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My black bases are finished.

 Jidmah wrote:
My black bases are finished.

I disagree, and so does GW apparently.

 Gargantuan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My black bases are finished.

I disagree, and so does GW apparently.

a Few Days before this rule was seen, i had seen a really neat looking black and white army. On the photos they looked awesome, kind of like a comic but from the distance of the tabletop it looked unfinished, and i suspect for this rule they would be seen as such.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not defending the rule, I'm disputing the argument that it's a time consuming art form to get to battle ready.

That is defending the rule. My argument against the rule is that I do not have sufficient time and ability to paint everything to a standard that I like and am punished by losing a fair amount of games because of that..

I'm impressed that you have managed to lose "...a fair amount of games" during an edition which hasn't been released yet.

Also, if you end up losing so many games directly because of this, perhaps that is a sign to either a, play smaller games where you can field a BRS list; or b, that other players in your area have taken the time to get their army to a BRS, and perhaps you should concentrate on what needs to be done to get there for a bit. Two models, from what you said earlier, wasn't it?

Apple fox wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My black bases are finished.

I disagree, and so does GW apparently.

a Few Days before this rule was seen, i had seen a really neat looking black and white army. On the photos they looked awesome, kind of like a comic but from the distance of the tabletop it looked unfinished, and i suspect for this rule they would be seen as such.

Got a link to that, Apple fox? In theory, a well-executed monochrome army should qualify as BRS.

Ironically, monochrome tends to feature many shades of grey - exactly as it sounds like will be the case as it pertains to enforcement of this rule.

Apple fox wrote:

Considering your last responce to me. I think you are the one that is simply Dismissive of others thoughts and responses.

I put lots of effort into painting, I dont want to put minimal effort onto the table. I also am stuck in bed 16 hours on a good day, On my back and in a lot of pain. I can use a ipad to browse and post on Dakka. When i go to play, Its dificult, i am in pain. But my opponant wont know that, and having to argue my case. Against people who are dismissive of my time and ability is probably not worth it, I will just let them have there points if they want it. I dont want to get into a discussion to argue my case. I dont want to talk about my issues to people i only really know at our club.
In the end i will just feel worse about the game, Worse that it is so hard to paint and worse about the painting part of the hobby i enjoy a lot.

This was the opening to your last responce to me on this "All I hear is more excuses. You had the time to go and purchase. You had time to research units and assemble an army. Now all of a sudden you don't have any more time at all? Yet you have time to argue keyboard warriors on the internet? "
I need a mechacal arm to even hold and respond here, I cant just go and paint at any time. I paint when i am able, since its a hobby i enjoy, and i play the game for mental exercise as its one of the few chances i get. I also have to get everything else i want to do in life around the rest i need to have.

Clubs, Tornaments and groups already had ways to deal with this. This rule is just Support for Behavior that is likly more against the ideas that GW themselves say they are against. People wont feel better about the painting hobby, They may feel worse. I probably will :(

Cool story, bro.

Like I said, I'm done with the excuses. There's plenty of examples of me ceding ground on my position and making exceptions. But the push back is always the same:

Lazy, unmotivated, infirm, too slow, or just thinking that they are somehow above the rules. I'm not up for degrading the handicapped, but I'm not about to argue every point taking in every possible exception. It is pointless because it can be strawmanned into eternity. I've also declared that I am aware enough to make a judgment call at the table.

But for you? The issue sounds to be more about you wanting to take 2 months to paint 1 model. And that's perfectly fine. And the rule will "dock" you 10 VP for the next 40 years while you paint your army. Easy enough solution. I mean, if we're going to continue to ignore the fact that you're not even being penalized, because the only time you are penalized is when you face a dude with a painted army and yours still isn't. We've proven time and time again that it isn't a penalty... because if 2 people don't paint then no ground is lost. It REQUIRES one dude to have a painted army, and one person to not. Sounds like the guy who took time to get his army up to the tabletop standard is catching a perk, not the lazy bum with the same pile of unpainted plastic 10 years later receiving a penalty.

Bases, too. I'm not going to cut corners on bases. I may like 'em black, too, but I painted them. Then I hated them painted and textured, went out and got some 3rd party bases... and painted those! Black bases look fine in a vacuum, but they lose a lot on the tabletop. I conceded that awhile ago.

So continue to wage your internet campaign and come up with more and more excuses on why you fail to meet a standard. I'll shrug at you. That's the rules.

I can be reasonable, but man... there's plenty of unreasonable people out here spouting some inane nonsense that definitely pushes the limits of hospitality. And if you're not willing to budge and compromise with me... why should I have to give up the farm to you?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not defending the rule, I'm disputing the argument that it's a time consuming art form to get to battle ready.

That is defending the rule. My argument against the rule is that I do not have sufficient time and ability to paint everything to a standard that I like and am punished by losing a fair amount of games because of that..

I'm impressed that you have managed to lose "...a fair amount of games" during an edition which hasn't been released yet.

Also, if you end up losing so many games directly because of this, perhaps that is a sign to either a, play smaller games where you can field a BRS list; or b, that other players in your area have taken the time to get their army to a BRS, and perhaps you should concentrate on what needs to be done to get there for a bit. Two models, from what you said earlier, wasn't it?

Nah, I'll just argue that models that are above battle ready do not qualify for the 10 VP either. If they disagree, I can still 4+ it. Or be a toxic player to make my opponent who tries to claim these points miserable enough during the game so the concede. I could also cosplay as great unclean one to make sure I win the game because they go to time from being knocked out from my stink.
As the mutual enjoyment of the hobby clearly isn't a factor when it comes to scoring these 10 VP from painting, these things are obviously fine as well.

Wow...this is still going. All this rule is going to do is fracture game stores and potentially kill smaller groups. I don't paint. Call me lazy or whatever the hell else you want. There is no enjoyment to be had in painting, it is a miserable process and I will have none of it. It doesn't add to immersion in games and I have a group of friends who don't care so we will ignore the rule.

There are other players in our local area who are going to attempt to claim these points. They are going to argue over every paint job on every model in the opponents army to deny them the points. I identified these players in my group 5 secs after reading it and moved them from the "play only if I really want a game and have no other option" group to the "never play again" group. I feel this is how every local group is going to be now.

 UncleJetMints wrote:
Wow...this is still going. All this rule is going to do is fracture game stores and potentially kill smaller groups. I don't paint. Call me lazy or whatever the hell else you want. There is no enjoyment to be had in painting, it is a miserable process and I will have none of it. It doesn't add to immersion in games and I have a group of friends who don't care so we will ignore the rule.

There are other players in our local area who are going to attempt to claim these points. They are going to argue over every paint job on every model in the opponents army to deny them the points. I identified these players in my group 5 secs after reading it and moved them from the "play only if I really want a game and have no other option" group to the "never play again" group. I feel this is how every local group is going to be now.

Prejudice much?

Or they collectively called you up 5 secs after you read that and said: "Enjoy being 10 VP down, loser!"?

Then again, if all the game to you is putting together good units and clobbering another player to table them ASAP and every single VP matters (you know, beating them 45-15 makes you feel better than 45-25)... on your "casual games"... then perhaps you're doing them a favor by isolating yourself away from them before even seeing what their point-of-view on the matter is.

Dudeface wrote:

I'd already answered for myself (thanks for the selective editing) but by the book you lose 10vp.

I know you already answered for yourself, but that's the whole point.

Why do players now need to as their opponent's permission to justify their aesthetic choices? How is this remotely a good thing?

I'm still a bit "eh" on black bases - but maybe I can get behind it. Really if you are painting them black I think that would count as painted (as against leaving them untouched - although I know that fires a debate over what to do with rims).

But... playing 40k, and caring about winning 40k games, but not painting anything is so... weird to me. At a certain point why bother with models themselves? Just have pieces of paper with the unit name written on them.

You can play the game with unpainted models.
You can win the game with unpainted models.
You can play with people who don't enforce the rule.
It's fine.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 UncleJetMints wrote:
Wow...this is still going. All this rule is going to do is fracture game stores and potentially kill smaller groups. I don't paint. Call me lazy or whatever the hell else you want. There is no enjoyment to be had in painting, it is a miserable process and I will have none of it. It doesn't add to immersion in games and I have a group of friends who don't care so we will ignore the rule.

There are other players in our local area who are going to attempt to claim these points. They are going to argue over every paint job on every model in the opponents army to deny them the points. I identified these players in my group 5 secs after reading it and moved them from the "play only if I really want a game and have no other option" group to the "never play again" group. I feel this is how every local group is going to be now.

Prejudice much?

Or they collectively called you up 5 secs after you read that and said: "Enjoy being 10 VP down, loser!"?

Then again, if all the game to you is putting together good units and clobbering another player to table them ASAP and every single VP matters (you know, beating them 45-15 makes you feel better than 45-25)... on your "casual games"... then perhaps you're doing them a favor by isolating yourself away from them before even seeing what their point-of-view on the matter is.

Nice, I like losers who attack people they don't know after not fully reading something. Hope everything is ok at home for ya buddy.

Anyway, no I am not prejudice, these specific people have a history of trying to rules lawyer any little advantage they can, arguing every little point made by an opponent, "gatcha"ing new player, not talking to opponents before games, and even swapping models last second on "friendly" games to list tailor for a win. One of them was at an event and people from out of town that had never met him new who he was by the end of round 2 due to the way he was acting.

Also my "Casual games" as you called them don't involve me trying to crush anybody, it is literally just a thing me and my friends ( plus some people from local stores who are fun to play with) do while we bs around and talk, as I said, which with the lockdown has shifted from Warhammer to things like StarCraft.

 UncleJetMints wrote:

Spoiler:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 UncleJetMints wrote:
Wow...this is still going. All this rule is going to do is fracture game stores and potentially kill smaller groups. I don't paint. Call me lazy or whatever the hell else you want. There is no enjoyment to be had in painting, it is a miserable process and I will have none of it. It doesn't add to immersion in games and I have a group of friends who don't care so we will ignore the rule.

There are other players in our local area who are going to attempt to claim these points. They are going to argue over every paint job on every model in the opponents army to deny them the points. I identified these players in my group 5 secs after reading it and moved them from the "play only if I really want a game and have no other option" group to the "never play again" group. I feel this is how every local group is going to be now.

Prejudice much?

Or they collectively called you up 5 secs after you read that and said: "Enjoy being 10 VP down, loser!"?

Then again, if all the game to you is putting together good units and clobbering another player to table them ASAP and every single VP matters (you know, beating them 45-15 makes you feel better than 45-25)... on your "casual games"... then perhaps you're doing them a favor by isolating yourself away from them before even seeing what their point-of-view on the matter is.

Nice, I like losers who attack people they don't know after not fully reading something. Hope everything is ok at home for ya buddy.

Anyway, no I am not prejudice, these specific people have a history of trying to rules lawyer any little advantage they can, arguing every little point made by an opponent, "gatcha"ing new player, not talking to opponents before games, and even swapping models last second on "friendly" games to list tailor for a win. One of them was at an event and people from out of town that had never met him new who he was by the end of round 2 due to the way he was acting.

Also my "Casual games" as you called them don't involve me trying to crush anybody, it is literally just a thing me and my friends ( plus some people from local stores who are fun to play with) do while we bs around and talk, as I said, which with the lockdown has shifted from Warhammer to things like StarCraft.

Yeah well, don't play against that guy. TFG gonna TFG regardless.

Or get good enough to clobber him with your unpainted army. Sometimes you can drive them away from the store.

 Eldarsif wrote:
In a tourney? Yes. In a friendly game? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
You guys know that outside of tournaments with material prizes 'Winning' is entirely in your head, right?

Ssssh, that's a secret.

Also for those not in the know, and not playing one of GW's better games, AoS has the same rule on their scoring sheet and so far AoS players haven't had a problem with it.

I don't really care what AoS players thing or do.

 UncleJetMints wrote:
I identified these players in my group 5 secs after reading it and moved them from the "play only if I really want a game and have no other option" group to the "never play again" group. I feel this is how every local group is going to be now.

You literally judged them all with only a cursory thought and dismissed them out of hand because of your feels. That's textbook prejudice.

You literally segregated your play group without having a decent discussion.

I've listed NUMEROUS exemptions I am comfortable making to this rule, my vision fairly aligns to this, as demonstrated in this thread numerous times:

This rule will be great for organized play as it establishes a bare-minimum standard.

This rule engages more communities by no longer EXCLUDING unpainted armies, but instead it EMPOWERS painted ones. Aka: you're free to play your dusty old bright pewter terminators at an organized event without being cast out from the get-go, but you will potentially be at a disadvantage if you play against people who put in the time and effort to meet the base standards outlined in the Battle Ready standard identified by GW and Warhammer Community.

This rule will likely never impact local tables, pickup games, or casual games because players will freely ignore it or enforce it exclusively to enhance their gaming experience. Some players are going to want to take the -10 VP, one of my friends actually said he wanted it as motivation to finish his plastic debt. I told him I'd feel like a jerk enforcing it because we're playing for fun, I'd hate to put him at a disadvantage because he wanted to explore his army. He refused and said "if you field it, you take the VP" and that was that. Like he was offended that I WOULDN'T enforce the rule because he was using it to MOTIVATE himself to finish that backlog. I would never enforce it on a new player because I'd rather the game grow and continue to bring in new people... and that means helping them spin up in the hobby. I may point out that the rule exists and they may want to spend some time on painting, too. I'd even help them do that. I'm not an unreasonable person.

But when people start being ugly. When people are unreasonable back. When you expect to sit on your butt and make demands that I concede ground to you for this, that, and the other. Well, it REALLY turns me off. You're demonstrating that you're not interested in my experience at all, and all you want is to maximize yours at my expense. In that case, in those fringe cases where someone wants to be an unwavering jerk, I'll collect my 10 VPs. I'll make sure to play an army that gets it, even though it is demonstrably worse performing on the table. And then you can slaughter my awesome looking army to the tune of 90-10. And then you'll see that all the belligerence was not worth it, and all you did was potentially lose a cool friend in the process.

Tyel wrote:
I'm still a bit "eh" on black bases - but maybe I can get behind it.

I appreciate that people have different aesthetic tastes. I don't ask that you (or anyone else) like my models having black bases (or my paint scheme or my conversions or any other aesthetic choices I've made), just as I won't always like the choices you or others might have have made with regard to your own bases and paint schemes.

However, prior to this rule, my opponent's opinion on the aesthetics of my models didn't determine whether he'd get an in-game advantage.

Tyel wrote:
Really if you are painting them black I think that would count as painted (as against leaving them untouched

But how would you tell? Are you really going to ask to examine each one of my models so that you can check whether the bases are naturally black or painted black? And if the purpose is supposed to be for the overall aesthetic, then why should that even matter one iota, let alone influence the outcome of a game?

 vipoid wrote:

Why do I bring this up?

Because as far as 'Battle Ready' is concerned, each of these models is no better than grey plastic. Why? Because I haven't painted their bases. But I specifically don't paint bases because I find that they almost always look out of place, regardless (since the base rarely ever matches the colour/texture of the table). Not only that but there isn't even an exception given for transparent bases. I thought the entire point of having transparent bases was so that they'd almost blend in with the table and create the illusion of the model hovering in the air?

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that this rule does not encourage me to paint my army. If anything, it does the opposite - because if I'm being penalised even for models that I've spent hours and hours converting and painting, why should I even bother with anything else?

/rant

I agree with you about bases. I prefer plain black in general. I will take the time and effort to clean them up, but they're going to be black. Based black, no texture.

Kirioth gets it, he says it very nicely!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgO1aa2f7Gs

The sheen on bare plastic will be different than one that's been painted.

Personally I think black bases are fine. My biggest beef with them is the mold release point in the center looks jenky.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The sheen on bare plastic will be different than one that's been painted.

Personally I think black bases are fine. My biggest beef with them is the mold release point in the center looks jenky.

I hate that little bump... even when painting my bases up nicely to look like marble flooring... there was that ugly indention.

Then I spent way too much money getting casted bases that lacked that defect and match the aesthetic I was hunting :(

Not digging on people who don't fill it with texture or just paint over it, just saying that the little indention there has caused me so much torment! It's rather humorous, really

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The sheen on bare plastic will be different than one that's been painted.

Personally I think black bases are fine. My biggest beef with them is the mold release point in the center looks jenky.

I hate that little bump... even when painting my bases up nicely to look like marble flooring... there was that ugly indention.

Then I spent way too much money getting casted bases that lacked that defect and match the aesthetic I was hunting :(

Not digging on people who don't fill it with texture or just paint over it, just saying that the little indention there has caused me so much torment! It's rather humorous, really

What was wrong with the sprue of four bases, where the injection point was on the sprue itself, not the middle of the darned base?

 Dysartes wrote:


I hate that little bump... even when painting my bases up nicely to look like marble flooring... there was that ugly indention.

Then I spent way too much money getting casted bases that lacked that defect and match the aesthetic I was hunting :(

Not digging on people who don't fill it with texture or just paint over it, just saying that the little indention there has caused me so much torment! It's rather humorous, really

What was wrong with the sprue of four bases, where the injection point was on the sprue itself, not the middle of the darned base?

I looked into the abyss too far and came out with:

http://www.secretweaponminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=79_30_158&products_id=1138&zenid=9i0abrhfq83pm0o2in9o92odl0

I loved 'em so much I decided to replace all my bases for the army with those. No regrets!

Honestly, if I had to use the GW bases with the indention, I'd just texture over it. I just looked at the most recent baggie of bases from GW and they're just solid, individual bases in the bag and probably very good for use for models. But I do so love the secret weapon ones and probably going to continue to use those because I'm a dirty capitalist and can afford to spend stupid money on designer bases. In all honesty though, they're a good product and I strongly endorse them, the bases are amazing. The prices aren't too bad either compared to the grift GW has going on these days

This poll is far too simple to correctly answer because this works like every other rule in the game which depends on the setting.
>hosting an escalation league where the whole point is to get an army painted-yes
>playing a game with a buddy who wants to try new models-No
>some kid wants to try his first game with the models he just slapped together- NO
>going to play at a tournament using official GW rules_ Yes
I'm surprised that of all the new rules this one is receiving so much much time being discussed. Just use the rule in the appropriate setting. GW thugs aren't going to show up to your house and beat you for not using this rule when having a casual game with buddies

yukishiro1 wrote:
Painting has always been a big part of 40k, from the very start.

But if you missed it up until now..this is that change. They just declared that painting is a cornerstone of getting full VPs in competitive 40k.

If you don't like it...just play with your own rules pack that leaves that rule out. As long as everyone playing agrees, it doesn't matter what the official rules say.

It's been a part of the *hobby* from the start. Not the game.
Some people enjoy the hobby, some the game, some both.

Now people who enjoy the game are being punished because they don't like the hobby.

Or because they paint slow.

Or because they have to chose between play, or paint.

I kinda liked it when this thread was locked as I don't think this conversation will go anywhere except create further discord.

Ultimately I think this is a rule we'll have to see how it performs in the wild. Granted, a lot of people live in what sounds like hellholes - if the stories told in this thread and elsewhere are true - and I am sorry for that and I wish I could somehow change those places to be those of love, respect, and friendship. At the same time I wonder if there are some good people in those hellholes - people who will be reasonable and accommodating. Perhaps that is the true quest: To find like-minded spirits. Souls who are journeying with us through eternity.

Only time will tell.

Asmodios wrote:
This poll is far too simple to correctly answer because this works like every other rule in the game which depends on the setting.
>hosting an escalation league where the whole point is to get an army painted-yes
>playing a game with a buddy who wants to try new models-No
>some kid wants to try his first game with the models he just slapped together- NO
>going to play at a tournament using official GW rules_ Yes
I'm surprised that of all the new rules this one is receiving so much much time being discussed. Just use the rule in the appropriate setting. GW thugs aren't going to show up to your house and beat you for not using this rule when having a casual game with buddies

I don't think it's an issue with "GW thugs" enforcing their silly rules but an issue with the attitude and message that having official rules for painted models sends. If people don't want to play against unpainted models then they are 100% within their right to refuse a game. People are also within their right to not paint models. The issue is having the rules punish using unpainted models which goes against the spirit of the game.

It wouldn't surprise me if they make some rule about using unofficial models/parts (aka 3rd party stuff) being penalized in the future if they don't get enough backlash from this sort of stuff.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I kinda liked it when this thread was locked as I don't think this conversation will go anywhere except create further discord.

Ultimately I think this is a rule we'll have to see how it performs in the wild. Granted, a lot of people live in what sounds like hellholes - if the stories told in this thread and elsewhere are true - and I am sorry for that and I wish I could somehow change those places to be those of love, respect, and friendship. At the same time I wonder if there are some good people in those hellholes - people who will be reasonable and accommodating. Perhaps that is the true quest: To find like-minded spirits. Souls who are journeying with us through eternity.

Only time will tell.

Pretty much, the simple answer is to speak to people and play with people or at places with similar views. I'm all for GW promoting people painting their stuff, it makes the hobby look better to those who might be interested and for me - it improves my satisfaction of the game seeing a table full of painted terrain and 2 painted armies facing off.

Some people clearly aren't willing to just communicate with their opponent before hand and have chosen a hill to die on in either direction rather than being willing to talk and compromise.

 Jidmah wrote:
My black bases are finished.

Same here. If I had access to clear acrylic bases when I started my Tau army (back in 3rd), I would have done them that way. If I ever get through my paint backlog, I might migrate the 2 1/2 armies I've done this way to clear acrylic bases - though I don't relish doing it to 200+ models.

 Crimson wrote:

Everyone who starts this hobby should know that it is supposed to be played with painted models. Complaining about having to paint makes just as little sense than complaining about having to assemble the models or having to read the rules.

The game isn't the same as the hobby. Just because *you* like to paint doesn't mean other people should be punished for not sharing your preference.

Furthermore, people aren't complaining about painting. They're complaining about an arbitrary standard, that aside from it's inclusion, has not effect on the game.

Incorrect, I made a decision about the likelihood that I will play specific people in my group based on their past actions and how I think they will interact with this rule. I believe the term you are looking for is character profiling not prejudice. If you don't want to be identified as a TFG then don't act like a TFG.

I'm not responding to this anymore because it comes of as you thinking I'm attacking people who just want to play against painted armies. I'm not. I am talking about specific people in my group who will use this rule to deny people with painted armies 10 VP because "technically you didn't base your models when you used the GW scenic bases" or "I actually only lost 70-30 cause my army is fully painted and yours isn't."