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How much CP do you think you'll be spending on reserves? Looks like you can pump 10 CP into reserving your entire army if you wish.

The bullets make me think Fallback is the usual business. Does this change the melee dynamic for anyone?

Also...Aircraft don't have to come from the edge - they just pop in like deepstrike.

I had kind of hoped that turn 4+ you could come from the opponent's edge. Hmm, this requires some serious thinking to assess the real utility.

Link to the article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/24/master-your-strategygw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

And it does note that units that already have a 'deepstrike' like ability don't cost CP to put into reserves - meaning you can put any unit into this type of reserve.

(So again my Tallarn Stratagem is now rendered pointless, just like part of the doctrine - hopefully they'll replace that with something)

Overall not terrible, allows you to hide those squishy or glass cannon units off the board on turn 1, so less easy to be alpha struck I suppose.

Oooh! Morale.

So that sounds interesting. If you fail morale ONE model automatically flees and then there a chance all the others flee?

Ok, now we can say it for sure, we have all the key elements that we were looking for.

Hordes are done for. Only a massive point advantage for them would make them viable at this point.

The morale doesn't advantage them, the terrain rules are bad for hordes and obviously there are blasts.

Keep your hordes home for this edition!

I think these changes are brilliant and regarding horde and the morale rule I would say that this is a potential bonus. As someone who plays a lot of AoS with the current 8th edition morale rule I can say that these morale changes mean you are not sweeping half of your forces because of failed morale.

Spoletta wrote:
Ok, now we can say it for sure, we have all the key elements that we were looking for.

Hordes are done for. Only a massive point advantage for them would make them viable at this point.

The morale doesn't advantage them, the terrain rules are bad for hordes and obviously there are blasts.

Keep your hordes home for this edition!

OMFG stop. You didn't even pause to think about the rule.

All we need is a failed test and then marines lose a model and then 1/6 of the rest. So, leadership debuffing could be worthwhile.

On the horde end - let's actually do the math for how it works currently.

10 cultists die out of 30. Result is 14. 8 models flee.

And under the new rule? 1 model flees and 3 to 4 go to attrition.

HORDES ARE DEEEEAAADDDD

Well... the new morale system is better for hordes than the old one, at least.

But high-Ld MSU units are still basically never going to fail, so the changes mean nothing to them.

There is already a moral topic, make this one about reserves.

Moral > https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789465.page

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Ok, now we can say it for sure, we have all the key elements that we were looking for.

Hordes are done for. Only a massive point advantage for them would make them viable at this point.

The morale doesn't advantage them, the terrain rules are bad for hordes and obviously there are blasts.

Keep your hordes home for this edition!

OMFG stop. You didn't even pause to think about the rule.

All we need is a failed test and then marines lose a model and then 1/6 of the rest. So, leadership debuffing could be worthwhile.

On the horde end - let's actually do the math for how it works currently.

10 cultists die out of 30. Result is 14. 8 models flee.

And under the new rule? 1 model flees and 3 to 4 go to attrition.

HORDES ARE DEEEEAAADDDD

Ok i had TOTALLY misread that.

I thought that the combat attrition was in addition to ALL the usual morale losses.

This makes it much more interesting....

I don't see how this hugely impacts hordes over elite/regular units.

Hypothetical Unit with 30 models and 7 Leadership.

14 models from Hypothetical unit get killed in one turn.

Using old leadership, their Battleshock casualties would be D6 + 7 models fleeing. Average about 10 models fleeing.

Using new rules, they lose 1 model if they don't roll a 1 on their test. Then, you roll 15 d6. You'll lose 2-3 models if you get average dice.

I see this hurting something like an Intercessor or whatever other elite unit you could think of, without baked in immunity to battleshock, more than it does hordes.

Edit: Damn it, someone beat me to it already!

So, strategic reserves still only have a 25% chance of making a successful charge bar any special rule, even tho shooting is now out of bounds.
Can't deepstrike in emeny deployment zones for 3 turns, so backline gunlines cannot be neutralized in any way.

So 9th edition is pro-long range, pro-elites edition. Point taken.

How does this morale element not help hordes? Am I missing something?

I have 30 ork boyz in 8th ed. I take 20 casualties. I roll D6+20 and anything above my LD runs from the table. Let's say I roll a 3, for a total of 23. 17 models run (Ork Ld is 6? No idea, just guessing)

In 9th, I have 30 boyz. I take 20 casualties. I roll d6+20 and score a 23 total. I lose 1 boy. Then I take 22 attrition rolls, which in this case means I lose an additional 7 or so, for a total of 8. 1/3 chance to fail since I'm under half strength.

I'm saving 9 models under 9th, that would have run away in 8th.

What am I missing?

I mean, the entire point of 40k anymore is to remove handfuls of models, so of course blasts, terrain, etc. may not help with the sheer number of wounds, MWs, and other damage being thrown around (re-rolls for days), but this mechanic at least gives you more models on the table for larger units.

Finally, remember, Tournaments have also been really down on hordes because they take too long to play. When you have Tournament players providing feedback for the rules, is there any reason to believe you might not see a nerf to hordes?

Tournaments are all about mitigating any randomness in list building and game play (pick your own objectives, no maelstrom, build to your self-selected objectives, re-rolls so next to nothing ever fails - which is part of the rules, but still helps immensely in factoring firepower for lists, and now we're seeing the rules remove or limit random shots (blast). Coincidence?

This helps even blobs of Necron Warriors. Now you have to kill at least 19 out of 20.

They kept the 9" no touch bubble, i was REALLY hoping they removed that.

But they said last week you can jump into combat on your table edge, these new rules says you can not. I need to go find those old rules and see what and why its different.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They kept the 9" no touch bubble, i was REALLY hoping they removed that.

But they said last week you can jump into combat on your table edge, these new rules says you can not. I need to go find those old rules and see what and why its different.

They only gave us bullets. The full text may reveal more.

Article says this:

Strategic Reserves aren’t all about outflanking the enemy, though. Should your opponent overcommit with their initial attack, it’s possible to deliver a punishing counter-blow with your reinforcements. Strategic Reserves units can’t normally be set up within 9″ of any enemy models, but if you set them up within 1″ of your own battlefield edge, they can be set up within this distance – and even within the 1″ Engagement Range of enemy models! If they do so, they count as having made a charge move, and your opponent will be unable to fire Overwatch against them!

Nice. Baneblades can never ever be put into strategic reserve ever.

They've stated that units walking on from your own edge can walk right into combat and count as charging. It's in the article as well.

I like how units not on the table by turn 3 don't just auto-die now. Means a Mawloc can actually do it's thing.

Plus with the new vehicle rules a vehicle can drive onto the table turn 2 and shoot at full BS.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Nice. Baneblades can never ever be put into strategic reserve ever.

Why? Baneblades are PL 28. That's 3 CP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Nice. Baneblades can never ever be put into strategic reserve ever.

Why? Baneblades are PL 28. That's 3 CP.

They're more than 6" wide and so will never fit wholly within 6" of a board edge.

I think if they have no sponsons they might be just under 6". Still stupid though.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Because they're wider than 6"? I think if they have no sponsons they might be just under 6" though.

They're not (besides, some of the variants like the Stormhammer have non-optional sponsons anyways).

EDIT:
They might be slightly smaller depending on how they're modeled - mine have gubbins stuck on the outside (The little packs with coffee cups and lasrifles, jerry cans on shelves, etc) and are more than 6" wide. I realize the base unadorned chassis might be smaller, it's pretty close. Only reason I mention is an opponent brought this up to me at a tournament by putting his tablet against the edge and pressing my baneblade against it - it was more than 6" wide. But obviously the sticky-outy bits would affect that style of measurement.

They are with sponsons...

Twilight Pathways wrote:
They are with sponsons...

I meant they're not less than 6" wide. Again, I realize the base chassis might be, I have junk hanging off mine which never occurred to me might affect the game.

Kcalehc wrote:Link to the article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/24/master-your-strategygw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

And it does note that units that already have a 'deepstrike' like ability don't cost CP to put into reserves - meaning you can put any unit into this type of reserve.

(So again my Tallarn Stratagem is now rendered pointless, just like part of the doctrine - hopefully they'll replace that with something)

Overall not terrible, allows you to hide those squishy or glass cannon units off the board on turn 1, so less easy to be alpha struck I suppose.

The Tallarn Stratagem that allows you to put 3 units into Reserve for 3 CP and deploy them within 7" of any battlefield edge on Turn 2? I'm sure you can find a use for that, like 3 Leman Russes plus two Infantry units for less than the 4 CP cost under the current PL. It does downgrade the usefulness of the stratagem. We will have to see if GW changes it at all in Day 1 FAQ.

Siegfriedfr wrote:So, strategic reserves still only have a 25% chance of making a successful charge bar any special rule, even tho shooting is now out of bounds.
Can't deepstrike in emeny deployment zones for 3 turns, so backline gunlines cannot be neutralized in any way.

So 9th edition is pro-long range, pro-elites edition. Point taken.

Yes, you can't just get a good charge out of DS unless you have rules that allow that already. What's the change? At least this allows you more control over when and where the units arrive.

My thoughts on that:
- as Kcalehc said: that devaluates the Tallarn stratagem a bit. Though it still allows to put 3 Leman Russ (30 Power Rating, possibly more with the Points hike) + 2 Infantry Units in Deepstrike for 3 CP, so slightly discounted
- funny loophole: now every IG faction can put Deathstrike Missiles into deepstrike and let them arrive on turn 4 or 5 for an increased chance to fire without being molested by the enemy
- if "kill the warlord" plays a significant role for victory points in a mission, it might in some situations be an Option to just let him sit safely in deepstrike until turn 5.

Edit: alextroy was faster, sorry for the redundancy

What really changes is that you can decide how many units you deploy.

So you see the terrain elements available and based on that you decide which unit will go on the table and which are going out of it,

If you really want, and the opponent has no no-los weapons, you can probably get to turn 2 without a single model lost.

Having a Close combat core maneuvering toward the center objectives while staying in cover, and keeping everything else in reserve, could a popular play style in 9th.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
They are with sponsons...

I meant they're not less than 6" wide. Again, I realize the base chassis might be, I have junk hanging off mine which never occurred to me might affect the game.

I'm sure it will get sorted out. That's a pretty minor hiccup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:

- funny loophole: now every IG faction can put Deathstrike Missiles into deepstrike and let them arrive on turn 4 or 5 for an increased chance to fire without being molested by the enemy

I like the cut of your jib.

I like this rule. I think it is really going to advantage mid-range shooting more so than melee, other than holding a unit to defend your board edge (which I am not sure I am going to do). The turn 2 arrival is only limited against your opponents board edge and deployment zone, which means there is still a lot of real estate on the board edges to bring in units turn 2. I think this is going to help my Rubric marines pretty well to come in and be able to attack any objectives along the edge.

I do wish that units that innate deep strike etc. did have to pay for Reserves, the deep strike just changed how they could deploy. I think one of the issues with 8th was how good deep strike bombs were but they usually need like 2 HQ and a big unit to make them work, and paying CP for that would have balanced it a bit in my opinion. Overall I like how 9th is shaping up.

Seeing that this is yet another basic mechanic of the game that you need command points for I'm wondering if we'll actually have more CP available as they keep saying in every faction focus.
You need CP for Overwatch, kind of for Fallback, for strategic reserves, to upgrade some units - so in the end you might have 3CP left to use some of the 20+ strats that your faction has.