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2020/07/07 18:24:17
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
You are free to disagree with their official stance and in fact GW always encourages players to modify and change their rules in whatever way best suits them.
[Citation Needed]
If the rules don't matter, why bother publishing rules? Just smack your toys together.
2020/07/07 18:28:33
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
AngryAngel80 wrote:Off topic, you think GW is expensive, check out some lego kits, my word.
Oof, tell me about it! I swear they were never so much when I was a kid!
I was honestly shocked, it made me, for one of the rare times think of GW as cheap.
To really see how expensive GW kits are, compare them to gunpla kits.
Oh don't get me wrong, I still think GW is expensive as heck but this isn't really a thread for that, I just was shocked to see how expensive Legos became, that's all.
2020/07/07 18:30:17
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
You are free to disagree with their official stance and in fact GW always encourages players to modify and change their rules in whatever way best suits them.
[Citation Needed]
If the rules don't matter, why bother publishing rules? Just smack your toys together.
Hahaha, I'm not going to get into a citation argument with you of all people, BCB. GW has always had a loose approach to rules. You know this.
This painting rule shows exactly how loose their approach is. For them, the true winners of the game aren't the ones who simply win on game mechanics alone. In their eyes, great generals are the ones who also embody the spirit of the hobby, which manifests in game as +10 VP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW is basically saying, take the rules less seriously, or paint your minis.
GW is trying to exclude players who ONLY take the rules super seriously and ignore the rest of the hobby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 18:33:07
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2020/07/07 18:35:05
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
You are free to disagree with their official stance and in fact GW always encourages players to modify and change their rules in whatever way best suits them.
[Citation Needed]
If the rules don't matter, why bother publishing rules? Just smack your toys together.
Well here is the thing, if people like the rule they are the end all be all, if they make no sense or shouldn't be universally followed they are simply suggestions. Either way GW is a miracle for giving them to us we are the problem for not understanding their wisdom. GW has never released a bad rule you see, just amazing rules and suggestions.
2020/07/07 18:37:01
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Castozor wrote:How is an extra 10 VP when determining the winner not affecting the game? Feth they could have made the rule painted armies get another 1/2 CP, and you know what? That would probably decide less games than an extra 10 VP for free. A technical loss is still a loss.
Edit: and to add to what was said above, so far all I'm seeing now is TFG behaviour from BOTH sides of the fence on this issue. That alone should be reason enough to damn the existence of this rule.
Twilight Pathways wrote:Noticing a false dichotomy being promoted in this thread between casual and WAAC tournament player. Also some strange definitions of casual and treating casual players like they are a homogenous group (along with authoritative claims about what a casual player would, wouldn't, should, and shouldn't do).
The repeated assertion that casual players do not care about a fair game and whether they won or lost is too broad imo. Casual play can also encompass friendly games which aren't WAAC, netlisted or bad-natured, yet the players nevertheless want to engage in something at least attempting to approximate a tactical battle, without points being given out like candy due to out-of-game decisions.
Caring about whether you won or lost the scenario is part of a casual play mindset. Caring about whether a completely-unrelated-to-gameplay bonus turns a victory into a defeat by sheer technicality is not a casual play mindset.
If I score higher VPs in-game, and my buddy informs me that technically I lost because he got a painting bonus... so what? We both know who really won the battle. Our casual game isn't being reported for tournament rankings or anything. It is completely immaterial who 'actually' won.
I would posit that if you obviously beat your opponent on scenario objectives, winning the battle by all practical measures, but then get bent out of shape because a throwaway sentence says that they actually technically won on the basis of a gimmick, you're not a casual player.
Again: The bonus VP for painting doesn't actually affect the battle. It doesn't affect whether your troops live or die, or how effective your weapons are, or whether you're able to accomplish the actual in-game objectives. It makes exactly zero difference until you go to tally the score, at which point you can clearly see who actually scored more VP in-game, and then decide to get upset about whether the inanimate rulebook declares who 'really' won.
Exactly
2020/07/07 18:37:52
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Castozor wrote: Hobbying should be something you do for fun, not for getting technical victories especially when, you guessed it, the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby.
GWwants hobbying to be part of technical victories. And yeah, they are specifically kicking those people in the shins, those people who are chasing technical victories without any consideration for the hobby. This is their stance.
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
Exactly, 40k as a whole is a venn diagram with the following options:
Lore Fan
Hobby fan (painting and modeling goes here)
Game fan
players can be in any of these in any combination.
Why isn't GW giving 10pts for fluffy armies then?
If a player cannot name all the campaigns his army took place in, does that mean he's not enjoying his hobby the proper way?
They give you that. It is called being "battleforged"
2020/07/07 18:38:53
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Castozor wrote: Hobbying should be something you do for fun, not for getting technical victories especially when, you guessed it, the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby.
GWwants hobbying to be part of technical victories. And yeah, they are specifically kicking those people in the shins, those people who are chasing technical victories without any consideration for the hobby. This is their stance.
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
Exactly, 40k as a whole is a venn diagram with the following options:
Lore Fan Hobby fan (painting and modeling goes here) Game fan
players can be in any of these in any combination. Why isn't GW giving 10pts for fluffy armies then? If a player cannot name all the campaigns his army took place in, does that mean he's not enjoying his hobby the proper way?
They give you that. It is called being "battleforged"
A Knight in a SHA, three BA Smash Captains and three five-man squads of scouts, rounded off by a bunch of Guardsmen is still battleforged at 2k points.
Edit: The entire Deathwing, so 10 Squads of Deathwing Terminators lead by Belial, is NOT battleforged.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 18:44:29
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/07/07 18:40:50
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
You are free to disagree with their official stance and in fact GW always encourages players to modify and change their rules in whatever way best suits them.
[Citation Needed]
If the rules don't matter, why bother publishing rules? Just smack your toys together.
Hahaha, I'm not going to get into a citation argument with you of all people, BCB. GW has always had a loose approach to rules. You know this.
This painting rule shows exactly how loose their approach is. For them, the true winners of the game aren't the ones who simply win on game mechanics alone. In their eyes, great generals are the ones who also embody the spirit of the hobby, which manifests in game as +10 VP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW is basically saying, take the rules less seriously, or paint your minis.
GW is trying to exclude players who ONLY take the rules super seriously and ignore the rest of the hobby.
If you cannot convince them that GW has advertised its game as meant to be played with painted minis then you're not going to convince them of that either.
Some people just won't listen, despite evidence to the contrary from the creators of the game....
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2020/07/07 18:44:04
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Edit: Perhaps at this point I might add, whereas some of you seem to think you should be granted free points for being a full hobbyist/good painter I take pride in being a good (well were I play at least, YMMV) general and in improving my skills as a player. Who are you to take a free victory because you happen to enjoy a completely unrelated aspect of the hobby I don't?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 18:50:11
2020/07/07 18:44:27
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Castozor wrote: Hobbying should be something you do for fun, not for getting technical victories especially when, you guessed it, the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby.
GWwants hobbying to be part of technical victories. And yeah, they are specifically kicking those people in the shins, those people who are chasing technical victories without any consideration for the hobby. This is their stance.
And their stance is dumb, as pointed out before do I get to win painting competitions now because I beat that Golden Demon level painter in a game? No of course not because that'd be silly. It might be an overall hobby for SOME people but each individual part has its own standards by which success is measured. Or rather used to have individual standards because we now have this abomination of a rule. I don't chase for technical victories either but it would stand to reason that to win a game you win by being better at the game, not because you decided to wear pink socks that morning.
Exactly, 40k as a whole is a venn diagram with the following options:
Lore Fan
Hobby fan (painting and modeling goes here)
Game fan
players can be in any of these in any combination.
Why isn't GW giving 10pts for fluffy armies then?
If a player cannot name all the campaigns his army took place in, does that mean he's not enjoying his hobby the proper way?
They give you that. It is called being "battleforged"
No, battleforged only means youre not souping cross superfaction and within detachments.
Do i get bonuses for running a deathwing army?
Do i get bonuses for running a no boots on the ground kabal of the flayed skul?
Do i get bonuses for running guardsmen with a Tau army? (oh wait, the rules litterally prevent you from building a fluffy army)
2020/07/07 18:49:24
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
I assume it's because painting is an overt, visual exercise that directly affects the subjective experience of both players involved in a game of 40k. But I am just guessing.
I never expected everyone to blindly follow along. I expected it to enrage the portion of the player base that doesn't paint the minis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 18:49:50
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2020/07/07 18:49:56
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Why don't you simply add victory points in for what you consider a fluffy army with your group? If you really dislike the way your group builds its armies and they want something completely different out of the game then you... maybe its time to find a groups whos goals for the game line up with yours? I'm just once again failing to see how somehow GW is punishing you by adding in a consolation 10vp (that you don't have to follow) for painting into the game. Like if this rule isn't for your group then just don't use it
2020/07/07 18:51:19
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Why don't you simply add victory points in for what you consider a fluffy army with your group? If you really dislike the way your group builds its armies and they want something completely different out of the game then you... maybe its time to find a groups whos goals for the game line up with yours? I'm just once again failing to see how somehow GW is punishing you by adding in a consolation 10vp (that you don't have to follow) for painting into the game. Like if this rule isn't for your group then just don't use it
Why print the rule if damn-near half the people who play won't even use it? And those that do use it have a dozen common situations that even they wouldn't use it in?
Or, if they MUST print it, why not include it as an optional extra?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/07/07 18:54:04
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
This rule won't apply to my regular group, rest assured. I found a group of people who's values align with mine very well. We are mostly all gamers first, overall hobbyists second. My issue is that this single rule completely killed my incentive to find further pick up games and on basic principle should not exist. I can complain about things I consider unjust even if they do not impact me personally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 18:54:49
2020/07/07 18:55:26
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
Twilight Pathways wrote: Noticing a false dichotomy being promoted in this thread between casual and WAAC tournament player. Also some strange definitions of casual and treating casual players like they are a homogenous group (along with authoritative claims about what a casual player would, wouldn't, should, and shouldn't do).
The repeated assertion that casual players do not care about a fair game and whether they won or lost is too broad imo. Casual play can also encompass friendly games which aren't WAAC, netlisted or bad-natured, yet the players nevertheless want to engage in something at least attempting to approximate a tactical battle, without points being given out like candy due to out-of-game decisions.
If you want a tactical battle, I'd suggest you get your paints on.
If those 10 VPs mean THAT much to you that you'd set the table on fire and burn everything down to avoid getting "punished" by a rule that only rewards... I suggest you deploy a little strategy and paint 'dem models! Never seen armed forces go out painted in gray-out. They usually wear identifiable uniforms, colors, and heraldry signifying what side they're on. You know, hard-to-emulate things to differentiate themselves from the enemy. If you want to approximate a "tactical battle" - I'd say you'd be better off served getting those forces painted than arguing over 10 VPs... since that coat of paint will help your guys tell friend from foe.
Immersion :|
2020/07/07 18:57:55
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Why don't you simply add victory points in for what you consider a fluffy army with your group? If you really dislike the way your group builds its armies and they want something completely different out of the game then you... maybe its time to find a groups whos goals for the game line up with yours? I'm just once again failing to see how somehow GW is punishing you by adding in a consolation 10vp (that you don't have to follow) for painting into the game. Like if this rule isn't for your group then just don't use it
Why print the rule if damn-near half the people who play won't even use it? And those that do use it have a dozen common situations that even they wouldn't use it in?
Or, if they MUST print it, why not include it as an optional extra?
Why not print it though? All it does is help incentivize some people to paint and that can very well lead to people picking up the game. I was about 8 when I walked by a store with 2 people playing a game with painted models and now I've been playing for like 20 years. why not toss in a rule thats absolute worse outcome is having 2 painted armies across for each other (which typically increase everyone including spectators enjoyment of the game)
2020/07/07 19:01:15
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Sounds like you need to do your homework, as this "hobby approach" is ingrained in GW. They even had the quote in White Dwarf once of "Painting runs through our hobby like letters in a stick of Blackpool rock". Numerous times in battle reports they field what are; essentially illegal armies, but fudge it because spectacle. All of those aforementioned batreps having accompanying short stories attached too. It is quite obvious this is not how the company is wired, it was founded by people distributing D&D in the UK and writing Fighting Fantasy books (what does that tell you about how customisable they want their own games to have been?).
GW have always, always wanted you to go to the beat of their drum.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2020/07/07 19:01:57
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Why don't you simply add victory points in for what you consider a fluffy army with your group? If you really dislike the way your group builds its armies and they want something completely different out of the game then you... maybe its time to find a groups whos goals for the game line up with yours? I'm just once again failing to see how somehow GW is punishing you by adding in a consolation 10vp (that you don't have to follow) for painting into the game. Like if this rule isn't for your group then just don't use it
Why print the rule if damn-near half the people who play won't even use it? And those that do use it have a dozen common situations that even they wouldn't use it in?
Or, if they MUST print it, why not include it as an optional extra?
Why not print it though? All it does is help incentivize some people to paint and that can very well lead to people picking up the game. I was about 8 when I walked by a store with 2 people playing a game with painted models and now I've been playing for like 20 years. why not toss in a rule thats absolute worse outcome is having 2 painted armies across for each other (which typically increase everyone including spectators enjoyment of the game)
Because it could just as easily mean someone DOESN'T pick up the game.
What if someone is bad at painting-or even just THINKS they'd be bad at painting-and when they hear that painting your army is worth killing five dreadnoughts, they decide to not play.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/07/07 19:06:57
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"Hi my name is Timmy I made my first small army I haven't been able to afford the paints yet." "Ok Timmy let's have a game." AFewHoursLater.Spongebob "Well, good work Timmy, you outplayed me during the game, but I am afraid you lose because you are new and didn't paint your army yet. Sorry, I guess Warhammer isn't for you!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 19:07:30
2020/07/07 19:08:25
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Why don't you simply add victory points in for what you consider a fluffy army with your group? If you really dislike the way your group builds its armies and they want something completely different out of the game then you... maybe its time to find a groups whos goals for the game line up with yours? I'm just once again failing to see how somehow GW is punishing you by adding in a consolation 10vp (that you don't have to follow) for painting into the game. Like if this rule isn't for your group then just don't use it
Why print the rule if damn-near half the people who play won't even use it? And those that do use it have a dozen common situations that even they wouldn't use it in?
Or, if they MUST print it, why not include it as an optional extra?
Why not print it though? All it does is help incentivize some people to paint and that can very well lead to people picking up the game. I was about 8 when I walked by a store with 2 people playing a game with painted models and now I've been playing for like 20 years. why not toss in a rule thats absolute worse outcome is having 2 painted armies across for each other (which typically increase everyone including spectators enjoyment of the game)
Because it could just as easily mean someone DOESN'T pick up the game.
What if someone is bad at painting-or even just THINKS they'd be bad at painting-and when they hear that painting your army is worth killing five dreadnoughts, they decide to not play.
[/spoiler]
What if I am really bad at making lists and make tons of sub-optimal decisions because I love the paint job I did on that ABSOLUTELY terrible model? What if I am REALLY good at painting but utter garbage at every other phase of the hobby but LOVE to put those models on the table and have some fun with my friends?
Sure, I could win more games by "git gud" or "bring better units" but my decisions weren't rooted there. But now GW saw fit to reward those players. Will there be a cross-section that maximizes both portions to get that full 100 VP with amazing lists? I'm sure there will, but those guys are already winning tournaments, so the status remains quo.
Edit: god, you guys got me strawmanning now, too. See my previous post. That is all
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/07 19:13:14
2020/07/07 19:11:27
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Why don't you simply add victory points in for what you consider a fluffy army with your group? If you really dislike the way your group builds its armies and they want something completely different out of the game then you... maybe its time to find a groups whos goals for the game line up with yours? I'm just once again failing to see how somehow GW is punishing you by adding in a consolation 10vp (that you don't have to follow) for painting into the game. Like if this rule isn't for your group then just don't use it
Why print the rule if damn-near half the people who play won't even use it? And those that do use it have a dozen common situations that even they wouldn't use it in?
Or, if they MUST print it, why not include it as an optional extra?
Why not print it though? All it does is help incentivize some people to paint and that can very well lead to people picking up the game. I was about 8 when I walked by a store with 2 people playing a game with painted models and now I've been playing for like 20 years. why not toss in a rule thats absolute worse outcome is having 2 painted armies across for each other (which typically increase everyone including spectators enjoyment of the game)
Because it could just as easily mean someone DOESN'T pick up the game.
What if someone is bad at painting-or even just THINKS they'd be bad at painting-and when they hear that painting your army is worth killing five dreadnoughts, they decide to not play.
Well first off someone picking up the game for the first time isn't going to have any meaning attached to "killing 5 dreadnoughts". If we are truly talking about a new player that doesn't have any attached bias that some people in this thread have they are going to take away what the rule actually is. they are going to say "oh you get bonus points if you get everything painted" which is what the rule says. Id say that far more people are going to be more likely to play because of seeing 2 painted models then be completely turned off to the game because someone got bonus points for painting
2020/07/07 19:13:55
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
"the people most kicked in the shins by technical victories are the ones who place "playing the game" over the overall hobby"
And I'll reiterate, why pick solely painting as the measure by which being a hobbyist is judged? I play against friends with fully painted, but horribly unfluffy armies whereas I field my DG with at least 30 Plague Marines if not more. Because they are good? No of course not they are overpriced wet noodles but that is how GW decided a fluffy DG list looks like. Were is my free VP candy? And were was this overall hobby approach for the prior 30ish years? You can't expect people to blindly follow along if you make a massive upset like this.
Sounds like you need to do your homework, as this "hobby approach" is ingrained in GW. They even had the quote in White Dwarf once of "Painting runs through our hobby like letters in a stick of Blackpool rock". Numerous times in battle reports they field what are; essentially illegal armies, but fudge it because spectacle. All of those aforementioned batreps having accompanying short stories attached too. It is quite obvious this is not how the company is wired, it was founded by people distributing D&D in the UK and writing Fighting Fantasy books (what does that tell you about how customisable they want their own games to have been?).
GW have always, always wanted you to go to the beat of their drum.
You mean the same GW that once decided conversions are totally rad and cool but now seems to shun any kind of option that does not come in the kit and/or that is not sold by them? That GW? The "hobbyist" GW died a long time ago, if they really wanted to be a complete hobbyist approach GW they would not axe legend options, restrict datasheet options to what's available in their kits an whatsnot. GW can't have their cake and eat it too if they want me to embrace their new idiocy. Dock points for being unfluffy too, not just for painting, give me back my Ork bikers characters, include all weapon options in a Killa Kan kit. I'm not going to take this "hobbyist" approach from the same company that out of pure greed decides to kill any and all kind of hobby expressionism that doesn't benefit their bottom line.
2020/07/07 19:13:58
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
slave.entity wrote: You are free to disagree with their official stance and in fact GW always encourages players to modify and change their rules in whatever way best suits them.
[Citation Needed]
It's called "The Most Important Rule" - surprised you've not read it.
It basically reads "if you're not sure what to do, chat with your opponent, use common sense/fun, and if you can't agree roll-off on it".
This, partnered with the general comments that GW frequently make about generally enjoying yourself how you want to, seem to indicate that, between you and your opponent, they don't care what you do. They just provide rules that you can choose to use.
If the rules don't matter, why bother publishing rules? Just smack your toys together.
To paraphrase Captain Barbossa - "more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules". If you want to stick 100% to those guidelines, you're welcome. If you want to deviate from them when you and your opponent agree to it? You're welcome to that as well.
They/them
2020/07/07 19:20:06
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
BaconCatBug wrote: "Hi my name is Timmy I made my first small army I haven't been able to afford the paints yet."
"Ok Timmy let's have a game."
AFewHoursLater.Spongebob
"Well, good work Timmy, you outplayed me during the game, but I am afraid you lose because you are new and didn't paint your army yet. Sorry, I guess Warhammer isn't for you!"
BaconCatBug wrote: "Hi my name is Timmy I made my first small army I haven't been able to afford the paints yet."
"Ok Timmy let's have a game."
AFewHoursLater.Spongebob
"Well, good work Timmy, you outplayed me during the game, but I am afraid you lose because you are new and didn't paint your army yet. Sorry, I guess Warhammer isn't for you!"
And this is one of those reasons why you shouldn't be taking new players through their first games, BCB.
As an unrelated aside, do you believe the fix to Assault weapons means they'll work properly in 9th without crashing the game?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/07/07 19:23:08
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
FWIW I expect very few of my games to actually use the rule. Personally I don't care either way, but if my opponent wants to use it, I'm cool with that. Casual is fun. So is power gaming. So is playing very technically and 'by the book'. For me it's all just an excuse to throw dice.
But I do enjoy how the rule functions as an extra carrot on a stick for power gamers who refuse to paint their armies. Of course I will gladly waive the rule if we're playing a game together and they feel it's inappropriate.
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2020/07/07 19:23:29
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
BaconCatBug wrote: "Hi my name is Timmy I made my first small army I haven't been able to afford the paints yet."
"Ok Timmy let's have a game."
AFewHoursLater.Spongebob
"Well, good work Timmy, you outplayed me during the game, but I am afraid you lose because you are new and didn't paint your army yet. Sorry, I guess Warhammer isn't for you!"
Old argument. TFGs gonna TFG.
Following the rules is being TFG now?
Because this isn't some minor, "technically it doesn't work that way" rule. This is a very plain and clear rule with no wiggle room.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/07/07 19:26:16
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
BaconCatBug wrote: "Hi my name is Timmy I made my first small army I haven't been able to afford the paints yet."
"Ok Timmy let's have a game."
AFewHoursLater.Spongebob
"Well, good work Timmy, you outplayed me during the game, but I am afraid you lose because you are new and didn't paint your army yet. Sorry, I guess Warhammer isn't for you!"
Old argument. TFGs gonna TFG.
Following the rules is being TFG now?
Because this isn't some minor, "technically it doesn't work that way" rule. This is a very plain and clear rule with no wiggle room.
Yes in the same way bringing the top tournament list against Timmy in his first game would be a TFG move despite it being "allowed in the rules". If you really can't tell the difference you should do the hobby a favor and steer new player towards other people in your club
2020/07/07 19:29:26
Subject: Will you use the '+10 VPs if your whole army is painted' rule?
BaconCatBug wrote: "Hi my name is Timmy I made my first small army I haven't been able to afford the paints yet."
"Ok Timmy let's have a game."
AFewHoursLater.Spongebob
"Well, good work Timmy, you outplayed me during the game, but I am afraid you lose because you are new and didn't paint your army yet. Sorry, I guess Warhammer isn't for you!"
Old argument. TFGs gonna TFG.
Following the rules is being TFG now?
Because this isn't some minor, "technically it doesn't work that way" rule. This is a very plain and clear rule with no wiggle room.
Yes in the same way bringing the top tournament list against Timmy in his first game would be a TFG move despite it being "allowed in the rules". If you really can't tell the difference you should do the hobby a favor and steer new player towards other people in your club
Except there's no rule that states you MUST bring top level lists. This is a binary "Yes/no" for paint.
Additionally, while TFGs will be jerks no matter what, why give them more ammo?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
