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Now models can only fight in close combat if within engagement range (1"), or if within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" of the enemy. This is a massive nerf to the old rule, which was within 1" of a model within 1". No more fighting in three ranks with 25mm models, and to fight in two ranks, you have to have the first rank within 1/2" of the enemy unit.



Anyone have any clues on how this makes any sort of sense? I don't think I never encountered a single person in 8th who thought it was too easy for models to get to fight in combat.

At first glance, it seems like is the death knell for large combat units - the coherency changes make it very hard to utilize a large unit's model count to wrap, and this change makes it quite a bit harder to utilize your model count to actually fight.

It's probably just to remove that subtle advantage of the 25mm bases, and limit fighting to two ranks.

32mm bases could also fight in 4 ranks before, but they had to be in staggered formation. Now I would guess its 2 ranks maximum, but it might be worth looking into possible staggered formations to see what can be done with half an inch...

Good to see that 9th is staying the course when it comes to gakking on melee and promoting MSU over all.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Now models can only fight in close combat if within engagement range (1"), or if within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" of the enemy. This is a massive nerf to the old rule, which was within 1" of a model within 1". No more fighting in three ranks with 25mm models, and to fight in two ranks, you have to have the first rank within 1/2" of the enemy unit.

Spoiler:

Anyone have any clues on how this makes any sort of sense? I don't think I never encountered a single person in 8th who thought it was too easy for models to get to fight in combat.

At first glance, it seems like is the death knell for large combat units - the coherency changes make it very hard to utilize a large unit's model count to wrap, and this change makes it quite a bit harder to utilize your model count to actually fight.

Unless you're making a very close charge, yeah, I think large combat units are going to struggle to get their models in...

It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

Techniqually, you just have to be 1/2" of another model who is within 1/2".

Models with bigger bases get a bigger initial footprint. Just put your champion models on a base a bit larger than normal (make it scenic) and you can get more models into CC.

That's called modelling for advantage and cheating. As much as I hate what I'm seeing of 9th so far I'm not going to cheat against my friends just because I disagree with GW.

I'm not even clear what problem this is supposed to solve.

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

This is 40K Tournament Edition.

MSUs galore, tons of nerfs to horde armies that take forever to do anything during their turns, smaller tables, shorter set game time - everything tournament players would want.

I just don't get the possible rationale for this. Has anyone ever heard of anyone complain during 8th that too many models were able to fight in close combat? I've never heard it even once.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

This is 40K Tournament Edition.

MSUs galore, tons of nerfs to horde armies that take forever to do anything during their turns, smaller tables, shorter set game time - everything tournament players would want.

Hordes don't even take up the most time! It's marines and their infinite rerolls!

Woo-hoo! I'm glad they've seen this issue and are adressing it

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

I was. Because they suck to play against. Like I want to deal with a 45 minute movement phase every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

This is 40K Tournament Edition.

MSUs galore, tons of nerfs to horde armies that take forever to do anything during their turns, smaller tables, shorter set game time - everything tournament players would want.

Hordes don't even take up the most time! It's marines and their infinite rerolls!

Marines rerolls take a good long time sure, but don't foget it's Orkz fault that GW events only ran 1750 after that dude won the whole event because they never made it to round 3.

ERJAK wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

I was. Because they suck to play against. Like I want to deal with a 45 minute movement phase every turn.

And Heaven's forbid I play something I find fun, but no can't have people with half an hour of shooting phase feeling bored because I take slightly longer for my movement phase. As has been pointed out time and again, slow players are going to be slow, hordes as such do not need to play slow if the player controlling them knows what he is doing. Of course that was before these new coherency rules, morale rules and loads of other stuff that is going too slow the game down.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

This is 40K Tournament Edition.

MSUs galore, tons of nerfs to horde armies that take forever to do anything during their turns, smaller tables, shorter set game time - everything tournament players would want.

While I personally don't miss horde armies, and would like quicker tighter games, that's not true of all or even most tournament players.

We're all playing the same game here, with every single one of us having very different things we like and dislike most about it. I don't know how people like you can honestly pretend like 'Tournament players' is some monolithic group thinking entity when honestly they're just...us. The same people that post here every day, both the ones who hate this type of thing and love it, are 'tournament players'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Castozor wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

I was. Because they suck to play against. Like I want to deal with a 45 minute movement phase every turn.

And Heaven's forbid I play something I find fun, but no can't have people with half an hour of shooting phase feeling bored because I take slightly longer for my movement phase. As has been pointed out time and again, slow players are going to be slow, hordes as such do not need to play slow if the player controlling them knows what he is doing. Of course that was before these new coherency rules, morale rules and loads of other stuff that is going too slow the game down.

You also have a half an hour shooting phase. And a 45 minute combat phase.

I don't necessarily support these changes, I'm just saying that I was actually complaining about hordes because playing against them was piss. You asked if anyone was complaining about them, I answered. It doesn't mean I like the new coherency rules, or understand what the point of blast was supposed to be.

Too be fair I did point out some people complained about them playing slowly. Not something I agree with mind, but I did consider it. Also maybe you play different opponents than I do but when I played as horde Orks or against Nid hordes shooting phase tended to be very light. Combat/Charge granted yes but that's GW's fault for making those phases very complex compared to all others.

ERJAK wrote:
We're all playing the same game here, with every single one of us having very different things we like and dislike most about it. I don't know how people like you can honestly pretend like 'Tournament players' is some monolithic group thinking entity when honestly they're just...us. The same people that post here every day, both the ones who hate this type of thing and love it, are 'tournament players'.

Meanwhile, Chapter Approved has been replaced by a Grand Tournament Mission Pack.

As I said, we now have Warhammer 40,000: Tournament Edition.

People have definitely complained about hordes. I've just never once heard anyone say "it's so unfair that you can fight with guys within 1" and within 1" of 1"! too many models from your unit are allowed to fight!" The stuff people complain about is the amount of time they take, not the fact that they are allowed to fight in melee if they make it there.

yukishiro1 wrote:
People have definitely complained about hordes. I've just never once heard anyone say "it's so unfair that you can fight with guys within 1" and within 1" of 1"! too many models from your unit are allowed to fight!" The stuff people complain about is the amount of time they take, not the fact that they are allowed to fight in melee if they make it there.

Maybe not at the tournament level, but there was enough gamey stuff happening at a more casual level that not adressing this would've been bad for the game with the other changes made.

Lammia wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
People have definitely complained about hordes. I've just never once heard anyone say "it's so unfair that you can fight with guys within 1" and within 1" of 1"! too many models from your unit are allowed to fight!" The stuff people complain about is the amount of time they take, not the fact that they are allowed to fight in melee if they make it there.

Maybe not at the tournament level, but there was enough gamey stuff happening at a more casual level that not adressing this would've been bad for the game with the other changes made.

Care to explain? I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel 4 rank fighting was bad and/or gamey. Especially since a load of other changes are already hosing big (melee) units by the looks of it. I know a friend of mine always found it cheesey for my Boyz and poxwalkers to be fighting in 4 ranks but I never won games because of that, my other units were doing that not my big blobs of otherwise useless troops.

You know what it does? It kills some issues arising from people still having models on old size bases. Most of my marines are still on the bases they came on, and those are 28mm.

Lammia wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
People have definitely complained about hordes. I've just never once heard anyone say "it's so unfair that you can fight with guys within 1" and within 1" of 1"! too many models from your unit are allowed to fight!" The stuff people complain about is the amount of time they take, not the fact that they are allowed to fight in melee if they make it there.

Maybe not at the tournament level, but there was enough gamey stuff happening at a more casual level that not adressing this would've been bad for the game with the other changes made.

Can you elaborate a little bit? What kind of "gamey" stuff happened?

ERJAK wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

I was. Because they suck to play against. Like I want to deal with a 45 minute movement phase every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
It makes no sense unless, like me, you are beginning to suspect GW and their play testing baboons wanted to completely kill of big horde units. Why, beats me, no one was complaining about big combat blobs before to my understanding, unless it was about them slowing the game down.

This is 40K Tournament Edition.

MSUs galore, tons of nerfs to horde armies that take forever to do anything during their turns, smaller tables, shorter set game time - everything tournament players would want.

Hordes don't even take up the most time! It's marines and their infinite rerolls!

Marines rerolls take a good long time sure, but don't foget it's Orkz fault that GW events only ran 1750 after that dude won the whole event because they never made it to round 3.

FWIW, I thought it was terribly clever of the Ork player to win via not playing.

it also makes conga lining less of a thing maybe ?

With this rule you need to have a more vertical front ranks than horizontal and just blob up 4 or 4 deep.

Not sure if this was needed or what it achieves. Apart from maybe it making no sense that a guy way in the back could get a hit in..

Congalines were already killed by the new coherency rules, this just nerfs 25 mm base hordes for no reason.It was not needed but apparently we are just not allowed to viably run hordes in 9th.

Castozor wrote:

Lammia wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
People have definitely complained about hordes. I've just never once heard anyone say "it's so unfair that you can fight with guys within 1" and within 1" of 1"! too many models from your unit are allowed to fight!" The stuff people complain about is the amount of time they take, not the fact that they are allowed to fight in melee if they make it there.

Maybe not at the tournament level, but there was enough gamey stuff happening at a more casual level that not adressing this would've been bad for the game with the other changes made.

Care to explain? I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel 4 rank fighting was bad and/or gamey. Especially since a load of other changes are already hosing big (melee) units by the looks of it. I know a friend of mine always found it cheesey for my Boyz and poxwalkers to be fighting in 4 ranks but I never won games because of that, my other units were doing that not my big blobs of otherwise useless troops.

It probably didn't singlehandedly win the game for you, but your opponent also had more ways to discourage/response to you doing that too.

It's also got to do with the RAI/RAW nature of what you're actually doing and maybe something to do with the units that exploit it well.

Could also just be me and the fact that I found Tri-pointing a lot more interesting exploitation of the rules than fighting 4 ranks deep.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I just don't get the possible rationale for this. Has anyone ever heard of anyone complain during 8th that too many models were able to fight in close combat? I've never heard it even once.

Nada. I don't even mind the 1/2" stuff though. It's the transport screwing that bugs me more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:


Marines rerolls take a good long time sure, but don't foget it's Orkz fault that GW events only ran 1750 after that dude won the whole event because they never made it to round 3.

Hmmm, well, I guess I am biased, because we moved to clocks pretty fast after that. Others who didn't probably experienced some agony so I can see the rules as an effort for GW to level that out without needing clocks. Melee weapons better be damn cheap though.

Combined with the new coherency rules, this is just annoying. I don't really play hordes, but I I feel for those who do. Plus, having to measure half inches is going to require I squint at the tape measure just a bit more.

I'm still mostly positive about 9th edition, but some of the more recent reveals have been like... the opposite of hype.

Maybe pile in moves will be increased to balance this out a bit?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Combined with the new coherency rules, this is just annoying. I don't really play hordes, but I I feel for those who do. Plus, having to measure half inches is going to require I squint at the tape measure just a bit more.

I'm still mostly positive about 9th edition, but some of the more recent reveals have been like... the opposite of hype.

Maybe pile in moves will be increased to balance this out a bit?

Nope. PIle in is 3", must be closer to closest enemy model.
If the model is already touching an enemy model, you explicitly can't move, but still count as having 'piled in.'

And a 'remember coherency' reminder.

Consolidate is identical to the above