldar to be left alone (relatively speaking). They've consistently been one of the most broken armies at a competitive level for multiple editions, and even in a casual non-optimized setting they've had strong viable lists which don't center around "Put 4 wraith knights on the table."
I want the focus to be on other armies. I want Orks, Nids, Crons, and the forgotten NPC races to be given love so that they can have more than one good unit in the entire dex - or in some cases, at least one good unit in their entire dex. Then, once those armies have at least one list that's competitive and strong (and won't be nerfed the next week) as well as a few units which are good in a casual setting, we can worry about the theme for Eldar. That's my ideal outcome.
But. When you then have Eldar players saying that it's not enough to have top-tier meta warping lists and other 'okay' lists, that frustrates me for obvious reasons. Especially when they behave like their faction's identity should take precedence over other armies being able to function at all.
Dude, what codex doesn't have a good unit? Hell, even in 7th, I can't think of an army that didn't have literally *1* solid thing (Orks: Boyz, Nids: Flyrants, CSM: ...okay, gotta think about that one but I'm sure there's an example). That just seems like major hyperbole.
Corsairs. R&H.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.
I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.
And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.
I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.
Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems an awful bitter attitude to take. "I hope they get dragged down to our level" doesn't seem very constructive compared to "I hope my faction could get some improvements too."
To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Thing is that, in a vaccuum, I don't actually wanted Eldar to be dragged through the dirt.
I want Eldar to be left alone (relatively speaking). They've consistently been one of the most broken armies at a competitive level for multiple editions, and even in a casual non-optimized setting they've had strong viable lists which don't center around "Put 4 wraith knights on the table."
I want the focus to be on other armies. I want Orks, Nids, Crons, and the forgotten NPC races to be given love so that they can have more than one good unit in the entire dex - or in some cases, at least one good unit in their entire dex. Then, once those armies have at least one list that's competitive and strong (and won't be nerfed the next week) as well as a few units which are good in a casual setting, we can worry about the theme for Eldar. That's my ideal outcome.
But. When you then have Eldar players saying that it's not enough to have top-tier meta warping lists and other 'okay' lists, that frustrates me for obvious reasons. Especially when they behave like their faction's identity should take precedence over other armies being able to function at all.
Dude, what codex doesn't have a good unit? Hell, even in 7th, I can't think of an army that didn't have literally *1* solid thing (Orks: Boyz, Nids: Flyrants, CSM: ...okay, gotta think about that one but I'm sure there's an example). That just seems like major hyperbole.
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
Except that they don't when you have an equal distribution of force. The problem you experience is putting 100 points into melee with a unit almost twice that and expecting to come out heroes. That will never go well. But even *if* you do that the Primaris kill 3 or 4 models to the 2 to 3 you would kill. Does that really qualify as "kicking their fething ass"?
We went over this. So many damn pages in that thread. We talked about banshees, harlequins, genestealers, daemonettes, equal points to equal points, ignoring doctrines, ignoring chapter tactics, teleported straight into melee with no overwatch allowed and given the first round of attacks. And Intercessors either beat them, or came damn, damn close, against units that basically zero of their points budget put into shooting versus a unit that out-shoots fire warriors at 30" (again, equal points vs equal points).
I really do not know what you have invested into continuously denying that these guys are negatively impacting the overall gameplay of 40k. Anyone with a brain can watch a batrep of how marines used to play back in the "mobile close range shooting" days versus the current "static gunball" setup and go "oh, that SUCKS to look at and play and watch."
I really do not know what you have invested
Hyperbole.
That's what rubs me the wrong way. In no bat rep or personal game have I played did someone express how devastating Intercessors were - save the one time the guy at LVO got a 1 in million roll with the TH. No, its the TFCs, Mortis Dreads, Levis, and so on that negatively impact the game.
Then we "discuss" how Outriders are super-super human, because they have 6 attacks. And like a man made from straw people hold up Scorpions and say, "See? Only two S4 attacks!". As if Mandiblasters do nothing all the while ignoring that Outriders get half their attacks from gear and that they're literally an Intercessor on a bike that loses half their attacks the next turn. It is just so exhausting to listen to the same, "hur hur muhreenz here we go again" while people consistently fail to look at the whole picture.
It's this ridiculous notion that somehow only attacks matter. As if Primaris who are 2A are unequivocally benefited by special rules. And what do they get?
+1A first round
Double Tap
Morale (which no one cares about)
An extra AP sometimes
It's as if we forget that Banshees, who have the same base attacks as Primaris have:
- Run and gun without penalty
- Advance & Charge
+3" Charge
-1 to be hit in melee
- Block O/W
- and the option for abilities like -2A to an enemy
Sure, we ignore marines traits. We also ignore that Aspect Warriors can get D+1 on 6s to wound and another +1 to charge. Does anyone do that? No, because it's a gak ton easier to zip some planes and bikes around.
Does this mean Banshees are bad? No, it means the melee system needs work.
If people think equal points of Banshees should win a decisive victory against equal points Intercessors. That's garbage, too. Most everything requires a concerted effort to remove when working in equal points. Anything otherwise breaks the game - and those units are out there (Centurions, Character Dreads, etc). But Intercessors aren't that. Even they can't win that decisive victory.
Does that mean marines are balanced? Frig, no. They're centered around the super doctrines and there was a reason before the FAQ that everyone tried to stay in Devastator, because Intercessors often weren't the tool doing the work. But look at what's happened already --
Iron Hands O/W isn't so special any more.
Everyone's non-Infantry ignores move penalties like UM in tactical or IH in devastator.
Everyone has access to the RG -1 to hit through dense cover.
The problem isn't that Intercessors are too good or that Banshees are bad. It's that melee isn't currently rewarding and some marine units have too many rule layers available to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 01:02:36
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.
I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.
And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.
I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.
Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems an awful bitter attitude to take. "I hope they get dragged down to our level" doesn't seem very constructive compared to "I hope my faction could get some improvements too."
To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Thing is that, in a vaccuum, I don't actually wanted Eldar to be dragged through the dirt.
I want Eldar to be left alone (relatively speaking). They've consistently been one of the most broken armies at a competitive level for multiple editions, and even in a casual non-optimized setting they've had strong viable lists which don't center around "Put 4 wraith knights on the table."
I want the focus to be on other armies. I want Orks, Nids, Crons, and the forgotten NPC races to be given love so that they can have more than one good unit in the entire dex - or in some cases, at least one good unit in their entire dex. Then, once those armies have at least one list that's competitive and strong (and won't be nerfed the next week) as well as a few units which are good in a casual setting, we can worry about the theme for Eldar. That's my ideal outcome.
But. When you then have Eldar players saying that it's not enough to have top-tier meta warping lists and other 'okay' lists, that frustrates me for obvious reasons. Especially when they behave like their faction's identity should take precedence over other armies being able to function at all.
Dude, what codex doesn't have a good unit? Hell, even in 7th, I can't think of an army that didn't have literally *1* solid thing (Orks: Boyz, Nids: Flyrants, CSM: ...okay, gotta think about that one but I'm sure there's an example). That just seems like major hyperbole.
Corsairs. R&H.
Neither of which were Codexes. And both of which were functional in 7th, so... strike 1, strike 2 (not that I don't agree they have issues in 8th, they most certainly do and I'm hoping the issues get a lot of attention).
7th ed BA only had ghetto bike capt.
BA were also quite bad in 7th, but again, they had 1 thing that at least sort of worked. I'm not promoting them out of the Nids-Orks-CSM ghetto but to say a codex was completely bereft of anything you could place on the table and not cringe at, as morganfreeman asserted, isn't true.
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
Except that they don't when you have an equal distribution of force. The problem you experience is putting 100 points into melee with a unit almost twice that and expecting to come out heroes. That will never go well. But even *if* you do that the Primaris kill 3 or 4 models to the 2 to 3 you would kill. Does that really qualify as "kicking their fething ass"?
We went over this. So many damn pages in that thread. We talked about banshees, harlequins, genestealers, daemonettes, equal points to equal points, ignoring doctrines, ignoring chapter tactics, teleported straight into melee with no overwatch allowed and given the first round of attacks. And Intercessors either beat them, or came damn, damn close, against units that basically zero of their points budget put into shooting versus a unit that out-shoots fire warriors at 30" (again, equal points vs equal points).
I really do not know what you have invested into continuously denying that these guys are negatively impacting the overall gameplay of 40k. Anyone with a brain can watch a batrep of how marines used to play back in the "mobile close range shooting" days versus the current "static gunball" setup and go "oh, that SUCKS to look at and play and watch."
I really do not know what you have invested
Hyperbole.
That's what rubs me the wrong way. In no bat rep or personal game have I played did someone express how devastating Intercessors were - save the one time the guy at LVO got a 1 in million roll with the TH. No, its the TFCs, Mortis Dreads, Levis, and so on that negatively impact the game.
Then we "discuss" how Outriders are super-super human, because they have 6 attacks. And like a man made from straw people hold up Scorpions and say, "See? Only two S4 attacks!". As if Mandiblasters do nothing all the while ignoring that Outriders get half their attacks from gear and that they're literally an Intercessor on a bike that loses half their attacks the next turn. It is just so exhausting to listen to the same, "hur hur muhreenz here we go again" while people consistently fail to look at the whole picture.
It's this ridiculous notion that somehow only attacks matter. As if Primaris who are 2A are unequivocally benefited by special rules. And what do they get?
+1A first round
Double Tap
Morale (which no one cares about)
An extra AP sometimes
It's as if we forget that Banshees, who have the same base attacks as Primaris have:
- Run and gun without penalty
- Advance & Charge
+3" Charge
-1 to be hit in melee
- Block O/W
- and the option for abilities like -2A to an enemy
Sure, we ignore marines traits. We also ignore that Aspect Warriors can get D+1 on 6s to wound and another +1 to charge. Does anyone do that? No, because it's a gak ton easier to zip some planes and bikes around.
Does this mean Banshees are bad? No, it means the melee system needs work.
If people think equal points of Banshees should win a decisive victory against equal points Intercessors. That's garbage, too. Most everything requires a concerted effort to remove when working in equal points. Anything otherwise breaks the game - and those units are out there (Centurions, Character Dreads, etc). But Intercessors aren't that. Even they can't win that decisive victory.
Does that mean marines are balanced? Frig, no. They're centered around the super doctrines and there was a reason before the FAQ that everyone tried to stay in Devastator, because Intercessors often weren't the tool doing the work. But look at what's happened already --
Iron Hands O/W isn't so special any more.
Everyone's non-Infantry ignores move penalties like UM in tactical or IH in devastator.
Everyone has access to the RG -1 to hit through dense cover.
The problem isn't that Intercessors are too good or that Banshees are bad. It's that melee isn't currently rewarding and some marine units have too many rule layers available to them.
Christ dude, proxy models, put the models on the table and run them. Lemme know if you see any good performance out of Banshees or Scorpions or any of the out-of-vogue Aspect Warriors. Because I sure haven't. Whereas, whenever I play Intercessors, I get way more than 85 points worth of value out of those fethers. Sure, they're not always or necessarily usually the stars of the show (though way more than you're indicating in your post). But just because they're not Thunderfire Cannons and obviously being OP doesn't mean they're not game-warpingly strong.
It's not like Eldar players are out here defending anything that's considered good or even passable. They're defending units the community completely regards as gak. So the whole "apples and oranges grown in one glorious CA orange field" comparisons you throw out here just don't move the needle for anybody.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 01:13:17
Christ dude, proxy models, put the models on the table and run them. Lemme know if you see any good performance out of Banshees or Scorpions or any of the out-of-vogue Aspect Warriors. Because I sure haven't. Whereas, whenever I play Intercessors, I get way more than 85 points worth of value out of those fethers. Sure, they're not always or necessarily usually the stars of the show (though way more than you're indicating in your post). But just because they're not Thunderfire Cannons and obviously being OP doesn't mean they're not game-warpingly strong.
It's not like Eldar players are out here defending anything that's considered good or even passable. They're defending units the community completely regards as gak. So the whole "apples and oranges grown in one glorious CA orange field" comparisons you throw out here just don't move the needle for anybody.
I likely couldn't make them work. I recognize and agree there are issues with melee. I just don't think people are looking at the right things or arguing in equal terms.
If people think equal points of Banshees should win a decisive victory against equal points Intercessors. That's garbage, too. Most everything requires a concerted effort to remove when working in equal points. Anything otherwise breaks the game - and those units are out there (Centurions, Character Dreads, etc). But Intercessors aren't that. Even they can't win that decisive victory.
5 Intercessors can win a decisive victory against equal points Banshees though. All it takes is passive buffing via CM and Lt., or the Rapid Fire 2 Strat, plus Tac Doctrine. .666x.666x.83x20 = 7.3 Banshees dead at 30", leaving the squad neutered. Off the top of my head I can't think of an easy way to buff Banshees to do the same in reverse. Best available is Doom, which is far from passive.
5 Intercessors can RF and charge the 10 Banshees and kill 6.3 of them without any buff other than the automatically active Doctrine. 7 kills if using the Assault bolter thing. The 2+Exarch do 2.3 wounds in return. I'd call that decisive. The Intercessors have a spare couple points to spend on a Power Sword or something, too, which gets another dead Banshee. At -8 models the Banshees likely dissapear with morale, if I'm not mistaken.
And that's un-buffed. Intercessors are easier to passively buff, easier to actively buff, and start with the advantage that they don't have to get close to win the fight. Chapter Master, Lt, RF2 gets 11 odd wounds at 30".
Right - as I mentioned earlier - you don't often get to easily remove units when facing off with equal points. This example is 2 CP and 304 points killing 113. Yes, I understand the nature of bubbles and that this isn't the most correct comparison, but that point difference is nevertheless enough to drive almost two night spinners between them.
I'm actually pretty happy with my craftworlders at the moment. Some vehicles (falcons and vypers for instance) are really dependent on EC to work, but I've genuinely enjoyed using them since EC became an option.
I have plenty of little tweaks I'd like to see, but the only units I really, really struggle to use are storm guardians (as anything but a cheap troop tax that accomplishes nothing) and our elite slot aspect warriors.
* Banshees: I've fielded a lot this edition (I play Iybraesil). Currently, they're sort of useful for tying up non-flying shooty guns. It sounds like that won't really work in 9th (I don't want to turn them into a sacrifice for russ sponsons). They're advertised as a speedy, anti-heavy-infantry unit, and they really, really stink at that. If they're meant to chop up marines (even non-primaris ones), they should probably get an extra attack or something. I'd gladly take a 50% points hike if they could actually hurt something again.
*Scorpions: Also don't really hurt things. Can take a punch, but falling back means that they usually charge and then just get shot to death. I'd like them to either be better at charging out of deepstrike or else treat their mandiblasters as a strength 4 attack that hits on a 4+ or 3+ or whatever. The latter would make them much better at chopping up swarms. The mortal wounds on 6+ thing usually doesn't do much and also is more useful against elite infantry meaning they have weird overlap with the power sword wielding banshees. Make scorpions chop up orks. Make banshees chop up marines.
* Fire dragons. Making vehicles more durable this edition was a reasonable move, but the dragons have really lost their groove. Five of them don't reliably kill a tank. Ten of them do, but also cost a fortune. If you put them in a serpent, you're looking at an almost 400 point unit. If you deepstrike them, you're partly at the mercy of your opponent's positioning. Even if you do kill a decent target with them, they'll almost always die the turn after arriving on the table. Not sure what to do with these guys though. It's hard to justify making them much cheaper, but it's also tough to give them even more offense on top of a meltagun and a special rule to improve their meltaguning.
*Shadow Spectres: These guys kind of work, but they could really stand to ditch the ynnari tax they received in one of the early FAQs. Giving them built-in deepstrike wouldn't go amiss either.
Oh And I guess I'd throw Dire Avengers on this list too. In a vacuum, I actually really like where avengers are. Exarch powers and gear let you make them either reasonably shooty or reasonably good at absorbing a charge. The thing is that 8th edition is so lethal, it's really hard to keep them alive long enough to do anything. If you deploy them on foot, they evaporate. If you put them in a serpent or deepstrike them, you'd probably get similar results from a guardian squad for cheaper.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Right - as I mentioned earlier - you don't often get to easily remove units when facing off with equal points. This example is 2 CP and 304 points killing 113. Yes, I understand the nature of bubbles and that this isn't the most correct comparison, but that point difference is nevertheless enough to drive almost two night spinners between them.
That's nice. Did you read the rest of the post? Specifically the part where unsupported Intercessors of equal points average 8 dead Banshees before the Banshees do anything?
And no, counting the Intercessors as 304 points isnt going to fly.
Eldar- 4436 pts
