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2020/07/02 17:19:55
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
2020/07/02 17:55:05
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Wat. Enough with the perpetuals and other rubbish.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/07/02 18:37:43
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Wat. Enough with the perpetuals and other rubbish.
While you can't believe the visions Chaos will give you in the HH Horus himself was the one who facilitated Chaos scattering the Primarchs. I have a hazy memory of the II and XI Primarchs being mentioned in that book too. Didn't Horus mention something about bloodshed being avoided if he just killed the embryonic Primarchs then?
KBK
2020/07/02 19:17:16
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Wait where’s this from????
2020/07/02 19:43:08
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Not trying to plug or anything but it directly references the topic of the thread. An interview Thorpe did with MWG recently so some might find this a worthy listen.
So let me get this straight??? There is a black Library book that confirms, as a fact, that it not the forces of chaos that scattered the primarchs but a one of the scientists that helped create them?
I mean this is a dramatic shift in cannon as the scattering of primarchs is referenced quite heavily in codexes etc. Oh and it sucks
2020/07/03 12:53:08
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
Aash wrote: So is Saturnine available, when I looked for it I saw the release a date as late July (23rd I think?)
The Collectors / Special edition came out at the start of the year (Feb/March?) but it seems to have disappeared from the BL site.
mrFickle wrote: So let me get this straight??? There is a black Library book that confirms, as a fact, that it not the forces of chaos that scattered the primarchs but a one of the scientists that helped create them?
I mean this is a dramatic shift in cannon as the scattering of primarchs is referenced quite heavily in codexes etc. Oh and it sucks
The character is telling the story in-universe:
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:‘The primarchs,’ John whispered. ‘The primarchs,’ she said, with a small nod. ‘They’re not actual Perpetuate, in any biological sense. They’re the artificial equivalents of the Perpetuals, functionally immortal beings born from His blood and power and vigour, coded to accelerate His programme even faster. They were designed to live long enough to see His plan through to the end, and not die away so quickly, the way humans did, and they were indoctrinated from birth to follow His word, and not have opinions of their own, like naturally occurring Perpetuals. They were made to service His dream. He took what nature had wrought in the Perpetuals, and He built His own pathologised version. And through them, their genetic lines, the Legions.’ ‘He didn’t do that alone.’ Erda was silent for a moment. Outside, the desert air sighed, and the neck bells of livestock clunked. ‘He did not,’ she said. ‘I was still with Him then, one of the last few. Me, my colleague Astarte, a few others. I had misgivings, we all did, but He was very convincing. Compelling. And by then, He had become more powerful than ever. He needed a geneticist to work with Him, and that was my art. And He needed a biological source. A gene-stock rare enough to mix with His own. A Perpetual.’ ‘You.’ ‘Me. I was the other source. A genetic donor. He is the Father of Mankind. I am the surrogate mother. And the clinician. And the midwife. We made twenty fine sons. But He allowed me no influence. I was just a biological instrument. And once they were born, I began to properly understand the future He had prepared for them. The bitter destiny. The aggressively rapid and unnaturally savage evolutionary jump-start He was driving towards. No good ever comes of coercing nature, John. Through His sons, He would force the human race into the future, force it into submission, and defy the warp to do it. He had built artificial Perpetual-analogues and weaponised them, ready to resist the unbending cosmos. He was planning a crusade to retake the stars. To claim back in a bloody century or two what had taken millennia to lose in the first place. That was when I stepped away too. Astarte stayed, and finished the work on the Legion gene-build. But I left. I was heartbroken and bereft, but I stepped away.’ ‘No, not quite,’ said John. ‘This part I know. Eldrad told me. You didn’t just step away, Erda. You tried to stop Him.’ ‘I tried to save my sons.’ ‘You scattered them.’ She sat forward, and stared at the ground, her hands across her mouth. ‘I did. I took them from Him. I cast them onto the tides to spare them from His terrible ambition.’ ‘gak,’ John murmured. ‘What did He do?’ ‘Raged, for a long while. I was gone by then. I hid for a long time. But He never tried to find me. I always thought that odd. I always expected His vengeance, for He could be vindictive, but it never came. Eventually, I came here, a place I’d always loved. I was born not far from here. I withdrew from the world, and He never came looking for me.’ She glanced at him, and smiled sadly. ‘Because, I suppose, it was academic by then. He had moved on, fired and driven, as always. He sent the Astartes on their crusade anyway. A programme of reconquest, as He had always planned, but in truth it was just an excuse to find His sons. And His scattered sons were found again, of course, and returned to His side. I had failed. My efforts merely delayed His programme. I tried, John, but I did not stop Him.’
From this, the "twenty fine sons" bit bugs me - did she not notice Alpharius / Omegon, did she not want to tell John about them, or something else?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 13:32:38
2020/07/03 14:11:07
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: Well that just makes no sense because they blatantly don't. Example A being Magnus who was told not to do something and immediately did it.
Amar Astarte wasn't that good - Ezekiel Sedayne had to fix her work on the Black Carapace, for example. I'm not surprised that things she worked on had 'bugs'.
2020/07/03 14:49:05
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote:Well that just makes no sense because they blatantly don't. Example A being Magnus who was told not to do something and immediately did it.
That very well could be either a case of the Emperor and Erda being mistaken on just how much free will the Primarchs had (another box ticked in the 'Emperor vastly overestimates his abilities'), or a direct result of the Primarchs being scattered, and their new upbringings giving them far more freedom than they would have had had they not stayed.
They/them
2020/07/03 18:52:37
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote:Well that just makes no sense because they blatantly don't. Example A being Magnus who was told not to do something and immediately did it.
That very well could be either a case of the Emperor and Erda being mistaken on just how much free will the Primarchs had (another box ticked in the 'Emperor vastly overestimates his abilities'), or a direct result of the Primarchs being scattered, and their new upbringings giving them far more freedom than they would have had had they not stayed.
The first makes more sense to me. If it was a biological thing then they'd remain bound to him but nurture (or lack thereof) explains a lot of the Primarchs fairly well.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/07/03 23:33:16
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
There's also "The Last Council", which is mentioned further down that Reddit page.
I went through that thread, and it gave me a thought.
So it was Horus, Khan, and Alpharius of all Primarchs that went. Obviously Alpharius cared about them enough in some manner to want to do such a thing, and we don't know a lot about his history overall. Is our lack of information perhaps related to the fact he's connected to the lost two a good amount and the reconstructed memories kinda show we also don't know a lot about him either? I dunno just a thought.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/07/04 11:22:54
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: Why is everyone in the Imperium bad at maths? There are 21 Primarchs.
Is that saying Perpetuals are biologically forced to follow the Emperor? Because that would manage to be dumber than they already are.
We don’t know that omegon was in the pod with alpharius. We don’t know much about his past at all. Something may have happened in the warp to spilt the souls across 2 bodies or even after he was found
Automatically Appended Next Post: At this rate GW will eventually tell the story of the 2 missing primarchs. I have a feeling now that there was some sort of perpetual rebellion against the emperor and some how they had their own options and sixes against the emperor. I also assume all other perpetual shave been killed of, but like the hunting down of the Jedi by Darth Vader.
It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 11:25:04
2020/07/04 11:47:34
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
2020/07/04 11:52:10
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: Why is everyone in the Imperium bad at maths? There are 21 Primarchs.
Is that saying Perpetuals are biologically forced to follow the Emperor? Because that would manage to be dumber than they already are.
We don’t know that omegon was in the pod with alpharius. We don’t know much about his past at all. Something may have happened in the warp to spilt the souls across 2 bodies or even after he was found
In one of the HH novels when Horus is looking back at the pods it mentions Alpharius and Omegon were in the same pod which wasn't designed for 2 primachs.
KBK
2020/07/04 15:44:31
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
Sounds like rose coloured glasses to me. He is not clever beyond genius at all.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/07/04 15:56:19
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
pm713 wrote: Why is everyone in the Imperium bad at maths? There are 21 Primarchs.
Is that saying Perpetuals are biologically forced to follow the Emperor? Because that would manage to be dumber than they already are.
We don’t know that omegon was in the pod with alpharius. We don’t know much about his past at all. Something may have happened in the warp to spilt the souls across 2 bodies or even after he was found
Automatically Appended Next Post: At this rate GW will eventually tell the story of the 2 missing primarchs. I have a feeling now that there was some sort of perpetual rebellion against the emperor and some how they had their own options and sixes against the emperor. I also assume all other perpetual shave been killed of, but like the hunting down of the Jedi by Darth Vader.
It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
That doesn't really follow. He got something specific on Molech relating to the creation of the primarchs, it doesn't mean he didn't have the absurdly powerful psychic abilities that, canonically, he was born (rebirthed) with.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/04 17:31:47
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
Does all this reveal where the other perpetuals came from? The number of perpetuals popping up in stories feels like the mass shaman scuicide/rebirth will be retconned out because he may aswell just come from where the rest of the perpetuals came from, genetic anomaly, but has more power than the rest
2020/07/04 18:04:08
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
Sounds like rose coloured glasses to me. He is not clever beyond genius at all.
From the context that's been posted so far, this character doesn't sound like someone with cause to own such glasses.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/07/04 18:05:28
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: Does all this reveal where the other perpetuals came from? The number of perpetuals popping up in stories feels like the mass shaman scuicide/rebirth will be retconned out because he may aswell just come from where the rest of the perpetuals came from, genetic anomaly, but has more power than the rest
Erda thinks they're the next evolution of humanity - Homo Superior (like the X-Men).
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
Sounds like rose coloured glasses to me. He is not clever beyond genius at all.
From the context that's been posted so far, this character doesn't sound like someone with cause to own such glasses.
When someone beats you, it's often easier to remember them as being superior rather than you screwed up (or they got lucky).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 18:09:56
2020/07/04 22:48:38
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: Does all this reveal where the other perpetuals came from? The number of perpetuals popping up in stories feels like the mass shaman scuicide/rebirth will be retconned out because he may aswell just come from where the rest of the perpetuals came from, genetic anomaly, but has more power than the rest
They seem to pop up randomly across generations - one of them was an Argonaut (Ol Pearson IIRC) in classical Greece while others seem to be contemporary with the Great Crusade (IIRC Grammaticus met the Emperor during unification in his first life).
If by ‘shamans’ you now read ‘perpetuals’ it’s possible the Emperor was still formed from a suicide pact of all the existing perpetuals in 8,000 BC as per old fluff, which would explain why he’s so much more powerful than the rest, but with the currently existing perpetuals simply being ones who have been born since.
2020/07/05 08:46:02
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Presumably the geneseed has to match the implanted organs. Otherwise the crusade-era Imperium could simply have used Horus’ geneseed (the first primarch found) for every legion. So that raises the interesting problem that if marines from the missing legions were distributed among the eighteen before the heresy, the legions apothecaries must have been made aware there was something unusual about them. If only we could ask our friend Fabius Bile...
2020/07/05 12:39:15
Subject: Someone Has to Know About the Lost Primarchs/Legions
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Presumably the geneseed has to match the implanted organs. Otherwise the crusade-era Imperium could simply have used Horus’ geneseed (the first primarch found) for every legion. So that raises the interesting problem that if marines from the missing legions were distributed among the eighteen before the heresy, the legions apothecaries must have been made aware there was something unusual about them. If only we could ask our friend Fabius Bile...
At least five Legions have different geneseeds (Alpha Legion, Salamander, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard) so it's not unreasonable they'd all be different in some way.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
