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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AKA they're unreliable and you just won't admit it.

Also for the record I'm sure nobody would care if some Psyker powers were auto cast since some are that terrible to begin with.

3+ is not unreliable. SM players just have things too easy and they won't admit. They even want things to be easier. Try to play armies that rely on fishing 5s or 6s.

Some psychic power are terrible, but psykers are not. We could agree that weaker psychic powers that no-one uses could work automatically but auto casting any psychic power is just a terrible game design just like auto casting litanies.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AKA they're unreliable and you just won't admit it.

Also for the record I'm sure nobody would care if some Psyker powers were auto cast since some are that terrible to begin with.

3+ is not unreliable. SM players just have things too easy and they won't admit. They even want things to be easier. Try to play armies that rely on fishing 5s or 6s.

Some psychic power are terrible, but psykers are not. We could agree that weaker psychic powers that no-one uses could work automatically but auto casting any psychic power is just a terrible game design just like auto casting litanies.

3+ on a 80+ point HQ is unreliable, whether you want to admit it or not especially when other HQs (outside Marines too, you seem to forget) get automatic abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also they automatically had reroll all melee hits as an ability before but it wasn't broken so there ya go.

 Blackie wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

I just don't see what the die roll to see if the buff works is meant to represent or accomplish. It feels like rolling for the sake of rolling. Do you feel like litanies are overpowered if they don't have a chance of failing?

Because things don't work automatically, no matter how skilled people are. There's always some chance to fail, especially in a dice rolling based game.

Eh. That's not really true in game terms though, right? Doing basic movement doesn't require a die roll. Neither does splitting fire or picking up the relic. Units can arrive from deepstrike without rolling these days. A space marine captain is improving the performance of his brothers through some combination of issuing commands and being inspiring, but he's consistently able to do those things. Why is the chaplain's ability to be inspiring so hit or miss?

Some things in 40k have a chance of failing and some don't. What is the point of making inspiration a thing that has a chance to fail? And if we do make it so that all auras have a chance of failing, what does that add to the game, and what does it represent narratively? I can sort of buy that marines fight better near a chaplain. I have a tougher time suspending my disbelief when the chaplain's ability to be inspiring is so hot and cold over the courses of a few seconds.

And yes, I think they'd be overpowered since they're basically very strong aura bonus. Maybe I'm too used to ork standards, where auras are very small buffs compared to imperium ones.

I could be convinced that always-on litanies are too powerful. However, I'm skeptical that randomly failing litanies is a good balancing tool if that's the case. If a litany is considered overpowered, then simply saying, "but sometimes it just doesn't go off," seems like a poor way of limiting its power. I'd much rather pay an appropriate number of points to have it always on or else maybe make llitanies have a limited number of uses (but no chance of failure).

I kind of like where chaplains are currently, but I don't see a lot of inherit merit to the die roll for litanies..

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AKA they're unreliable and you just won't admit it.

Also for the record I'm sure nobody would care if some Psyker powers were auto cast since some are that terrible to begin with.

3+ is not unreliable. SM players just have things too easy and they won't admit. They even want things to be easier. Try to play armies that rely on fishing 5s or 6s.

Some psychic power are terrible, but psykers are not. We could agree that weaker psychic powers that no-one uses could work automatically but auto casting any psychic power is just a terrible game design just like auto casting litanies.

3+ on a 80+ point HQ is unreliable, whether you want to admit it or not especially when other HQs (outside Marines too, you seem to forget) get automatic abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also they automatically had reroll all melee hits as an ability before but it wasn't broken so there ya go.

For 80 pts and the stats, I think a 4+ activation would be more fair. Especially for how nasty some of the buffs are.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AKA they're unreliable and you just won't admit it.

Also for the record I'm sure nobody would care if some Psyker powers were auto cast since some are that terrible to begin with.

3+ is not unreliable. SM players just have things too easy and they won't admit. They even want things to be easier. Try to play armies that rely on fishing 5s or 6s.

Some psychic power are terrible, but psykers are not. We could agree that weaker psychic powers that no-one uses could work automatically but auto casting any psychic power is just a terrible game design just like auto casting litanies.

3+ on a 80+ point HQ is unreliable, whether you want to admit it or not especially when other HQs (outside Marines too, you seem to forget) get automatic abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also they automatically had reroll all melee hits as an ability before but it wasn't broken so there ya go.

For 80 pts and the stats, I think a 4+ activation would be more fair. Especially for how nasty some of the buffs are.

Oh please, what's too powerful?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe this should be its own thread, but would it be crazy to have psychic powers always go off by default? You could do an opposed psychic test if your opponent opts to try and deny one of them.

I quite like the Warmachine/Hordes system, wherein any spell that targets a friendly unit goes off automatically, but powers targeting enemy units have to roll to hit. Maybe something along those lines?

Though, to be honest, I really don't know what to do with the 40k psychic phase. As it, it's just about functional but there's absolutely no depth to it.

It seems like something in dire need of either a limited resource (e.g. if casting psychic powers required CPs*) or else some more options - like psykers getting a number of psychic dice equal to 2x the number of powers they can cast, and being able to distribute them however you want (so that you can throw 3+ dice at a single power, or just 1 if you want). Just something to give you some more options or have actual reasons to not just cast as many powers as you possible can.

*Before anyone says it, yes, I'm well aware that having psykers use CP to cast wouldn't work with the current format. I'm just trying to get across the general idea of psykers using a key resource to cast. As it stands, the psychic phase basically stands alone - so you might as well cast as many powers as you can because doing so doesn't diminish anything else you can do.

Am I making sense?


Going back to the topic, I'd prefer a Ld test to a d6 roll. Even if you set it up to effectively work on a 3+, there are at least some abilities that actually interact with Ld - so you can try to pump up a model's Ld to give yourself the best chance of getting the power off, or as an opponent you can reduce the model's Ld to try and stop the power from going off. It's not huge, but it at least allows the possibility for interactivity with this power.

Just because orders are effectively OP for no points cost doesn't mean we should add more problems to the game like 100% litanies.

Chaplains at 80ish points are already a bargain, if their statlines and abilities were on a unit in any xenos faction they would be 100+pts.

blaktoof wrote:
Just because orders are effectively OP for no points cost doesn't mean we should add more problems to the game like 100% litanies.

Chaplains at 80ish points are already a bargain, if their statlines and abilities were on a unit in any xenos faction they would be 100+pts.

They really wouldn't be. Necron Overlords as of current give +1 to advancing, charging, and hitting for the cost of around 80ish points. That's a LOT of bonuses to be given out automatically and pretty on par with being a lesser version of combined Litanies.

The units the Overlord buffs aren't very good though, so maybe that's the problem some of you have? The Marine codex is over the top with Doctrines and that's the problem in reality?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Just because orders are effectively OP for no points cost doesn't mean we should add more problems to the game like 100% litanies.

Chaplains at 80ish points are already a bargain, if their statlines and abilities were on a unit in any xenos faction they would be 100+pts.

They really wouldn't be. Necron Overlords as of current give +1 to advancing, charging, and hitting for the cost of around 80ish points. That's a LOT of bonuses to be given out automatically and pretty on par with being a lesser version of combined Litanies.

The units the Overlord buffs aren't very good though, so maybe that's the problem some of you have? The Marine codex is over the top with Doctrines and that's the problem in reality?

Yes they really would be.

The overlord a MWBD ability you are already calling lesser, so you are aware litanies are better. Additionally the overlord is 90pts, more expensive than both the chaplain and primaris chaplain. Maybe if litanies were lesser than they are now in rules effect and you only got 1 per chaplain and the chaplain went up 10pts I would see what you are saying, but I guess I dont because those aren't how it is.

I think the problem people have with marines is they are kind of a Mary Sue kitten codex wherein everything can be rerolled or modified rolls to make whatever you want to happen as a dice outcome to happen ontop of generally having easy to achieve rolls for the likely the lowest cost/efficiency per model for almost every model in the game. And then ontop of that they got a bunch of layered rules and stratagems that are free and stack with what they normally get whereas most other factions have to give up option A to take option B- marines get to take option A+B+and some Choi ez from C which no one else gets.

It's kind of similar to watching spoiled children cry about not getting everything they want in a store Everytime they go into any store because they are not happy they get a few things they want from every store Everytime they go in.

Some SM players can't see how powerful chaplains are for their points because they play mono shooting armies, while that unit buffs CC mostly. Now that 9th edition encourages pushing towards the centre I see melee units, even SM ones, becoming very useful and the chaplain could find some purpose even for those chapters that aren't tipycally melee oriented.

With SW their chaplains make units with Hammers (who said Wulfen?) way better even if they work "only" on 3+, they could also heal multiwounds models for free, and there are plenty of units that could benefit from that ability like TWC, Wulfen, WG bikers, WG terminators, etc.

In fact at 80 pts they're the cheapest HQ in the entire roster, and even if their litany doesn't work the units they buff can still do their job. They used to work for free, right, but now they know multiple powers.

Since the SW codex dropped a couple of years ago I haven't played a single game without a Wolf Priest.

For those who don't rate 66% as viable think about orks: we have one combo that is universally considered competitive which is jumping stuff and assaulting. Now if the unit is Evil Sunz charges are succesful at 72%, not very distant from 66% and many players still use the same combo with other klans which means only 58%. Still considered solid despite failiing the charge is ten times more catastrophic than fighting without the chaplain's litany.

Personally, I'm not making the argument that chaplains are underpowered as they are or that they wouldn't need a price hike if their powers went off reliably. I'm making the argument that we could cut down on dice rolling and remove a source of fluff-crunch disparity by making litanies go off automatically. Points could be adjusted as needed.

Similarly, psykers succesfully casting powers unless their warpcraft is directly opposed in some way would speed up the game and arguably be truer to the fluff.


If litanies are so powerful that they're OP if they go off automatically, is a 1 in 3 (or whatever) chance of randomly failing the litany test really the best way of addressing that issue?


Without getting too far into the weeds, I like the idea of labeling many buffs as "command" abilities and changing morale such that units that fail morale can't benefit from morale abilities temporarily. Litanies would be a prime example of "command abilities" that could be countered by forcing units to fail morale.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Without getting too far into the weeds, I like the idea of labeling many buffs as "command" abilities and changing morale such that units that fail morale can't benefit from morale abilities temporarily. Litanies would be a prime example of "command abilities" that could be countered by forcing units to fail morale.

Gw design team: "Yes this post right here officer, suggesting mechanics not requiring a dice roll and even hinting at a meaningful morale system. Made us throw up in our mouths a little, it did!"

I like having game elements not be purely deterministic. But I don't like having those random abilities be once-per-turn, because then you can't take redundancies.

A lascannon might hit, or it might not. One lascannon is swingy. So I take four, and get more bell-curve-like results.

I can Deep Strike in a single unit of melee troops and hope that they make the charge. Or I can allocate the points to Deep Strike in two of them, and have a much better chance.

I can take one Guard officer to give orders to two squads. Or I can take 'extra' officers, so that if I lose any I still have order coverage. That's my choice.

What I can't do is take extra psykers so that if the first one fails to cast a critical spell, another can try to make up for it. One-and-done. The only redundancy you can build into your psychic powers is to try to make them as unessential as possible, so that a failure doesn't screw you over.

Imagine if you had to roll to see if your chapter master gives out a reroll aura for the turn, or if an officer can give out orders for the turn. Would that really add anything to the game? I don't think so. I'd prefer if these buff abilities were automatic, or at the very least could be attempted multiple times. Only being able to choose one litany or one psychic power is the opportunity cost, just as Guard officers can only pick one order to issue to a unit. Buff abilities rarely eliminate the chance of failure altogether; you can give a unit the ability to re-roll 1s and still have it come up all 2s, or give a unit the ability to charge after advancing and still have it whiff the charge- it feels like double jeopardy to have to roll to see if you get the buff to begin with.

We like different things. Yes, I do wish auras weren't automatic too but resolved with a roll or removed completely except maybe a few defensive ones.

Orders on guards definitely shouldn't be automatic. Deep striking stuff should be extremely limited as well. That's my opinion though.

If I jump a squad of boyz and fail the charge I cannot attempt to do it a second time in the same turn, and that it's fine because it makes the combo not overpowered. Still used and abused by ork players, unreliable as it is.

And a chaplain only provides some buff, powerful sure, but the unit is buffing perfectly works even without that aura. It's no big deal to fail that roll sometimes. No good players should rely on a single character's aura.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Without getting too far into the weeds, I like the idea of labeling many buffs as "command" abilities and changing morale such that units that fail morale can't benefit from morale abilities temporarily. Litanies would be a prime example of "command abilities" that could be countered by forcing units to fail morale.

Gw design team: "Yes this post right here officer, suggesting mechanics not requiring a dice roll and even hinting at a meaningful morale system. Made us throw up in our mouths a little, it did!"

You made my day. Thanks!

I think this is only really coming up because 9th doesn't allow command rerolls on Litanies.

blaktoof wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Just because orders are effectively OP for no points cost doesn't mean we should add more problems to the game like 100% litanies.

Chaplains at 80ish points are already a bargain, if their statlines and abilities were on a unit in any xenos faction they would be 100+pts.

They really wouldn't be. Necron Overlords as of current give +1 to advancing, charging, and hitting for the cost of around 80ish points. That's a LOT of bonuses to be given out automatically and pretty on par with being a lesser version of combined Litanies.

The units the Overlord buffs aren't very good though, so maybe that's the problem some of you have? The Marine codex is over the top with Doctrines and that's the problem in reality?

Yes they really would be.

The overlord a MWBD ability you are already calling lesser, so you are aware litanies are better. Additionally the overlord is 90pts, more expensive than both the chaplain and primaris chaplain. Maybe if litanies were lesser than they are now in rules effect and you only got 1 per chaplain and the chaplain went up 10pts I would see what you are saying, but I guess I dont because those aren't how it is.

I think the problem people have with marines is they are kind of a Mary Sue kitten codex wherein everything can be rerolled or modified rolls to make whatever you want to happen as a dice outcome to happen ontop of generally having easy to achieve rolls for the likely the lowest cost/efficiency per model for almost every model in the game. And then ontop of that they got a bunch of layered rules and stratagems that are free and stack with what they normally get whereas most other factions have to give up option A to take option B- marines get to take option A+B+and some Choi ez from C which no one else gets.

It's kind of similar to watching spoiled children cry about not getting everything they want in a store Everytime they go into any store because they are not happy they get a few things they want from every store Everytime they go in.

I didn't say it was lesser. I said it was a combined version of lesser Litanies. 1+1=2. MWBD as of current is a combined version of Focus (+1 to hit, and not just for shooting) and Hate (bonus to charge roll, slightly lesser). This goes off 100% of the time, but you aren't complaining. That's partly because of what you said: the codex is better than Necrons. However that doesn't make it any less inconsistent for an already expensive HQ to be unreliable when you can just go the Captain or Lt. route and call it a day.

Forget that Marines have Doctrines and all that garbage. Does it make sense Chaplains, and hell even Dark Apostles, need to roll to get their effect off (one of which used to be automatic) when other non-Psyker HQs don't need to do the same?

 Blackie wrote:

Orders on guards definitely shouldn't be automatic.

NOPE. We've only had automatic Orders for an edition. Leave us be!

Real talk though...
People don't recognize the actual restrictive nature of Orders because they only tend to work off of what they've seen be effective.
Orders are 6" for Voice of Command. To get more range, you need to get Warlord Traits or camp up with Vox-Casters within 3"...and even then, a Vox-Caster just increases the range to another unit with a Vox-Caster to 18" instead of it being the 6" or whatever the Warlord Trait version is.
An HQ choice Officer gets 2 Orders a turn(Creed gets 3), Elite choice gets 1 Order a turn.
Tank Commanders can only issue Orders to Leman Russes, can never issue an Order to an infantry unit.
Once an Order is issued to someone, they cannot get another Order during your turn. There's a few ways to skirt around this(Warlord Trait for the Cadians and a Relic), but in general you will never get an Order affecting more than one unit at a time.
Tempestor Primes cannot Order <Regiment> units and <Regiment> units cannot Order Militarum Tempestus units. Nobody can currently give Orders to Auxilia such as Bullgryn/Ogryn.
The Chimera's Command Vehicle rule was stripped out to put in as a Stratagem yet the points are still baked in for the Vox-Caster it used to have.

Primes being stuck with Scions isn't some weakness, it is a feature.

It is a weakness in the sense that you can't be passing orders between. Its a feature in that it unlocks 3 extra command squads in a mixed army, which can be sort of sweet for alpha strike valkyrie pileout shenanigans on turn 1. like
hmmm. This inspires an army ! I may get to relive my old elysian dreams and caviar days again after all.

The resource you spend is the points to get the buffing unit.

3+ is a lot more reliable than a 7+ on a 2d6 on a psychic test with the added danger of blowing yourself up in the process...

I get that you are not happy about marines just not being able to fulfill their role as the faction that destroys all and everything 100% all of the time and curb stomp everything 100% of time any way they want with ease.. but... you know.

Think about it from a perspective that some armies relying on a 7+ single roll on a single unit gimmick as a make or break ENTIRE build startegy..

You can like you know.. just reroll all the shooting instead.. and still beat up most things in CC without the litany.

 Argive wrote:
The resource you spend is the points to get the buffing unit.

3+ is a lot more reliable than a 7+ on a 2d6 on a psychic test with the added danger of blowing yourself up in the process...

I get that you are not happy about marines just not being able to fulfill their role as the faction that destroys all and everything 100% all of the time and curb stomp everything 100% of time any way they want with ease.. but... you know.

Think about it from a perspective that some armies relying on a 7+ single roll on a single unit gimmick as a make or break ENTIRE build startegy..

You can like you know.. just reroll all the shooting instead.. and still beat up most things in CC without the litany.

Except the Psyker powers are typically Mortal wounds or other shenanigans VERY unavailable to the rest of the buffing HQs. Chaplains and Apostles (oh look you ignored them because you wanted to make it about Loyalists to try and prove a point, EVEN THOUGH I explicitly mentioned them) don't provide much you can't already get, especially with the way 9th is looking to shape up.
Also nobody really took up the question of how many other non-Psyker HQs need to roll to actually do their thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primes being stuck with Scions isn't some weakness, it is a feature.

One does not preclude the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
It is a weakness in the sense that you can't be passing orders between. Its a feature in that it unlocks 3 extra command squads in a mixed army, which can be sort of sweet for alpha strike valkyrie pileout shenanigans on turn 1. like
hmmm. This inspires an army ! I may get to relive my old elysian dreams and caviar days again after all.

Command Squads use up slots, they aren't free.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
The resource you spend is the points to get the buffing unit.

3+ is a lot more reliable than a 7+ on a 2d6 on a psychic test with the added danger of blowing yourself up in the process...

I get that you are not happy about marines just not being able to fulfill their role as the faction that destroys all and everything 100% all of the time and curb stomp everything 100% of time any way they want with ease.. but... you know.

Think about it from a perspective that some armies relying on a 7+ single roll on a single unit gimmick as a make or break ENTIRE build startegy..

You can like you know.. just reroll all the shooting instead.. and still beat up most things in CC without the litany.

Except the Psyker powers are typically Mortal wounds or other shenanigans VERY unavailable to the rest of the buffing HQs. Chaplains and Apostles (oh look you ignored them because you wanted to make it about Loyalists to try and prove a point, EVEN THOUGH I explicitly mentioned them) don't provide much you can't already get, especially with the way 9th is looking to shape up.
Also nobody really took up the question of how many other non-Psyker HQs need to roll to actually do their thing.

Then take other HQ or librarians/sorcerers instead of the chaplain if they are so much better.. Its almost like... you just cant have everything your way and have to make choices.. Shocker...

The point is you get the litanies on top of EVERYTHING else you get just for for being marines, which makes the litanies look crappy, because you get everything else already. which in turn makes litanies look crappy..

 Argive wrote:

I get that you are not happy about marines just not being able to fulfill their role as the faction that destroys all and everything 100% all of the time and curb stomp everything 100% of time any way they want with ease.. but... you know.

Think about it from a perspective that some armies relying on a 7+ single roll on a single unit gimmick as a make or break ENTIRE build startegy..

You can like you know.. just reroll all the shooting instead.. and still beat up most things in CC without the litany.

I feel like some posters in this thread are being quite disingenuous. Personally, my various eldar armies see way more play than my marines (who see about as much play as my necrons and chaos). I'm not really a space marine fanboy, and I certainly don't want my marines to run around clobbering my pals without contest. BUT. I do think there are some valid reasons to consider making litanies automatic. By doing so, we...

* Remove an unnecessary die roll.

* Remove a rule that creates wonky fluff situations (see above about marines running hot and cold every couple seconds).

* Reopen a discussion about how to properly balance litanies if they're actually OP rather than just going, "It's okay because sometimes they just don't work."

I don't see a lot of people in this thread arguing that chaplains should get a raw power boost with no other changes or downsides. It is possible to design a version of chaplains whose litanies automatically work and are not OP. In fact, that's what chaplains were for most of 8th. Not everyone entertaining the topic of discussion is a cheese mongering power gamer set on filling their water bottle with the tears of their defeated opponents.

 Argive wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
The resource you spend is the points to get the buffing unit.

3+ is a lot more reliable than a 7+ on a 2d6 on a psychic test with the added danger of blowing yourself up in the process...

I get that you are not happy about marines just not being able to fulfill their role as the faction that destroys all and everything 100% all of the time and curb stomp everything 100% of time any way they want with ease.. but... you know.

Think about it from a perspective that some armies relying on a 7+ single roll on a single unit gimmick as a make or break ENTIRE build startegy..

You can like you know.. just reroll all the shooting instead.. and still beat up most things in CC without the litany.

Except the Psyker powers are typically Mortal wounds or other shenanigans VERY unavailable to the rest of the buffing HQs. Chaplains and Apostles (oh look you ignored them because you wanted to make it about Loyalists to try and prove a point, EVEN THOUGH I explicitly mentioned them) don't provide much you can't already get, especially with the way 9th is looking to shape up.
Also nobody really took up the question of how many other non-Psyker HQs need to roll to actually do their thing.

Then take other HQ or librarians/sorcerers instead of the chaplain if they are so much better.. Its almost like... you just cant have everything your way and have to make choices.. Shocker...

The point is you get the litanies on top of EVERYTHING else you get just for for being marines, which makes the litanies look crappy, because you get everything else already. which in turn makes litanies look crappy..

You're still talking about Marines as though we are still on Chaplains because you hate Marines, we get it. This whole topic applies to Dark Apostles too. This isn't about "making choices" because one is a non-choice already. You STILL have yet to discuss about non-Psyker HQs that have to roll to get off their effects. I've asked this question multiple times and you have deflected it multiple times.

Wyldhunt wrote:


I don't see a lot of people in this thread arguing that chaplains should get a raw power boost with no other changes or downsides. It is possible to design a version of chaplains whose litanies automatically work and are not OP. In fact, that's what chaplains were for most of 8th. Not everyone entertaining the topic of discussion is a cheese mongering power gamer set on filling their water bottle with the tears of their defeated opponents.

You're right. My personal opinion is that I like an 80 points character which is reliable like a psyker, if not even a bit better. I wouldn't want a 120ish points model that is more reliable. I'm not in favor to raise points beyond the current level, that would make lower points games hard to play and the price of a supporting character IMHO is ok if stays within the range of 65-90 points. For the same reason I like 90 points SM psykers, and I'd hate 120-150 points ones that work automatically. I think that a significant amount of randomness should be a part of the game.

I'd accept a 1 CP stratagem that allows a litany to work automatically without rolling that 3+ though. Maybe even a stratagem that allows a chaplain to roll for two litanies, each with its own 3+.

I agree about removing unnecessary dice rolling, but a single dice per turn to determine if the chaplain's power works doesn't slow down the game at all. Re-rolling free auras should be removed completely, that's unnecessary dice rolling.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Argive wrote:

I get that you are not happy about marines just not being able to fulfill their role as the faction that destroys all and everything 100% all of the time and curb stomp everything 100% of time any way they want with ease.. but... you know.

Think about it from a perspective that some armies relying on a 7+ single roll on a single unit gimmick as a make or break ENTIRE build startegy..

You can like you know.. just reroll all the shooting instead.. and still beat up most things in CC without the litany.

I feel like some posters in this thread are being quite disingenuous. Personally, my various eldar armies see way more play than my marines (who see about as much play as my necrons and chaos). I'm not really a space marine fanboy, and I certainly don't want my marines to run around clobbering my pals without contest. BUT. I do think there are some valid reasons to consider making litanies automatic. By doing so, we...

* Remove an unnecessary die roll.

* Remove a rule that creates wonky fluff situations (see above about marines running hot and cold every couple seconds).

* Reopen a discussion about how to properly balance litanies if they're actually OP rather than just going, "It's okay because sometimes they just don't work."

I don't see a lot of people in this thread arguing that chaplains should get a raw power boost with no other changes or downsides. It is possible to design a version of chaplains whose litanies automatically work and are not OP. In fact, that's what chaplains were for most of 8th. Not everyone entertaining the topic of discussion is a cheese mongering power gamer set on filling their water bottle with the tears of their defeated opponents.

And how many games have you lost because you couldn't get guide / doom off in T1/T2 and ended up loosing because that's the only source of re-rolls??

I dotn hate marines.. Im just baffled by the attitude of power armoured players... It just seems like being spoiled for choice and throwing your toys out the pram when you cant have it all. Only marines and chaos have this problem. If people cant get over a rolling a dice, Id say just get rid of litanies all together and give them a crappy near useless static aura of some kind and be done with it.
Ya'll would still have vastly more options then most factions could dream off so don't really care.

They made chapter master a startegem rather than a roll for ability/aura and well we all know how that went down..

I don't think we need more auras personally so rolling for it seems like a good trade off. You either get it or you don't. And if its too unreliable then dont bother with it.. Or you risk v reward and roll the dice.. I just don't see a problem.

It seems like being spoiled for choice and throwing your toys out the pram. Only marines ans chaos have this problem. Id say just get rid of litanies all together and give them a static aura of some kind and be done with it.
Its still more then most factions get..

 Argive wrote:
And how many games have you lost because you couldn't get guide / doom off in T1/T2 and ended up loosing because that's the only source of re-rolls??

One or two, though per my earlier post I think I might like for psychic tests to go off automatically unless they get denied. I'm just not wild about rolls that make cool things randomly not happen. My opponent's sorcerer failing warp time never feels like a big accomplishment on my end; it usually just feels a bit goofy that the sorcerer is failing to do his main job in front of his boss and minions.

I dotn hate marines.. Im just baffled by the attitude of power armoured players... It just seems like being spoiled for choice and throwing your toys out the pram when you cant have it all. Only marines and chaos have this problem. If people cant get over a rolling a dice, Id say just get rid of litanies all together and give them a crappy near useless static aura of some kind and be done with it.
Ya'll would still have vastly more options then most factions could dream off so don't really care.

It sounds like you might hate marine players a little. ;D

They made chapter master a startegem rather than a roll for ability/aura and well we all know how that went down..
I don't think we need more auras personally so rolling for it seems like a good trade off. You either get it or you don't. And if its too unreliable then dont bother with it..

Maybe this is just me, but I don't like "sometimes the power just stops working" as a means of balancing an ability. If a litany is too powerful, then having a 1 in 3 chance of not having the litany on a crucial turn means that opponents will be subjected to an overpowered ability 2/3rds of the time.

Or you risk v reward and roll the dice.. I just don't see a problem.

Personally, I don't think the current chaplain rules are a problem, but I do think they feel a bit odd and have room for improvement.

It seems like being spoiled for choice and throwing your toys out the pram. Only marines ans chaos have this problem. Id say just get rid of litanies all together and give them a static aura of some kind and be done with it.
Its still more then most factions get..

Politely, I sort of feel like you're the one eager to throw litanies away if they don't work the way you prefer. Glancing over the discussion so far, it's basically gone...

* Hey. LItanies are unreliable. What if they were automatic?
* Lots of discussion about preferences and philosophies around abilities that automatically go off in general.
* Some discussion of how litanies compare to an existing automatic buff mechanic: orders.
* Me giving my pitch on repeat like a broken record that everyone is probably sick of. ;D

I don't see any marine players swearing to melt down their chaplains if they don't get automatic litanies. Just discussion over whether or not the proposed change would be beneficial to the game as a whole. Maybe I"m misreading your internet voice, but to me you're coming across as thinking marine players are being WAAC cheesemongers for daring to entertain a suggestion that would buff their chaplains. (And those changes might not even be a net buff if the points increase was sufficiently high).

I think it's reasonable to discuss litanies being automatic. I also think it's reasonable to discuss the phoenix gem, traitor's embrace, or the casting of psychic powers being automatic. If an ork player suggested changing the warp jump dragsta's teleportation rule to go off automatically, we wouldn't jump down their throat for daring to propose a buff to orks, right? We might not support their proposal, or we might feel that it would need to come with a price hike or some other drawback, but we wouldn't call them spoiled and tell them to be happy with the buggie rules they already have. After all, they have more buggies than any other factions do, right?

They also haven't accepted the challenge of naming other non-Psyker HQs that need to roll to get off their aura/buff. I imagine it's a VERY small list.