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2020/07/02 19:36:10
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
yukishiro1 wrote: That's a bit of an odd hot-take. Painting is by far the cheapest part of the hobby. The paint to paint a whole army to the battle ready standard will cost you less than the cost of almost any kit GW sells these days.
The rich part is based on the model cost, the love to paint part is its own thing. Either way if you really want to paint well that does actually take a good deal of cash, proper set ups, brushes, paints, replacement when they dry out or go bad which happens more than would be ideal. The residuals of the hobby aspect aren't cheap and are outright overly expensive if you get the tools through GW. Have you looked up the price for clippers lately ? Ouch and that is just clippers.
Yeah but GW isn't requiring you to paint well, just to paint to a very basic standard. A can of spray paint, two additional colors, a wash, a texture paint, and a $1 paintbrush will get you there. No need to use GW paints either. A can of spray paint is $5 off amazon, two vallejo paints, a texture paint, and two bottles of army painter wash (assuming you have a big army, if not, one is fine) is another $15. So that's about $25 to paint your army to the standard GW wants. I.e. cheaper than practically every kit GW sells these days.
I don't think anyone who can afford to buy the kits is going to find the cost of paint a serious limiting factor. Time? Sure, maybe. But cost? Not really.
I'll say it again, the cost is the models, the time is the paint, time and skill that is. However the cost is still there as an additional drag for the paint as well. It won't break the bank of course but then it may, every nickel and dime adds up after all. As well not amazing painted actually takes away re sale value if you ever want to do that or feel you might in the future which could be a consideration for leaving the models primed or bare. Doesn't as much matter to me, I've said countless times I have painted stuff to run, I just disagree with the rule on its face and believe it sucks. Anything that is going to cause this much division at the end isn't good for the game, community or hobby at large.
I'd also add, while painted is good, it can be very intimidating for everyone to do that or feel you have to be fully painted before even playing. As some will hold even newbs to that standard and it will really sour them to their learning curve the game has, as well as heavy cost and time sunk into it if you do paint. However letting all come in, free of pressure has never made anyone I've known not wish to paint, if anything they push themselves to do it because they want to, not because the game spanks them to. That is a very large difference.
2020/07/02 19:38:05
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Blndmage wrote: To the folks who think I could be given a pass due to my disability.
In garagehammer groups, you'd be right.
At FLGS's? Literally had my vision used against me on a number of occasions, and when I called it out at the store? A slap on the wrist, and zero consequences. The digital local groups froze me out or told me to "play better".
The local community is competitive and tournament focused.
I've tried to find folks who I could play not at stores with, but I've become a Pariah now.
Being a disabled gamer isn't easy of as fun as you'd imagine.
Most gamers are...at least not consciously ablist, but it's a huuuge issue.
The problem with this is... that gaming circle probably drove away all the classy players you need to be playing with with their style of cut throat play. The players you need to be with have probably already broken away and gone underground to play in someone's garage :(
I doubt you are a pariah, I'm sure if you started to dig down into the problem you'll find that the proprietor allows that toxic environment to persist that is driving players away, or indoctrinating new players into that culture.
Not saying it is a good thing, but it certainly appears that it would be the problem you're facing. You don't deserve to face it, but definitely do not let that one group of jerks sour your perception of everyone... that's just one FLGS that has lost their way (especially on the F part), and have succumbed to an elitist circle that isn't going to be welcoming to ANYONE, much less a disabled person that requires a little more time and understanding to game with.
FWIW: You come to my house with a gray army on the table? I'll flip out a painted model for an unpainted model, or more likely... just suspend the darn rule. But we strive to make everyone we invite to our table feel welcomed, because it ain't about winning... it is about having a room of excellent people having a good time together. No amount of VP is going to help that. The game is secondary to the camaraderie of being with friends.
For tournaments? Where those 10 VP mean something (other than internet bragging points)? I'd enforce the standard the same across the board. If you expect me to come to a tournament with a competitive list so you can feel like you got my best game... then I can expect you to come with a fully painted army so I can feel like I got the most immersive experience despite getting walloped all day. Being a disabled army veteran... I'd like to be held to the same standard as everyone else, despite my shortcomings/issues. If we're in a garage playing over some beers? Sure, suspend the parts of the rules we don't want to play... but in an organized setting where people are competing? Establish the standard, and then enforce it evenly. This rule does nothing more than establish the standard so now it can be evenly enforced (because before now... it was awkwardly applied, at best).
2020/07/02 19:39:02
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
I'm sick of people having unpainted armies at events coming from the Warmachine community.
I haven't had a game with my Iron Hands since the codex dropped since I haven't finished painting them. When I started this hobby the local GW had a rule where you couldnt play games at events or vet's night if you didnt have the models painted. I love that GW went with this rule and I appreciate what they've been doing the past few years with this push of painting streams/community/direction they're going.
However I have two minor issues with it:
- If you're disabled/colorblind/cant move you should automatically get it
- If you're playing at your own home and not at an event
The 10 points should be a reward over the 100 base points, not included in the score if I'm reading that right.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 19:43:16
Blndmage wrote: Blind girl who played 3-5th, came back in 8th checking in here.
Hers pics of my army only the Sentry Pylon is recently done (my wife actually had to help me, as even this simple job became so frustratingly impossible I broke down in tears) the rest were done in 4th, when I had muuuuch better vision and motor skills.
(Posted links rather than pics to keep the thread from getting messed up)
https://imgur.com/a/HnXAJdm https://imgur.com/a/KI8PXzz
I've been following 9th with high hopes.
The 1/2" stuff will probably cause me to lose more than I hope.
The paining requirements, well, if blank bases are fine, then I'm ok, but if I base them, I'll literally lose models, I lost a whole squad of warriors at a pick up game in a random store while I wasnt used to going to.
As a disabled Warhammer player, not just my vision, but a few other issues that impact my play as well, I'm frustrated by this rule.
I was really liking 9th, this makes me...not like it.
I was super psyched for Crusdae, after reading it, I was really excited as it's what I've always been wanting.....but then I saw this rule in there..
There are lots of things about the game that make it hard for me, but I've always pushed through, found ways to manage, personal tricks that make it possible for me to play, but this feels like I'm just screwed. I know a few other disabled gamers. I'm the pest painter on the group, and for some, they physically can't do it, but have found ways to play regardless and enjoy the game. This is like a slap in the face.
"Get a friend to paint them" Why would a put all that work on my friends, most dont enjoy or care about 40k, it not a feasible thing.
"Pay to get them painted, you can afford to my models, so obviously you can get them painted" HAHAHAHAHA No. you think I can afford models! If it wasn't for eBay and charity from other gamers, as well as my 20yr old self being more able bodied and able to work, which I can't any more, I wouldn't even have a enough for a 500pnt army. Disabled people generally can't afford the prices GW charges, the second hand market isn't much better at times.
"If it's this hard for you, just stop playing" I've been told that my Dakka members in the past, with enough people supporting the person and this view that I did stop playing, as my local 40k community had the same attitude.
I don't think anybody will have a problem not honoring the rule in your case, or in a lot of cases (like new players). I honestly think this is a problem solved by not playing against ***holes.
WYSIWYG was, iirc an official rule in the past, and lots of people still proxied, etc, and the world didn't fall into chaos.
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/07/02 19:43:58
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Also-this won't affect big tournaments. They already have painting requirements. This is really only going to affect casual games-and not positively, it would seem to me.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/07/02 19:45:15
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Blndmage wrote: Blind girl who played 3-5th, came back in 8th checking in here.
Hers pics of my army only the Sentry Pylon is recently done (my wife actually had to help me, as even this simple job became so frustratingly impossible I broke down in tears) the rest were done in 4th, when I had muuuuch better vision and motor skills.
(Posted links rather than pics to keep the thread from getting messed up)
https://imgur.com/a/HnXAJdm https://imgur.com/a/KI8PXzz
I've been following 9th with high hopes.
The 1/2" stuff will probably cause me to lose more than I hope.
The paining requirements, well, if blank bases are fine, then I'm ok, but if I base them, I'll literally lose models, I lost a whole squad of warriors at a pick up game in a random store while I wasnt used to going to.
As a disabled Warhammer player, not just my vision, but a few other issues that impact my play as well, I'm frustrated by this rule.
I was really liking 9th, this makes me...not like it.
I was super psyched for Crusdae, after reading it, I was really excited as it's what I've always been wanting.....but then I saw this rule in there..
There are lots of things about the game that make it hard for me, but I've always pushed through, found ways to manage, personal tricks that make it possible for me to play, but this feels like I'm just screwed. I know a few other disabled gamers. I'm the pest painter on the group, and for some, they physically can't do it, but have found ways to play regardless and enjoy the game. This is like a slap in the face.
"Get a friend to paint them"
Why would a put all that work on my friends? Most dont enjoy or care about 40k, it not a feasible thing.
"Pay to get them painted, you can afford to my models, so obviously you can get them painted"
HAHAHAHAHA No. you think I can afford models! If it wasn't for eBay and charity from other gamers, as well as my 20yr old self being more able bodied and able to work, which I can't any more, I wouldn't even have a enough for a 500pnt army. Disabled people generally can't afford the prices GW charges, the second hand market isn't much better at times. I've been saving for something new for my Necrons since I started playing in the summer of 2018, that money has been used for groceries and rent. At best I saved $26ish to get my Sentry Pylons. If I were commingninto the hobby now, as an adult, I couldn't afford it, even if I saved up.
"If it's this hard for you, just stop playing"
I've been told that my Dakka members in the past, with enough people supporting the person and this view that I did stop playing, as my local 40k community had the same attitude.
The fact that anyone would tell you not to play when you fight so hard to is a shame. I completely feel for your situation and it isn't directly for you I argue my points on why this is a bad rule but it adds to my passion to say we as a community should shun a rule that makes anyone feel like they are being forced out, or gate kept. Yes we can make exceptions to the rules for people with disability or hardship but, and tell me if I'm wrong, we shouldn't have to make exception for it. The rules themselves shouldn't be set up in a way that we need to ignore core rules just to make sure others feel included and not pushed out due to no choice of their own.
It's a crap rule, it shouldn't be in there, has never been in there in 40k. If tournaments want to enforce paint standards, that is on them but it shouldn't be hard baked into each and every mission, period. It's not good, will only cause headaches and adds nothing but division when we should be bound together as a community.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 19:50:38
2020/07/02 19:46:29
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Why is this in the rules? If events want to mandate fully painted, they are entirely within their rights to do so, and I'd prefer they did. However this just feels like something that gets house ruled away in casual play.
2020/07/02 19:47:54
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
How does making sure my plasma guns are plasma gun and my chainswords are chainswords and my Space Marines are Space Marines change the game, in reference to dice rolls and saving throws?
It doesn't.
Don't you have a codex? An official assembled model is 100% clear about what it is and what specific weapons it carries.
An unassembled model will likely have no guns at all, and maybe only generic parts that makes impossible to say what unit it represent. A standard infantry dude? A heavy weapon specialist? A sargent? The warlord?
Painted and assembled models are exactly the same in terms of who is who, unassembled models aren't.
WYSIWYG is not a thing in 8th edition or 9th edition. So what a model has is irrelevant to what it might have on your list (if it even has anything at all). Assembling minis is a convention to play the game, not in the rules.
Similarly, painting is a convention, though they put this soft incentive into the rule in this case.
2020/07/02 19:48:47
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
I virtually never put an unpainted mini on the table even as a Guard player. I dilligently paint everything, generally don't have a big backlog of stuff to work on and find it fairly easy to get going on big projects so long as I have everything setup when I come home from work.
I'm not going to lie, it does affect the experience when I play against someone who doesn't take the effort to paint their stuff and it's certainly less fun that way.
But here's the thing.
This rule is divisive and utterly, totally moronic, to the point that I can't rationally understand why anyone would defend it.
Putting aside all of the obvious points to make that people are playing to enjoy the strategy behind the game as well as the hobby, the fact that people have busy schedules, low motivation and a litany of other things preventing them from painting which are reasonable and noone else's business....
If you're running a narrative event or something and require your playerbase to paint everything, I don't see an issue, people can play elsewhere and there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to create a private environment where people who particularly enjoy painting can play games.
But what GW have done here is give anyone not so much an excuse to, but an inclination to flip the bird to anyone who doesn't have painted models in any context and feel superior because of it. I take serious issue with that on a basic level of showing respect to others and if I saw someone demand the points in order to win I'd frankly take note to not play that person.
Whether it's in the rules or not, I'd sincerely hope people only pull this on people with a sense of humour and humility.
2020/07/02 19:52:09
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
Do you drive exactly the speed limit?
You don't just waive rules because you feel like. Either the rule is good or bad.
Also yes I do stick to the speed limit, only ever going 5 above at most. Granted I have a garbage Civic that can't go fast whatsoever so it is what it is.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/07/02 19:52:17
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
You shouldn't need to waive it though and the fact we already are having made decisions on when and if and why we ignore a core rule, the rule is broken before it's released.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hell the fact I'm agreeing with Slayer Fan on this should be some kind of indication this is bad. The fact our vision is aligning on this frightens me to the core of my dark soul.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 19:53:07
2020/07/02 19:54:46
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
Do you drive exactly the speed limit?
You don't just waive rules because you feel like. Either the rule is good or bad.
Also yes I do stick to the speed limit, only ever going 5 above at most. Granted I have a garbage Civic that can't go fast whatsoever so it is what it is.
No man, you either follow the speed limit exactly or you just have to get rid of it because you don't believe it. It's a bad rule.
I virtually never put an unpainted mini on the table even as a Guard player. I dilligently paint everything, generally don't have a big backlog of stuff to work on and find it fairly easy to get going on big projects so long as I have everything setup when I come home from work.
I'm not going to lie, it does affect the experience when I play against someone who doesn't take the effort to paint their stuff and it's certainly less fun that way.
But here's the thing.
This rule is divisive and utterly, totally moronic, to the point that I can't rationally understand why anyone would defend it.
Putting aside all of the obvious points to make that people are playing to enjoy the strategy behind the game as well as the hobby, the fact that people have busy schedules, low motivation and a litany of other things preventing them from painting which are reasonable and noone else's business....
If you're running a narrative event or something and require your playerbase to paint everything, I don't see an issue, people can play elsewhere and there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to create a private environment where people who particularly enjoy painting can play games.
But what GW have done here is give anyone not so much an excuse to, but an inclination to flip the bird to anyone who doesn't have painted models in any context and feel superior because of it. I take serious issue with that on a basic level of showing respect to others and if I saw someone demand the points in order to win I'd frankly take note to not play that person.
Whether it's in the rules or not, I'd sincerely hope people only pull this on people with a sense of humour and humility.
You, Sir are wise. This is what I'm saying. I'm sure as well people would put in the effort if they play with you a lot to paint their armies, to respect your enjoyment of the game as well. Not because you demand they do it but because you are chill, reasonable and it would be a solid. That is the reason we should want to paint, to make the experience better for each other and not try and force and punish people into it. That just feels bad and makes it a shame driven thing and that isn't what we should be seeking in the game/hobby/community.
2020/07/02 19:57:32
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between being a big part and being a needed part. It's perfectly possible to play 40k and never paint. The rules shouldn't penalise you for not painting and house rules shouldn't be needed to play a decently structured game.
I'm curious, if I demanded people bring written copies of their personal lore for their army to play the game and gave them 10% less points if they didn't do so how many people who are saying that the paint rule is fine would be cool with that?
It is perfectly possible to play 40k using shot glasses and tupperware for vehicles. You should try to pull off the pepsi keeper of secrets then.
2020/07/02 19:57:53
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Your wrong because it's codified in the rules and disagree or that you think this is somehow stopping you from playing, despite it not.
I will agree with you that the rules state that a painted army gets an extra 10 points, when painted to exactly Battle Ready standards.
But why SHOULD it be that way? And why SHOULD you mock others or denigrate them for not wanting to paint?
I mean, what's the difference between "You should paint your models before you play with them!" and "You should memorize a model's rules before you paint them!"
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/07/02 20:03:50
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
Do you drive exactly the speed limit?
You don't just waive rules because you feel like. Either the rule is good or bad.
Also yes I do stick to the speed limit, only ever going 5 above at most. Granted I have a garbage Civic that can't go fast whatsoever so it is what it is.
No man, you either follow the speed limit exactly or you just have to get rid of it because you don't believe it. It's a bad rule.
I don't purposely do it believe me
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/07/02 20:08:12
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
AngryAngel80 wrote: You shouldn't need to waive it though and the fact we already are having made decisions on when and if and why we ignore a core rule, the rule is broken before it's released.
Don't be absurd. There are shedload of laws, customs, regulations and requirements in real life that are perfectly sensible and useful and still need to be waived in some specific circumstances. Like if you're receiving a delivery they might require a signature and as general practice that is fine and sensible but it still should be waived in a situation where the recipient if for medical reasons unable of signing their name.
Are we now conflating receiving punitive measures from not following a stated law with receiving a boon for going "above the standard" (or what appears to be the standard if there is an incentive for putting paint on your plastic).
That's where the speed limit argument breaks down. I don't violate the speed limit because there is a very real punitive action taken against me if I choose to violate it. I don't follow the speed limit because it gets me there faster. I guess you could argue that we follow the speed limit for safety and insurance reasons (but even then that is purely to avoid punitive measures for not).
Like I can go my entire army career without receiving a medal for any of my service... but if I go above and beyond the normal standard... I get a little award for being a swell soldier. We're not throwing people article 15s and Courts Martials for not excelling at their jobs. Let's at least argue from a place of good faith here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 20:09:43
2020/07/02 20:12:13
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
Do you drive exactly the speed limit?
You don't just waive rules because you feel like. Either the rule is good or bad.
Also yes I do stick to the speed limit, only ever going 5 above at most. Granted I have a garbage Civic that can't go fast whatsoever so it is what it is.
No man, you either follow the speed limit exactly or you just have to get rid of it because you don't believe it. It's a bad rule.
I don't purposely do it believe me
Well the flow on 101 tends to be around 75-78 when traffic is good. It's a 65 zone. Is the 65 speed limit a bad rule? Do we throw it out?
Or maybe we accept that the rule is a guideline and we allow some flexibility based on a communal understanding.
Your wrong because it's codified in the rules and disagree or that you think this is somehow stopping you from playing, despite it not.
I will agree with you that the rules state that a painted army gets an extra 10 points, when painted to exactly Battle Ready standards.
But why SHOULD it be that way? And why SHOULD you mock others or denigrate them for not wanting to paint?
I mean, what's the difference between "You should paint your models before you play with them!" and "You should memorize a model's rules before you paint them!"
Thats a false equivalency.
1. I am painting by myself.
2. You have to willfully be ignorant of the order of operation here.
I can paint my army and never play a game. If I play the game I have to now paint my models if I want +10 vps. It's not preventing anyone from playing btw.
I am not mocking folks that don't paint their models. I am mocking folks that don't want to paint their models yet still want to have their own way.
It's just as arbitrary to allow unpainted models on the table as to require them. GW literally has the business model of building, painting then playing with those models. This is hardly anything new despite the bitching.
It's entitlement 101
You can still show up play and have fun, you can still try to win and even pull off the win. Your just angry that someone that put in extra work is being rewarded. It doesn't matter if you don't like like that part. I hate the psychic phase, can I demand we don't play with psychers?
Your literally playing a game that is imbalanced to the point where purchases affect game outcome, but somehow the buck stops at painting your damned models? Your taking hours to learn the rules, hours to assemble them but apparently 10 minutes with a few rattle cans is the hill your going to die on? Oh and heaven forbid you might ASK your opponent for some leeway! I mean imagine debasing yourself and the blow to your pride that your might ask them to give you the points.
You know that gets me to thinking. GW should have made it a bonus section for sportsmanship. You get to reward your opponent +10 points for having a BRS minimum army. Had it been implemented like that are you saying you would never reward your opponent for putting in the extra effort you refuse to?
AngryAngel80 wrote: You shouldn't need to waive it though and the fact we already are having made decisions on when and if and why we ignore a core rule, the rule is broken before it's released.
Don't be absurd. There are shedload of laws, customs, regulations and requirements in real life that are perfectly sensible and useful and still need to be waived in some specific circumstances. Like if you're receiving a delivery they might require a signature and as general practice that is fine and sensible but it still should be waived in a situation where the recipient if for medical reasons unable of signing their name.
The fact you're talking to me of actual legal handling shouldn't need to be made for a game designed for fun. Don't you see how off the wall that is ? That my friend is the peak of absurd. This isn't the law of the land, it's rules for a miniature game. We shouldn't need to be already deciding to enforce it on some people and ignore it for others as that is a sure sign the law is broke as a damn joke and not a funny one either.
Game rules shouldn't need to be ignored for some and enforced to just shame and be little others, that is the exact opposite of fun and inclusive.
2020/07/02 20:27:39
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
The fact you're talking to me of actual legal handling shouldn't need to be made for a game designed for fun. Don't you see how off the wall that is ? That my friend is the peak of absurd. This isn't the law of the land, it's rules for a miniature game. We shouldn't need to be already deciding to enforce it on some people and ignore it for others as that is a sure sign the law is broke as a damn joke and not a funny one either.
Game rules shouldn't need to be ignored for some and enforced to just shame and be little others, that is the exact opposite of fun and inclusive.
The rule does not prevent anyone from playing and if we are talking about hobbies and disabilities, of course sometimes you need to make special dispensations. If you assume that any game that cannot be played unmodified by people with any disability that could potentially exist is fundamentally a bad game, then I doubt any good games can exist. Hell, rock-paper-scissors assumes that the player has at least one functioning hand!
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
Do you drive exactly the speed limit?
You don't just waive rules because you feel like. Either the rule is good or bad.
Also yes I do stick to the speed limit, only ever going 5 above at most. Granted I have a garbage Civic that can't go fast whatsoever so it is what it is.
No man, you either follow the speed limit exactly or you just have to get rid of it because you don't believe it. It's a bad rule.
I don't purposely do it believe me
Well the flow on 101 tends to be around 75-78 when traffic is good. It's a 65 zone. Is the 65 speed limit a bad rule? Do we throw it out?
Or maybe we accept that the rule is a guideline and we allow some flexibility based on a communal understanding.
So the rest of the people are breaking the law, perfect.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/07/02 20:34:57
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Blndmage wrote: To the folks who think I could be given a pass due to my disability.
In garagehammer groups, you'd be right.
At FLGS's? Literally had my vision used against me on a number of occasions, and when I called it out at the store? A slap on the wrist, and zero consequences. The digital local groups froze me out or told me to "play better".
The local community is competitive and tournament focused.
I've tried to find folks who I could play not at stores with, but I've become a Pariah now.
Being a disabled gamer isn't easy of as fun as you'd imagine. Most gamers are...at least not consciously ablist, but it's a huuuge issue. That's not even touching on the misogyny that's almost a core tennentnof many gaming circles. Literally had folks cancel/ghost games and big organized things after I changed my avatar in our local groups to a pic of me.
Hey Blindmage, sounds like a gakky, sexist, ableist local scene you've got, sorry to hear that. If you're ever in the UK let me know, I play with a lovely group of players who give no grief and are friendly and kind, we'd be well up for playing some Canadian Crons!
For what it's worth, you've changed my mind on this rule. I was previously all for it, but hearing it from your perspective I no longer like it.
Good luck on building a little group of players who are cool & not-dicks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 20:36:01
2020/07/02 20:35:43
Subject: Re:Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?h
Nope. If you have to houserule something, it means there's a problem with the rule at hand. Either you actually DO agree with it or you don't, Insectum. This isn't some middle ground thing.
I'm happy with the rule, but I'm happy to waive it in various circumstances. It's fine.
Like WYSIWYG. It was a rule, but lots of people comfortably proxied just the same.
Do you drive exactly the speed limit?
You don't just waive rules because you feel like. Either the rule is good or bad.
Also yes I do stick to the speed limit, only ever going 5 above at most. Granted I have a garbage Civic that can't go fast whatsoever so it is what it is.
No man, you either follow the speed limit exactly or you just have to get rid of it because you don't believe it. It's a bad rule.
I don't purposely do it believe me
Well the flow on 101 tends to be around 75-78 when traffic is good. It's a 65 zone. Is the 65 speed limit a bad rule? Do we throw it out?
Or maybe we accept that the rule is a guideline and we allow some flexibility based on a communal understanding.
So the rest of the people are breaking the law, perfect.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough.
GW wants to encourage you to paint your army. They give you a little bonus for doing so. Players can follow the rule or not follow the rule, and set standards for their respective communities at their discretion. Good enough!
The fact you're talking to me of actual legal handling shouldn't need to be made for a game designed for fun. Don't you see how off the wall that is ? That my friend is the peak of absurd. This isn't the law of the land, it's rules for a miniature game. We shouldn't need to be already deciding to enforce it on some people and ignore it for others as that is a sure sign the law is broke as a damn joke and not a funny one either.
Game rules shouldn't need to be ignored for some and enforced to just shame and be little others, that is the exact opposite of fun and inclusive.
The rule does not prevent anyone from playing and if we are talking about hobbies and disabilities, of course sometimes you need to make special dispensations. If you assume that any game that cannot be played unmodified by people with any disability that could potentially exist is fundamentally a bad game, then I doubt any good games can exist. Hell, rock-paper-scissors assumes that the player has at least one functioning hand!
I'm about to blow up your whole world view here but I'm going to say it. You ever stop to think maybe those with disabilities don't want you to lower the bar for them all the time ? Maybe they want to push and strive and meet you on a more equal level ? Why should there be a rule that is punitive, doesn't at all change game play, only further divides us all and as a side effect negatively effects disabled players and is being openly praised as a way to shame and punish people in the game who either paint slow, don't like or paint and can't meet their " Battle Ready " dumb standard for whatever reason ?
It's a poor rule, a crap rule. Painting should be something you strive for not something you are directly punished by the game itself for not doing to its standards.
2020/07/02 20:42:00
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
The fact you're talking to me of actual legal handling shouldn't need to be made for a game designed for fun. Don't you see how off the wall that is ? That my friend is the peak of absurd. This isn't the law of the land, it's rules for a miniature game. We shouldn't need to be already deciding to enforce it on some people and ignore it for others as that is a sure sign the law is broke as a damn joke and not a funny one either.
Game rules shouldn't need to be ignored for some and enforced to just shame and be little others, that is the exact opposite of fun and inclusive.
The rule does not prevent anyone from playing and if we are talking about hobbies and disabilities, of course sometimes you need to make special dispensations. If you assume that any game that cannot be played unmodified by people with any disability that could potentially exist is fundamentally a bad game, then I doubt any good games can exist. Hell, rock-paper-scissors assumes that the player has at least one functioning hand!
I'm about to blow up your whole world view here but I'm going to say it. You ever stop to think maybe those with disabilities don't want you to lower the bar for them all the time ? Maybe they want to push and strive and meet you on a more equal level ? Why should there be a rule that is punitive, doesn't at all change game play, only further divides us all and as a side effect negatively effects disabled players and is being openly praised as a way to shame and punish people in the game who either paint slow, don't like or paint and can't meet their " Battle Ready " dumb standard for whatever reason ?
It's a poor rule, a crap rule. Painting should be something you strive for not something you are directly punished by the game itself for not doing to its standards.
It's not a rule that exists in the free PDF Core rules and associated mission.
The rule should have just been: "The game is played with assembled and painted GW models. If your army does not comply with these rules, check with your opponent before the game to make sure they are ok with your army."
There was no need to get overly technical with VPs for painting, any more than there was a need to give people 10VPs for a fully assembled force, or for not proxying, or WYSIWYG, or whatever else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 20:42:38
