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Can this be elaborated on? I've seen this mentioned a few times now and I'd like to know what's up.
Also I have a ton of Rhinos.
The others have summed it up quite nicely. Also, it doesn't have to be a Rhino. Anything that can deliver troops upfield quickly on turn 1 is going to be critical. Impulsors became MVPS in the larger games we played, and even the Dune Rider mechanicus transport was great. The key is running onto those objectives FAST. Like I said, Alpha Strike is harder, but claiming 2 or 3 objectives on your first player turn, and then having a unit in your opponent's face to disrupt right away on that same turn is going to be really hard to beat the way these missions are currently being scored.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Can this be elaborated on? I've seen this mentioned a few times now and I'd like to know what's up.
Also I have a ton of Rhinos.
The others have summed it up quite nicely. Also, it doesn't have to be a Rhino. Anything that can deliver troops upfield quickly on turn 1 is going to be critical. Impulsors became MVPS in the larger games we played, and even the Dune Rider mechanicus transport was great. The key is running onto those objectives FAST. Like I said, Alpha Strike is harder, but claiming 2 or 3 objectives on your first player turn, and then having a unit in your opponent's face to disrupt right away on that same turn is going to be really hard to beat the way these missions are currently being scored.
Righto. Thanks all!
I'm looking forward to bringing my Pods in for objectives, too. They've got the sweet 1st turn drop option.
Spoletta wrote: Considering the new playstyle, it makes sense that the impulsors got quite the hike. They are really good now.
Considering the new playstyle, it makes sense that the impulsors got quite the hike. They are really good now.
Yep. Primaris units in Impulsors were a stand-out in our test games over the weekend. I dread facing a bunch of those loaded w/assault Intercessors and a Chaplain ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Of course, ty. And naturally the Pods mentioned in my previous post.
Hmmmmm ... pods to me are similar to Vindicators. They were so bad for so long I sort of forgot they existed. But to your point, I actually could see the right squad delivered at the right time via drop pod as a pretty could good precaution for when you are forced to go second, and it would still be a really good thing to have if you are going first ... also, I have lots of drop pods ....
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Of course, ty. And naturally the Pods mentioned in my previous post.
Hmmmmm ... pods to me are similar to Vindicators. They were so bad for so long I sort of forgot they existed. But to your point, I actually could see the right squad delivered at the right time via drop pod as a pretty could good precaution for when you are forced to go second, and it would still be a really good thing to have if you are going first ... also, I have lots of drop pods ....
At the moment they have some really nice things going for them.
1: They can drop on the first turn.
2: You can reserve units without spending CP.
3: Stratagems like Forewarning and Auspex Scan only work against the Pods, not the models coming out of them.
Imo they're a good tool to have in your back pocket. Using obscuring terrain to drop units into a protected position while they focus fire on choice targets is going to be a good maneuver, I think. I'm looking forward to trying that out in combination with Reserved Dreadnoughts to serve up some pinpoint supporting fire.
Drop pods aren't nearly as problematic as impulsors in 9th's mission design. Drop pods are only good if you go first; if you go second they don't get you onto objectives because of the DS restrictions.
Impulsors, meanwhile, will get you 6 ob-sec primaris onto any objective outside the opponent's deployment zone T1, and you're going first, will also allow you to block off the objective with a model that has a massive footprint and a -2 to be charged.
I think this game is a good example of how 9th differs from 8th. The mission is the most important thing, get caught up on killing your opponent at the expense of the mission and you'll have a tough time.
very nice models, but is that one scary shoting gallery or what?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Yeah but weird seeing it - one side utterly wiped off the board but winning by a fair margin
It's gonna get weird for a while. That's all I can say. We noticed this and other odd things that seemed to be magnified the more points we played. Obviously didn't play nearly enough games over the weekend to make any kind of definitive statement, but based on the 7/8 I did play, 9th actually feels a lot better at much smaller levels.
850 felt MUCH better than 1850 (keeping in mind this was 8th ed points to try and represent the estimated 1000 and 2000 point levels of 9th).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 20:35:16
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
If you take a bad list, pick bad secondaries for it, and then play badly with it, you're going to lose, whether it's 8th or 9th. Not mean to be an attack on the guy - it's a new edition, probably his first game, and a lot of people learn by doing - just stating facts. It doesn't illustrate anything other than that playing badly loses you games.
The issue with going first is it makes it too easy to take control of the primary. That guy went first and only moved onto a single objective. He literally lost the game in his first movement phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 20:38:54
yukishiro1 wrote: If you take a bad list, pick bad secondaries for it, and then play badly with it, you're going to lose, whether it's 8th or 9th. Not mean to be an attack on the guy - it's a new edition, probably his first game, and a lot of people learn by doing - just stating facts. It doesn't illustrate anything other than that playing badly loses you games.
The issue with going first is it makes it too easy to take control of the primary. That guy went first and only moved onto a single objective. He literally lost the game in his first movement phase.
The demonstration was that his army was not built well to accomplish any other secondaries. Nor could he be very mobile, because he had so few models and needed those rerolls.
It could wind up being he has more secondary choices in the tournament pack, but he's still going to struggle getting across the table. It ITC he would have wiped the floor as he scored Kill & Kill More while the Eldar's ability to kill anything at all dropped pretty sharply.
No. They come pouring from the sky in Dreadclaws and with jump packs and teleporters.
Unfortunately though, no longer in a Karybdis.
Real infantry digs in for the last stand or drops out with a parachute 2.0 into the flakfire. O7,
rip vraksians and elysians.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
yukishiro1 wrote: If you take a bad list, pick bad secondaries for it, and then play badly with it, you're going to lose, whether it's 8th or 9th. Not mean to be an attack on the guy - it's a new edition, probably his first game, and a lot of people learn by doing - just stating facts. It doesn't illustrate anything other than that playing badly loses you games.
The issue with going first is it makes it too easy to take control of the primary. That guy went first and only moved onto a single objective. He literally lost the game in his first movement phase.
He could have maxed his secondaries and he would still have lost. He should have dropped the inceptors much more aggressively into the opponent area to start reclaiming some points. They would have been assaulted and killed by the characters, but he would have stopped the pyschic ritual.
catbarf wrote: Edit: Oh yeah, I really noticed that the comparative lack of Overwatch makes melee more useful as a generalist tool. I couldn't trap anything in melee, but once I baited out Overwatch then I was free to throw small units of Termagants or Rippers into strong shooting units to shut them down for a turn. The feeling of shooting getting to double-dip against melee has been greatly diminished. I'm still not convinced that melee specialists are really going to work better than under 8th, but charging shooting units doesn't feel quite so suicidal. I expect that to revert once GW starts handing out free Overwatch to anyone and everyone, as they are sure to do.
I'd echo this.
I also think the loss of being able to shoot after fallback on flyers is significant. Yes some models can shoot while engaged with Big Guns etc - but having to shoot what you are engaged with (potentially with a penalty) or fly off to position where you want but give up your shooting phase is a blow.
Not sure if this is something that will be meta'd out as people learn new lists - but it makes assault feel like a useful tool, rather than often a way just to lose a load of blokes to overwatch, do very little, and then watch the enemy buzz off without consequence.
I wonder if changing it so the player going second scores the primary on turn 5 at the end of his go, rather than the beginning, might help balance it better?
At the moment the player who goes first gets the opportunity to move into position and establish board control. If they're durable enough they can get a big advantage.
But if the player going second has a hail mary opportunity on turn five to clear and stand on as many objectives as possible it could help counter the going first advantage. Or it could be worthless or it could be overpowered, but I'd be interested to play a few games to try it out.
played a set of games tonight with my Black Legion with the new points values vs ultramarines.
IMHO, raptors are WAY better than they get credit. that smaller table, plus warptime means that when you deliver, you will be able to stop things from getting to where they need to go. Tarpitting has value now, I was able to get on top (since i went first) of a repulsor loaded with intercessors, and I was able to stop them from running onto the objective. It was a bit suicidal, but they did do some casualties before dying out completely on his second turn. By that point, it was uphill for him, because he needed to kick me off of two objectives and he had some really tough decisions to make about where to dedicate his firepower. Like he always does, he clawed back from being behind the ball on it, but it wasn't easy for him.
In the second game, I went second (we rotate back and forth when testing) with the same lists, and while he was on top of two objectives on top of one, I was able to clear one of them off, with some supporting fire from my Havocs, I was able to clean up the impulsor and the 6 man unit inside.
CSM squads in rhinos were good for me. In fact, id wager that there are going to be several units that probably weren't looked at favorably and now they are going to be seeing a little bit of table time. I know for me, raptors were really surprising. All of that mobility was really powerful on a table with good terrain.
One thing that I am going to have to get used too is how finicky deep strike can be on a table that is so much smaller. My obliterators really wanted to come on the table in a few spots, but the spacing was just a bit too tight, and I didn't register how small the table was, or how easily you can screen out deepstrikers with the smaller table.
2 more games, 2 more losses to add to the pile, but no game ended in tabling, and no game ended with one person just dramatically blowing away their opponent on points. I will offer that my opponent is a better player than I am, so the outcome wasn't surprising, but certainly, they were fun games to play.
Most importantly, at no point did I feel like I just was completely outclassed, or didn't have a chance, even with my army made of units that are commonly considered "poor". Now, I was outplayed by my opponent, but our games are typically close and we both acknowledged that there were things I could have done differently that could have shifted the game in any given direction.
9th edition is shaping up really nicely. So far I am having a LOT of fun with it, and i hope you all are too!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 05:33:42
Seabass wrote: I went second (we rotate back and forth when testing) with the same lists
Hah! I insist on going second to measure the "first turn impact". Have you guys ever tried switching armies?
One thing that I am going to have to get used too is how finicky deep strike can be on a table that is so much smaller.
For sure. Reserves have been especially hard to use in a fashion that I'd like. What happens is the fight on the objectives is so intense I have little room to free up fire power to make a hole. That's likely why jump units feel so strong - they can at least get when you need to go.
we both acknowledged that there were things I could have done differently that could have shifted the game in any given direction.
We always debrief each other at the end, too. Win or lose if you can't walk away without acknowledging what you could do better then you've done it wrong.
This time with the updated points. First off, I need to amend an earlier statement - somewhere on Dakka (maybe this thread, I don't recall) I said something like "Morale phase can take longer but at least 5 man UM squads are no longer essentially immune to it". Ooops. Suffice it to say we played it wrong. They are still immune and the Morale phase is still pretty pointless. It's just friendlier to hordes now.
This time around I played my Death Guard and my Mechanicus. Mechanicus are going to be TOUGH in this edition. They can do everything the edition demands of them and they can do it easily. A Manipulus in my backfield supporting 1 or 2 Destroyer squads essentially meant that, on the new table sizes, if I could see it, I could hit it. Hard.
Kept a Rust Stalker squad in reserve in case anything went after that using reserves or deepstrike and my other units went after objectives. Our units are still paper thin, but we have a lot of them, and we're one of the few armies that can reliably shoot someone off an objective from a distance while another unit runs up to claim that objective. Also, the strat for the Archeopter Fulisave - the Seismic Bomb, that's pretty clutch this edition. If we stick with 9th (we're still debating on holding off to see how the dust settles), I can see myself getting a second one.
For my Death Guard - Essentially ran the same battle plan as my Tsons. Only it was PMs in Rhinos since DG can't "teleport" like Rubrics can. Ran two seperate squads to objectives in Rhinos and camped on them. Brought Plague Bearers in turn 2. Used "Raise the Banners" for a secondary. Pretty strong.
Over all 9th still feels weird at bigger sizes and we can't, as a group figure out why. The missions need some edits to how they're scored and the secondaries, while sometimes fun, don't really help all that much if you end up going second against an army that can claim and hold objectives quickly. Next time we play, we're going to try 9th ed rules using some ITC missions and some of our favorites from the 2019 CA to see if that helps. We're not quite "sold" on it.
I think, to me, it maybe feels too much like 8th but with changes that were made to simply make changes. They don't really address a lot of the issues 8th had, and the points adjustment was, well, typical GW I suppose. Actually, that sums a lot of this up really well so far. Classic GW as in "Some cool ideas here but sloppy execution".
It's not bad per say, and it's certainly WAY better than the complete train wreck I expected (happy to have been wrong on that), but it also misses the mark in a lot of places they were trying to fix but seemingly didn't. Meh. Maybe when the real 9th ed codexes come out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 13:43:18
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Honestly they just need to get rid of any farce that is a morale system altogether. Putting a rule in that has little to no effect is largely a waste IMO.
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
