Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New Moral rules

I'm confused - I don't see anything in there that relates to the morals of the units being used.

There's definitely something in there regarding "morale", but nothing relating to any "moral" quandaries...

The new morale rules going to be a pain too watch if you play against hordyfactions.

imagine the following:
A 50 mutant rabble blob, get's blown half it's members to smithers.
So i first roll 1d6 and loose 1 more dude if i fail a 1/6 which is likely.
then i have to roll 24 d6 of which 1/3 is more losses so another 8.

Yet i still have to roll for all of them.

MOAR dice

Martel732 wrote:
MOAR dice

i do wonder though what will be the role of enforcers and commisars and equivalents to that?

Also overall morales became less deadly alot.

How about thinking of this like this:

"Optimal unit size will be a function of the unit's leadership."

Not Online!!! wrote:
The new morale rules going to be a pain too watch if you play against hordyfactions.

imagine the following:
A 50 mutant rabble blob, get's blown half it's members to smithers.
So i first roll 1d6 and loose 1 more dude if i fail a 1/6 which is likely.
then i have to roll 24 d6 of which 1/3 is more losses so another 8.

Yet i still have to roll for all of them.

Just wait until they add "reroll all failed attrition rolls" to atsknf.

YOU FOOL. That's awesome because it's even MOAR DICE.

And if aggressors don't move the turn they take a morale test, you roll double dice and then discard half of them.

Just wait until they add "reroll all failed attrition rolls" to atsknf.

Don't be dumb. They would never add that. That's what the new "SUPER SWORD BRETHEREN OF THE SHIELD OF HIS ETERNAL LIGHT PRIMARiS Captain's 12" aura will do! Obviously! As long as everything is wholly within the 12" but more than 9" from a enemy unit, but less than 6" from any table edge when measured from the azimuth of the radius of said aura, and provided the Captain moved less than 6" but more than 1 in the previous turn, as long as he has more than 1 wound remaining, and assuming all units are at less than 100% but more than 40% of their original potential starting strength*" Obviously.

As far as codex order - I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's either going to be a simultaneaous release, or Necrons will come a few short weeks AFTER the Marines. That just seems to be how they're rolling these days.

* In this case, "Original Potential Starting Strength, or "OPSS" refers not to how many models a unit ACTUALLY started the game with, but rather how many models they COULD have started the game with as stated in "MAX OPSS in the unit's data slate. Obviously.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The new morale rules going to be a pain too watch if you play against hordyfactions.

imagine the following:
A 50 mutant rabble blob, get's blown half it's members to smithers.
So i first roll 1d6 and loose 1 more dude if i fail a 1/6 which is likely.
then i have to roll 24 d6 of which 1/3 is more losses so another 8.

Yet i still have to roll for all of them.

Just wait until they add "reroll all failed attrition rolls" to atsknf.

They did mention rules interacting with attrition, but it can go both ways.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

tulun wrote:
SM getting a codex this early would be insulting to everyone, including SM players.

I actually bet against it. They have other ways of releasing their new datasheets, and they seem to be exploring that instead.

Yeah I think this is more likely. The SM book isn't even a year old.

February 2017 was the release of the Stormcast Eternals Battletome that combined Vanguard Chamber, Extremis Chamber, and the 'original' book.
July 2018 was the release of the Stormcast Eternals Battletome that brought in Endless Spells and the Sacrosanct Chamber.

I absolutely do think it's happening for Marines. The supplements can likely remain 'as is'.

One Year and half, compared to what, 11 months of current Marine codex?

The community has complained (rightly or otherwise) about the power level of marines and how obnoxious they are to play against with stacking rule buffs etc.

It's not surprising they'd release a new codex because the last one was so widely despised. It could do well if it's better written than the existing one though.

The community has complained (rightly or otherwise) about the power level of marines and how obnoxious they are to play against with stacking rule buffs etc.

It's not surprising they'd release a new codex because the last one was so widely despised. It could do well if it's better written than the existing one though.

I think releasing the new Marine dex first will be the "bow shot" for them signaling they really can't keep the 8th ed books truly compatible. Marines will likely come out first and behave radically differently than the 8th ed books. There will be a Marine 2.0 book probably a year or so into the edition once some of the other main factions get their new books.

Tycho wrote:

The community has complained (rightly or otherwise) about the power level of marines and how obnoxious they are to play against with stacking rule buffs etc.

It's not surprising they'd release a new codex because the last one was so widely despised. It could do well if it's better written than the existing one though.

I think releasing the new Marine dex first will be the "bow shot" for them signaling they really can't keep the 8th ed books truly compatible. Marines will likely come out first and behave radically differently than the 8th ed books. There will be a Marine 2.0 book probably a year or so into the edition once some of the other main factions get their new books.

You know that Marines are getting new units courtesy of Indomitus, right?

And not just like "oh here's a new character" or something. We're looking to see at least five or six. Eradicators(Gravis armoured, toting Meltarifles), Outriders(Bikers), Assault Intercessors(50/50 shot that these are going to be an update to the Intercessors datasheet rather than a whole new unit. Incursors are Troops and have the Close Support badge that Assault Intercessors do before anyone tries to argue that angle), Judiciar(the 'executioner' guy), Bladeguard Veterans(storm shields+power swords/pistols), and the Bladeguard Ancient.

It's arguable whether the Captain or Lieutenant would be a new unit or a new datasheet. I'd put them in the same camp as the Assault Intercessors, a possible new datasheet.
And that doesn't even get into the Faith and Fury related stuff like the stratagems or the fancy shmancy Chaplains.

They're getting a new Codex. Anyone thinking it's "because they really can't keep the 8th edition books truly compatible" is deluding themselves into ignoring all the content sitting out there.

I’m a bit disappointed by the new morale mechanic. It seems to be adding more dice rolling for not much real difference. There are still far too many ways to ignore morale in the game. I’ve never cared for the idea that morale is just another way to make the game more lethal and I was really hoping for something that reflected suppression/pinning and adding something persistent that reduced the effectiveness of a unit that failed morale rather than just killing more models.

The only plus side to the new system for me is that there’s now a greater effect from morale from units under half strength. So now if a unit suffers casualties in successive turns the impact is greater in the second turn if that’s when a unit drops below half strength. Overall though, I think this is pretty lacklustre.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know that Marines are getting new units courtesy of Indomitus, right?

And not just like "oh here's a new character" or something. We're looking to see at least five or six. Eradicators(Gravis armoured, toting Meltarifles), Outriders(Bikers), Assault Intercessors(50/50 shot that these are going to be an update to the Intercessors datasheet rather than a whole new unit. Incursors are Troops and have the Close Support badge that Assault Intercessors do before anyone tries to argue that angle), Judiciar(the 'executioner' guy), Bladeguard Veterans(storm shields+power swords/pistols), and the Bladeguard Ancient.

It's arguable whether the Captain or Lieutenant would be a new unit or a new datasheet. I'd put them in the same camp as the Assault Intercessors, a possible new datasheet.
And that doesn't even get into the Faith and Fury related stuff like the stratagems or the fancy shmancy Chaplains.

They're getting a new Codex. Anyone thinking it's "because they really can't keep the 8th edition books truly compatible" is deluding themselves into ignoring all the content sitting out there.

So, GW splitting off the chapters was a good idea?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know that Marines are getting new units courtesy of Indomitus, right?

And not just like "oh here's a new character" or something. We're looking to see at least five or six. Eradicators(Gravis armoured, toting Meltarifles), Outriders(Bikers), Assault Intercessors(50/50 shot that these are going to be an update to the Intercessors datasheet rather than a whole new unit. Incursors are Troops and have the Close Support badge that Assault Intercessors do before anyone tries to argue that angle), Judiciar(the 'executioner' guy), Bladeguard Veterans(storm shields+power swords/pistols), and the Bladeguard Ancient.

It's arguable whether the Captain or Lieutenant would be a new unit or a new datasheet. I'd put them in the same camp as the Assault Intercessors, a possible new datasheet.
And that doesn't even get into the Faith and Fury related stuff like the stratagems or the fancy shmancy Chaplains.

They're getting a new Codex. Anyone thinking it's "because they really can't keep the 8th edition books truly compatible" is deluding themselves into ignoring all the content sitting out there.

So, GW splitting off the chapters was a good idea?

I'm sure therion who has been annoyingly correct about 9th so far said to expect the split chapters to become supplements

Dudeface wrote:


I'm sure therion who has been annoyingly correct about 9th so far said to expect the split chapters to become supplements

Is that someone posting over on N&R?

You know that Marines are getting new units courtesy of Indomitus, right?

And not just like "oh here's a new character" or something. We're looking to see at least five or six. Eradicators(Gravis armoured, toting Meltarifles), Outriders(Bikers), Assault Intercessors(50/50 shot that these are going to be an update to the Intercessors datasheet rather than a whole new unit. Incursors are Troops and have the Close Support badge that Assault Intercessors do before anyone tries to argue that angle), Judiciar(the 'executioner' guy), Bladeguard Veterans(storm shields+power swords/pistols), and the Bladeguard Ancient.

It's arguable whether the Captain or Lieutenant would be a new unit or a new datasheet. I'd put them in the same camp as the Assault Intercessors, a possible new datasheet.
And that doesn't even get into the Faith and Fury related stuff like the stratagems or the fancy shmancy Chaplains.

They're getting a new Codex. Anyone thinking it's "because they really can't keep the 8th edition books truly compatible" is deluding themselves into ignoring all the content sitting out there.

Yes. We are all aware they are getting new units. That only makes it a day that ends in "y". My point was that, being that we have been on a non-stop "all-marines-all-the-time" ride lately, anyone thinking 'Crons will be first rather than second is probably going to be disappointed.

My point in saying Marines will not only be the first book, but that they will also (IMO) demonstrate that the promise to keep everything compatible was spurious at best is based on the fact that, A. Marines in the last several cycles have always broken the established design strategy (I use the "S" word loosely here), and the fact that, I actually HAVE been paying attention to the content and it's plain as day that with everything they've currently shared, they cannot; 1. Make the game faster 2. Keep the rules compatible 3. fix the problems we have with 8th. It's a trianlge and you can only pick two sides. The side I'm seeing is that they will "fix some of the issues with 8th but the games will actually take LONGER, and 8th ed books will be "compatible" only in the very loosest sense and with an enormous helping of extra faq's.

I'm a marine player myself and even I am starting to get frustrated. Normally I'm out front saying "yeah, we get a ton of releases but Marines sell and GW needs money", but it's just gotten stupid lately. In three years we got TWO codexes, and half a million supplements. While some armies got nothing or next to nothing, and now they will, more than likely make them first again. Am I aware that marines get models in the new starter? Is it a day that ends in Y? Does a bear defecate in the woods?

Tycho wrote:

Just wait until they add "reroll all failed attrition rolls" to atsknf.

Don't be dumb. They would never add that. That's what the new "SUPER SWORD BRETHEREN OF THE SHIELD OF HIS ETERNAL LIGHT PRIMARiS Captain's 12" aura will do! Obviously! As long as everything is wholly within the 12" but more than 9" from a enemy unit, but less than 6" from any table edge when measured from the azimuth of the radius of said aura, and provided the Captain moved less than 6" but more than 1 in the previous turn, as long as he has more than 1 wound remaining, and assuming all units are at less than 100% but more than 40% of their original potential starting strength*" Obviously.

As far as codex order - I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's either going to be a simultaneaous release, or Necrons will come a few short weeks AFTER the Marines. That just seems to be how they're rolling these days.

* In this case, "Original Potential Starting Strength, or "OPSS" refers not to how many models a unit ACTUALLY started the game with, but rather how many models they COULD have started the game with as stated in "MAX OPSS in the unit's data slate. Obviously.

I'm sorry Tycho, but my dog works for James Workshop and I know for a FACT that that ability is on the luxos aeuternae fraetrius scutumius gladius magnus primaris legionaeris captain with master-crafted ridiculum est ingens bolt fullisador and relic squamous flame-gauntlet.

Dudeface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

So, GW splitting off the chapters was a good idea?

I'm sure therion who has been annoyingly correct about 9th so far said to expect the split chapters to become supplements

Interesting. I've been thinking that would be coming for awhile. There's just too much crossover and too few truly 'signature' units for each faction.

Space Wolves have their unique Dreadnoughts, their dropship/gunship, Wulfen, and the other stuff is all 'oldmarine' centric.
Dark Angels have unique force organizational stuff and Company Veterans--again, all centered around 'oldmarine' stuff.
Black Templars and Blood Angels are the two which really have the most 'signature' stuff...again, centered around 'oldmarines'!

But if Ultramarines can fit into a supplement with their 12 'unique datasheets'? I'm sure the rest can be worked in.

What the game really needed was to go from 8 marine codexes to 16.

Tycho wrote:

I'm a marine player myself and even I am starting to get frustrated. Normally I'm out front saying "yeah, we get a ton of releases but Marines sell and GW needs money", but it's just gotten stupid lately. In three years we got TWO codexes, and half a million supplements. While some armies got nothing or next to nothing, and now they will, more than likely make them first again. Am I aware that marines get models in the new starter? Is it a day that ends in Y? Does a bear defecate in the woods?

Now go back and look at how many of those supplements are Chapter specific.
If you're a Raven Guard player, you don't need Ultramarines/Iron Hands/Imperial Fists/White Scars/Salamanders. Just like they don't need yours.

The only real argument that can be made is that Faith and Fury is necessary, and maybe Vigilus Defiant if you want to run Specialist Detachments...but even that has Chapter specific stuff in it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
What the game really needed was to go from 8 marine codexes to 16.

Personally, all for anything that cuts down on actual codex numbers. Going from BA, DA, SW, DW, GK, SM to SM with supplements for UM, RG, IH, IF, BT, DA, BA, SW, WS, and Salamanders, DW, GK is an improvement.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I'm sure therion who has been annoyingly correct about 9th so far said to expect the split chapters to become supplements

Is that someone posting over on N&R?

I think he dropped it in the nercons thread in general actuay, somewhere in the last few pages.

 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.

The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!

the_scotsman wrote:
What the game really needed was to go from 8 marine codexes to 16.

With the new App coming out they might be doing that to sell app codices "Here's all your SW's rules in 1 spot for $9 but no other marines rules. Oh you wanted UW? Another $9, hey you want to try Salamanders too? that'll be $9, hmm BT is the new meta b.c of point changes, well that's $9"

Catulle wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.

The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!

What's giving the +1 to hit?

I'm not touching that second part with a barge pole.

Now go back and look at how many of those supplements are Chapter specific.
If you're a Raven Guard player, you don't need Ultramarines/Iron Hands/Imperial Fists/White Scars/Salamanders. Just like they don't need yours.

The only real argument that can be made is that Faith and Fury is necessary, and maybe Vigilus Defiant if you want to run Specialist Detachments...but even that has Chapter specific stuff in it!

No. Those all still rely on the main book and were, in some way represented in the original book. Loyalist marines do not need that many releases in so short a time span when armies like Dark Eldar have only LOST unit entries for quite some time now. Personally, I kind of do like some of the Marine supplements. I just don't think we need to have so many marine releases to the point that other armies are completely falling by the wayside. We will, as long as they continue to sell, almost always have more marine releases than anything else, which is fine because they're the money maker, but it's gotten too much imo, and I think the game will start to really suffer from it if they don't get a better handle on it soon.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New Moral rules

More dice rolls. exactly what 40k needed !

That was my first thought as well.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New Moral rules

More dice rolls. exactly what 40k needed !

That was my first thought as well.

Far less than what was removed from overwatch with hit rolls, rerolls, wound rolls, rerolls, saves, fnp, and damage. It seems like it will be pretty trivial most of the time.

Ice_can wrote:

Catulle wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.

The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!

What's giving the +1 to hit?

I'm not touching that second part with a barge pole.

Stratagem. It's in the WarComm article, with glee