Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions

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**chaos0xomega**

One of the books also implies that what the two lost legions did was far worse than Horus betrayal or the civil war, etc. and that had those two legions not been destroyed then the Imperium would have fallen long before the Heresy ever happened.

**pm713**

What that could actually be is beyond me.

**Argive**

I hope they never write them into existance. Lets have something left for imagination.

**chaos0xomega**

pm713 wrote:
What that could actually be is beyond me.

likewise.

**Aash**

I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.

If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!

**pm713**

Aash wrote:
I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.

If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!

That really confused me because it seems blatantly untrue. For example the Salamanders Legion failed to apprehend the Traitor Legions but that's still much better than the Word Bearers joining the Traitors. (I know they were technically already traitors but that's when they openly turned).

**Slipspace**

The original purpose of the 2 missing Legions was to add a bit of mystery to the setting. That's now been all but destroyed by the 2,365,228 Horus Heresy novels and short stories but it's good to see this mystery remains and probably always will.

It's not quite a complete mystery, however. It's very heavily implied that the Space Wolves destroyed one of the lost Legions and Sanguinius does mention mutation as a reason for one of them being lost/destroyed. Whether it's the same Legion that was mutated and the Wolves destroyed is unknown. Quite why this has to remain a secret isn't really explained either.

From a more practical point of view, I struggle to see what GW could reveal that would be satisfying at this point. If they did attempt to delve into the history of the II and XI it would likely be a lot more disappointing than leaving it a mystery. Given what Horus did it would also likely be very difficult to come up with something worse than killing trillions and falling to Chaos.

**BaconCatBug**

I remember when the Horus Heresy was shrouded in Myth and Legend, and left vague by choice.

It was superior then. Now we have details, we can pick out the stupid and illogical details that ruin the story.

They already half ruined the mystique of the missing Legions by basically all-but-admitting Russ culled them on order of the Emperor.

**mrFickle**

Some ideas

1) one of the primarchs was found and raised by xenos that the emperor demanded be exterminated and the primarch used his legion to try and defend the xenos

2) one of them had a gentle upbringing and was forced to be a military commander despite being repulsed by violence

3) one of them was pretending to be the actual emperor when reaching human planets in the crusade and was viewed as a usurper

4) they ascended to god hood and became gork and mork

**chaos0xomega**

BaconCatBug wrote:
I remember when the Horus Heresy was shrouded in Myth and Legend, and left vague by choice.

It was superior then. Now we have details, we can pick out the stupid and illogical details that ruin the story.

They already half ruined the mystique of the missing Legions by basically all-but-admitting Russ culled them on order of the Emperor.

See, I think its a bell-curve. I think the fluff we had "back then" was too little. I think what we have now is far far too much. I think you could probably cut about 2/3rds of the content and it would be much much better.

Theres definitely a lot of added depth as a result of the book series, including some additional mysteries and details that have greatly enhanced the setting, but I think there are some things which went a bit too far and, as you said, ruined the mystique in various ways.

**insaniak**

pm713 wrote:
Aash wrote:
I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.

If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!

That really confused me because it seems blatantly untrue. For example the Salamanders Legion failed to apprehend the Traitor Legions but that's still much better than the Word Bearers joining the Traitors. (I know they were technically already traitors but that's when they openly turned).

I might be misremembering (there are a lot of HH books, and some of them were a while ago now...) but I think that line was specifically in reference to betrayal. As in, the only thing worse than turning traitor is turning traitor but sucking at it. If you're going to attack your boss, at least make sure you win.

**IronSlug**

I'll go further and say GW should never have stated that this legions were destroyed before the heresy. Just let the II and XI numbers unallocated and never say anything about it except "no one knows".

**pm713**

insaniak wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Aash wrote:
I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.

If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!

That really confused me because it seems blatantly untrue. For example the Salamanders Legion failed to apprehend the Traitor Legions but that's still much better than the Word Bearers joining the Traitors. (I know they were technically already traitors but that's when they openly turned).

I might be misremembering (there are a lot of HH books, and some of them were a while ago now...) but I think that line was specifically in reference to betrayal. As in, the only thing worse than turning traitor is turning traitor but sucking at it. If you're going to attack your boss, at least make sure you win.

Ahhh so he's mad because they rebelled AND sucked at it rather than the Horusians who rebelled and did well.

**mrFickle**

The Horus Heresy should have been written across three trilogies of books, or something like that.

1. Crusade to corruption
2. Heresy (finishing before the attack on the sol system or terra)
3. Final conflict, aftermath and set the scene for the next 10k years.

Then quality and consistency could have been controlled and some characters wouldn’t have go their time in the spot light but who cares. Once the story had been completed from start to end more stories could have been written.

3-4 primarchs On each side should have been the key characters Plus the emperor.

As it is the key bits of information that make the core story line are spread across so many books that I don’t want to read them all.

I got so far in the series hit a crap book and never went back. And not sure if I will miss something I’d have really enjoyed if I skip a few books. I might however try opposing through using audio books.

**Pacific**

Have an interesting story (should note that this is absolutely not official!) however might be the closest we ever get. Many years ago, late 00's, the Great Crusade forum (sadly RIP) was run by Laurie Goulding, who went on to work for BL. At the time he didn't but I think was trying to get his foot in the door and knew several of the BL authors. The forum ran a Great Crusade-era event called the Assault on Gedren Prime. Laurie had asked Graham McNeil to write some of the background for the event, which was super awesome, and one of the elements of the story was that a lost legion featured (basically one dude had turned up with his own marine chapter which didn't really fit in with everyone's Pre-Heresy forces so they became the 11th Legion!

)

Apparently the 11th Legion Primarch is Malibron

The event was to do with the Crusade conquering a lost human world that had impressive cloning technology. Basically in the final battle of the event (a combined, multi-table affair featuring White Scars, World Eaters, Space Wolves, Blood Angels) the 11th Legion capital ship got destroyed in orbit by Mechanicum allies of the Gedrenites, a good portion of the Legion destroyed along with it (there were bits of the ship landing on the surface during the game). Malibron survived and responded by using exterminatus on one of the Gedren worlds (they had already surrendered) and then stole the cloning tech that was being held under guard by the Blood Angels, killing a bunch of them as he did so. He was apprehended along with the remains of his Legion and ordered back to Terra in chains, meanwhile Corax took hold of the cloning tech..

So there we go!

We did get told some of the event might get written into a future BL story but not I don't think that ever happened!
There is a link here to my old blog if anyone wants to read:
http://eatersofworlds.blogspot.com/2009/11/battle-report-assault-on-gedren-prime.html

But no I don't think there will ever be anything official and I think it should remain so...

Lotus Corgi wrote:
Way back in the late 90’s our group theorized that Sigmar was one of the most Primarchs. There were even little Easter eggs left in supplements to encourage the idea. This was before the HH series, when Primarchs where mysterious and mythic brings. This Theory was supposedly officially debunked by GW.
I stumbled upon this video a while back, this guy does a great job with the idea, bringing it in the modern 40k and AoS era.

https://youtu.be/ApmVcV0a2wI

Yup there used to be a fair bit of cross-over between WHFB and 40k. Chaos Warriors with bolt guns, things like that. Also that the coming of Sigmar was heralded by a comet (baby Sigmar arriving in his gestation podule!)

**locarno24**

One thing that came up in one HH short story (Chamber at the end of memory) is the fact no-one knows what happened except the Emperor and Malcador aside from vague scraps of memory.

Have you ever wondered why none speak of them?' the Sigillite replied. 'Of course, there is the censure over all who know of the lost never to talk openly of their existence. Still, in the absence of fact all men will speculate. But you do not. The primarchs never speak of their lost kinsmen in anything but the vaguest of terms. Have you ever wondered why that is?'

'As you said, we are forbidden to do so.'

'Even when you are beyond your father's sight? Even when no one would be aware of such a discussion? Ask yourself why your thoughts always slip over recall of the lost and pass by.' Malcador bowed his head. 'What were they called, Rogal?' The Sigillite seemed almost sorrowful as he asked him. 'Your vanished brethren. Tell me their names and their titles.'

Dorn tried to grasp that vague recollection, tried to frame the questions that gnawed at him, but once more his perfect eidetic recall failed him. He could only see the phantoms of those moments. Holding on to them was like trying to capture smoke between his fingers.

'Their names were…' his mighty voice faltered. His brow creased in frustration. 'They were…'

To his horror, Dorn realised that he did not know. The awareness was there; he could almost see the shape of the knowledge out on the far horizon of his thoughts. But it retreated from his every effort to see it clearly. Each time he attempted to frame a memory of the lost, it was like fighting a tidal wave. Everything else is clear, but they are ghosts in my mind.

The Imperial Fist was experiencing an impossibility. Every known instant of his life was open to him, as if they were pages of a great book.

But not those moments.

'Something has been done to me.' The beginnings of a new fury built in his chest, boiling at the realisation of such an affront. 'You are behind this!' Dorn whirled, drawing his chainblade in a glittering arc of lethal metal, bringing it to aim at Malcador's wizened, cloak-wreathed form. 'You shrouded my memories! You invaded my mind… For that I should cut you down!'

The Sigillite showed no reaction to the threat. 'Not just yours. Guilliman's, and the others who met them.' He let his words bed in. 'It is extremely difficult to extract a reminiscence,' Malcador went on. 'Even in an ordinary human. In a brain as complex and perfectly engineered as that of a primarch, the task becomes herculean. Imagine a tree in the earth, rising from a web of roots.

How would one remove that without disturbing a single atom of the soil? Memory cannot be cut and patched like a mnemonic spool. It exists as a holographic thing, in multiple dimensions. But it can be adjusted.'

'My father allowed that?' Dorn's sword did not waver.

'He did not stop you.'

'Stop me?' The primarch's eyes narrowed.

Malcador slowly moved back, out of the ornate sword's killing arc. 'The… loss of the Second and the Eleventh was such a wound upon us, and it threatened the ideals at the heart of the Great Crusade. It would have ruined all that we had built in the drive to reunite humanity, and drive off our enemies. Steps had to be taken.' He met Dorn's hard gaze. 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.'

'You robbed them of their memories.'

'I granted them a mercy!' Malcador replied, his tone wounded. 'A second chance!'

'What mercy is there in a lie?' Dorn thundered.

'Ask yourself!' The Sigillite aimed the burning head of his staff in the primarch's direction. 'You wish to know the truth, Rogal? It is this - what I shrouded in you was done by your command! You told me to do it. You and Roboute conceived of the scheme and granted me permission!'

Malcador briefly restores Dorn's memory - we don't see what it is, of course - and Dorn, now remembering, agrees that it was the right course of action.

**mrFickle**

“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase

If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?

**BaconCatBug**

mrFickle wrote:
“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase

If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?

I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.

**mrFickle**

BaconCatBug wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase

If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.

Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.

If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc

For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing

**beast_gts**

mrFickle wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase

If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.

Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.

If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc

For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing

Or their geenseed was deliberately damaged / destroyed when (if) they joined the Ultras, or they all used the generic pre-primarch geenseed that all Legions used in the beginning...

One of the White Scars novels (Scars?) has a marine who was originally meant to be joining the Sons of Horus but was re-assigned to the White Scars at the last minute.

**Fifty**

This conversation has split into two halves, with one part of the conversation being an out-of game discussion with bunch of people asserting that certain things happened and certain times and decsisions were made in a conscious way and others having a semi-in game perspective chat about possible fluff explanations fitting the modern writing.

I have next to me WD99, the original Adeptus Titanicus rulebook, Slaves to Darkness and the original Space Marine rulebook. Rogue Trader is downstairs somewhere, but not relevent to my point...

Things developed and changed, and not everything was written by the same person and therefore not at the same stage of development. I'm quite sure that even individuals made changes, backtracked, retconned and sidestepped, but the company certainly did.

Here is a fascinating little bit of writing from WD99, a preview of Slaves to Darkness. I am not sure if this is the very first mention of the "Treacher Legions" as I have not done an exhaustive search through previous White Dwarfs, but it is certainly an incredibly early example. Even from this up to Slaves to Darkness' final publication, there were VAST changes, and Adepticus Titanicus and Space Marine were both being developed at this time too, so there must have been huge amounts of overlap and contradiction built into the fluff. One of my favourite little nuggets is that huge numbers of people claim that it was Ollanius Pius was the Emperor's original saviour, not the lone Terminator. In fact, the story upon Horus' Battle Barge was published before the Ollanius Pius fluff, a fact that I have demonstrated previously.

Ultimately, GW employees have stated that two legions were left "uncrafted" for players ot create their own legions. At the time, it was at least implied that those legions did fight in the Horus Heresy, just that those records are completely lost.

Anyway, enjoy the lovely "On the Boil" from WD April 2020.

**mrFickle**

beast_gts wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase

If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.

Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.

If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc

For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing

Or their geenseed was deliberately damaged / destroyed when (if) they joined the Ultras, or they all used the generic pre-primarch geenseed that all Legions used in the beginning...

One of the White Scars novels (Scars?) has a marine who was originally meant to be joining the Sons of Horus but was re-assigned to the White Scars at the last minute.

Generic geenseed? I have never heard of this....?

**pm713**

IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

beast_gts wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase

If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.

Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.

If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc

For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing

Or their geenseed was deliberately damaged / destroyed when (if) they joined the Ultras, or they all used the generic pre-primarch geenseed that all Legions used in the beginning...

One of the White Scars novels (Scars?) has a marine who was originally meant to be joining the Sons of Horus but was re-assigned to the White Scars at the last minute.

He was reassigned Pre-Implantation. They were doing bulk initial training before being sent off to their Legion and the Trainees had an idea of where they were supposed to be going based on where they were recruited from and all that. But the Scars needed bodies cause they were next to be mobilized on a large scale.

**A.T.**

Fictional wrote:
Yea, I never got that one. The "master tome", aka the Rogue Trader book, is quite clear in that there are 1000 chapters, yet they need to keep 2 founding legions "spare" so you can make your own?

It was in part due to the whole roman legion influence - the missing chapters mirrored the legions lost in the battle of teutoburg forest.

In terms of names, one author listed 'Rubinek' as the Primarch of the Iron Hearts chapter, ("Hell in a Bottle" by Simon Jowett, part of "Into the Maelstrom" ). Not further supported by GW.

Andy Chambers Valedictors were also once listed as a first founding chapter but later retconned

**mrFickle**

On this topic I often see the point raise that GW created the 2 missing leaf ions so you could play your own custom legion, but that doesn’t work in the modern 40k. They don’t have any purpose except to add some intrigue to the story. One day GW will reveal the truth and no one will like it

**Shinji**

Psionara wrote:

Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.

Thoughts?

I think this is the one piece of the narrative that can remain ambiguous. Even while Guilliman or one of the chaos guys could shed light on the subject the mystery is not central to either the heresy or any of the other story lines. The fans will be better served if this is left unanswered.

Knowing GW though they will eventually milk it for every $$$ they can sooner or later.

**A.T.**

mrFickle wrote:
One day GW will reveal the truth and no one will like it

I always imagined these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions.

Of course - I never imagined that the Horus Heresy would even emerge from a mythic past (it was ten thousand years ago after all!) so I fondly imagined we had many thousand of years in which we could create diverse and colourful histories. In fact, the Horus Heresy idea was picked up and became a strong theme for the 'epic' game and later for 40K in other ways - but it was also meant to be mysterious and 'beyond knowing' as I conceived it.

-Rick Priestley,
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9z42fy/qa_with_rick_priestley_part_2_the_lore_of/

**beast_gts**

pm713 wrote:
IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.

Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.

GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...

**pm713**

beast_gts wrote:
pm713 wrote:
IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.

Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.

GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...

How so?