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Tycho wrote:I don't necessarily think we need any more factions, but I would do it via "Codex Rogue Trader". It would be a sort of "mercenary" codex where you would have some Squats, Zoats, any other popular-at-the-time but long forgotten units out of the original RT book and maybe some units out of other sources. You would give them 40k rules and each unit could have rules for what armies they can be hired out to. You could even use it to encapsulate units like the Gellerpox, and Tau auxilliaries.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I was thinking of them as some kind of Auxillary to add to Imperial armies who really want them.

From a Lore perspective, they could be the diaspora from when Tyrannids ate their homeworlds, fighting to reclaim some part of their lost heritage.

Vaktathi wrote:That said, it'd be neat to get both Imperial and Chaos squats. I'd basically treat them like Knights, where they can be an integral part of Imperial or Chaos armies with some distinct differences.

Yep.

the_scotsman wrote:The problem is, they're imperium.

What role is not filled in an imperium army between the profiles for

Guardsmen
Scions
Sisters
Marines
Primaris marines
Terminators
Ogryns
Gravis
Centurions
Custodes

Initially, I'd just make them PA heavy infantry for filling roles in more specialized lists without having to take another full detachment. Maybe like Devastators but slightly more durable.

You're right that most Imperial factions already have this covered, but Guard could certainly use a not-Ogryn option, NuMarines could use a not-Primaris option, etc.

I'd not re-introduce them.
Look, unpalatable statement here - they weren't popular. A lot of people only know them from the 'grudge' community members have held with GW for near 30yrs for removing an unpopular army form the game (and an army that in the 90's they weren't comfortable producing/designing which should say a lot).

Leave them to be in Blackstone/Necromunda style games. They don't need to be a fully fledged faction

It might seem like a cliché but I would basically use the Kharadron Overlords as the underpinnings of the new Squats (which would be a pejorative term from imperials). They’re an abhuman race of space faring miners who were driven to the brink of extinction and are out for revenge. A combination of space miners and space trawler men.

But I would also empathise that, abhumans aside, they are what mankind would look like had the age of strife never happened. They have tec far beyond anything the imperium has and they fully understand it too. What hinders them is their tiny numbers and lack of resources. So in a subversion of usual dwarf tropes, their equipment should have a rough and recycled look to it.

They also don’t suffer from all the religious superstition that imperials have, being more like cynical realists. But they do have their own version of the Kharadron Code, which is adhered to at all times. And they should unequivocally have robots. Everything from little hover drones right up to automated mining machines.

Their basic troops are like a combination of the Arkanauts and Endrinriggers; armed workers press ganged into combat out of necessity who mostly carry mining and repairing tools as weapons with only ‘side arms’ as actual guns. They come in infantry, jet pack and hover bike variants. They also have a lot of automated help. Then there’s the Grunstok equivalents, mercenary security who do carry proper weaponary.

In another complete subversion of usual dwarf tropes, they do have pyskers. Their own version of navigators. But they’re treated in as scientific manner as possible.

Weaponary? Gravity guns, plasma weaponry, more advanced versions of the mining type gear the genestealer cults use etc. Some artillery manned by the private security types.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I'd not re-introduce them.
Look, unpalatable statement here - they weren't popular. A lot of people only know them from the 'grudge' community members have held with GW for near 30yrs for removing an unpopular army form the game (and an army that in the 90's they weren't comfortable producing/designing which should say a lot).

Leave them to be in Blackstone/Necromunda style games. They don't need to be a fully fledged faction

So, by that logic, GSC, Harelquins and AdMech should never have been re-introduced?

Yeah, feth that noise.

Eldar are very unpopular among non eldar players. And a lot of xeno players hate marines, specialy when the marines have good rules. I guess we should remove those too.

We would practicaly be left with factions no one cares about. Like those rogue trader guys from black stone fortress etc.

 Dysartes wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I'd not re-introduce them.
Look, unpalatable statement here - they weren't popular. A lot of people only know them from the 'grudge' community members have held with GW for near 30yrs for removing an unpopular army form the game (and an army that in the 90's they weren't comfortable producing/designing which should say a lot).

Leave them to be in Blackstone/Necromunda style games. They don't need to be a fully fledged faction

So, by that logic, GSC, Harelquins and AdMech should never have been re-introduced?

Yeah, feth that noise.

AdMech weren't created then removed from the game. Harlequins may not have had an army list but had unit entries for multiple editions between having a full army list (I don't even remember if they did have that in 2nd ed) and getting it back. GSC is the *only* example that rings broadly similar, but GSC were popular enough to bring back in a meaningful way.
Squats? Honestly it's just angry noise from near 30yrs of frustration by people. Most current 40k'ers know them as 'the army that was removed' and that's it.

They're a footnote. Honestly the idea that Squats should come back means that GW would have to stop working on, or kick further down the road, things like T'Au Aux. expansions just so the Imperium players could get another stunty-er power armour faction.

So no, feth Squats.

I would love for a Demiurg Faction that can ally with the Tau Empire.


To make then distinct and with clues from fantasy dworfs (And because they are basically like stone-like dwarfs) their basic profile would be something like

M 4" WS +3 BS +4 S3 T4 W1 A1 L7 SV+4

I believe thats and interesting profile that can be expanded upon to make all thing of industrialised stuff, an aesthetic that has really no replication on 40k. No steampunk (Thats something Admech is capitalizing with cyber horses and davinchi designs), no world war designs (thats imperial guard). Dieselpunk and hard industrial machinery with some sci-fi bits , at the end of the day they would be part of the tau empire faction-block.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I'd not re-introduce them.
Look, unpalatable statement here - they weren't popular. A lot of people only know them from the 'grudge' community members have held with GW for near 30yrs for removing an unpopular army form the game (and an army that in the 90's they weren't comfortable producing/designing which should say a lot).

Leave them to be in Blackstone/Necromunda style games. They don't need to be a fully fledged faction

So, by that logic, GSC, Harelquins and AdMech should never have been re-introduced?

Yeah, feth that noise.

AdMech weren't created then removed from the game. Harlequins may not have had an army list but had unit entries for multiple editions between having a full army list (I don't even remember if they did have that in 2nd ed) and getting it back. GSC is the *only* example that rings broadly similar, but GSC were popular enough to bring back in a meaningful way.
Squats? Honestly it's just angry noise from near 30yrs of frustration by people. Most current 40k'ers know them as 'the army that was removed' and that's it.

They're a footnote. Honestly the idea that Squats should come back means that GW would have to stop working on, or kick further down the road, things like T'Au Aux. expansions just so the Imperium players could get another stunty-er power armour faction.

So no, feth Squats.

This is true but GW is also an expert of creating new armies and making instant fanbases of them. Just look at Age of Sigmar. Hate them or love them but one can't say those armies don't have their appeal to many people. The same for 40k. It doesnt matter what we the fans think, they are paying people to design interesting stuff that will appeal to a wider demographic.

Expanding on the space miner theme and their exile from the Imperium, it would be more realistic if they "discovered" something on one of their mining expeditions. Otherwise, they would barely be a force to reckon with and would die off (like they did basically). However, if they found some sentient race that enhances their capabilities, or even manipulates them, we might have something to work with.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I'd not re-introduce them.
Look, unpalatable statement here - they weren't popular. A lot of people only know them from the 'grudge' community members have held with GW for near 30yrs for removing an unpopular army form the game (and an army that in the 90's they weren't comfortable producing/designing which should say a lot).

Leave them to be in Blackstone/Necromunda style games. They don't need to be a fully fledged faction

So, by that logic, GSC, Harelquins and AdMech should never have been re-introduced?

Yeah, feth that noise.

AdMech weren't created then removed from the game. Harlequins may not have had an army list but had unit entries for multiple editions between having a full army list (I don't even remember if they did have that in 2nd ed) and getting it back. GSC is the *only* example that rings broadly similar, but GSC were popular enough to bring back in a meaningful way.
Squats? Honestly it's just angry noise from near 30yrs of frustration by people. Most current 40k'ers know them as 'the army that was removed' and that's it.

AdMech had unit entries in Codex Imperialis, and featured in the Black Codex - I remember reading about Electro-Priests when I first got into 40k and wanting to pick some up, but not being able to. Mind you, this was also the case for a lot of the Agents of the Imperium at the time - Inquisitors were on their way to being OOP, for another example.

Harlequins had a full army list in Rogue Trader - ah, the Harlequin Land Raiders... - featured in Codex: Eldar and then got their own list in the Citadel Journal. Off the top of my head, they vanished from either Eldar 'dex in 3rd edition, before returning in, what, 5th with a new range?

Squats were popular enough in terms of support that GW banned people for mentioning them on their own forums - GSC never managed to get to that stage. The problems Squats had were a, the faction name; b, thematic elements being farmed off to other factions (thinking IG, SW and Orks here); and c, no-one in the studio willing to go to bat for them. IIRC, GSC only came back because there was someone (or a couple of people) in the studio now who are keen on them.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
They're a footnote. Honestly the idea that Squats should come back means that GW would have to stop working on, or kick further down the road, things like T'Au Aux. expansions just so the Imperium players could get another stunty-er power armour faction.

GW figured out a long time ago that there is more money in making the T'au be "Gundam in 40k" than there is having a coalition of alien auxiliaries supporting them. Why do you think we've not seen anything for that theme since the Vespids, and we've never seen a recut Kroot unit? I think they're wrong, and the faction lost something the moment the Riptide was released, but there you go - the combined arms approach espoused by the Taros FW book, where they used airpower in place of big suits because it was a more efficient use of resources, was far more interesting/different.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
So no, feth Squats.

I'll be polite, and not respond to that how it deserves.

Demiurg are not squats. Demiurg are, based on the little lore and fluff behind them, decidedly not abhuman and very much alien.

But if I was going to bring back the Squats, I would introduce them as Tau allies or basically anything other than a faction of short Imperium dudesmen. Create some fluff about how they have a longstanding feud with ratlings or something and the two are locked in a genocidal grim-dark battle for genetic short-person supremacy.

The squat home worlds were completely barren, no atmosphere, no biome, no nothing. The squats were also not a huge population. So we are expected to believe that the Tyranids successfully munched their way through barren rocks without starving themselves?

Seems like an odd hill to die on - the Tyranids codexes over the years have dozens of fluff depictions of planets devoured by the nids which are little more than barren hollowed out rocks filled with tunnels, etc. "Biomass", to the nids, is anything with organic molecules in it, which includes pretty much anything with carbon and/or hydrogen atoms in it - which includes rock.

I would probably do what GW will do.
Dig through Jes Goodwins notes, find the Demiurge artwork, ask around to see if anyone remembers where the existing prototype sprue of the Demiurge and their monster creature went, put them into production and profit.

As far as in the setting? I would make a meta joke out of it and hire Matt Ward to write the rule book.

Why can't they just show up? Also, why couldn't they have always been there?

I'd kill 2 birds with one stone and bring them back as a T'au Auxiliary force. Update the fluff to say that what few squat survivors there are decided their only chance at survival was fighting for the greater good.

leerm02 wrote:

So there has been a lot of talk about the Squats coming back (which, honestly, is nothing new to this hobby! I think they were probably first speculated to be returning around the time they first disappeared...)

I came up with my own version of how I think that could be accomplished in regards to lore/theme, and you can read the little short-story I wrote about it in the fiction forum (hint: it's DARK), but this post isn't about ME:

How would YOU re-introduce everyone's favorite space-dwarves back into the 40k lore? What happened to them? Where are they now? How have they changed? What is their "theme"?

Obviously this is just for fun, but I'd love to hear everyone's ideas!

By making them myself.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1068635-.html?m=2

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1068634-.html

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I'd not re-introduce them.
Look, unpalatable statement here - they weren't popular. A lot of people only know them from the 'grudge' community members have held with GW for near 30yrs for removing an unpopular army form the game (and an army that in the 90's they weren't comfortable producing/designing which should say a lot).

Leave them to be in Blackstone/Necromunda style games. They don't need to be a fully fledged faction

Squats were very popular. The studio was lazy and didn't feel they could develop them any further. This is why they were dropped from the model line.

When it comes to fluff, I really want Squats to become some sort of Secessionist Empire that is taking revenge on the Imperium because of the way they've been treated.

Picture this: You are a human that evolved, after thousands of years of hard labour in hostile mining-environments, into becoming shorter and stockier. You are persecuted, discriminated and abused by the rest of humanity. They designate you as Abhuman; barely tolerated by the regime and your right of existence is constantly called into question by nobility and figures of authority. They only allow your existence because they have a use for you; mining. People start calling you and others like you names; Stunties, Dwarfs, Squats... anything to denigrate you based upon your stature and long facial hair.

Though still you and your kind endure this. You and your fellows start creating a new culture with a very strong identity and become proud of your genetic evolution. The benefits of said genetics include a knack for technological advancement and a very strong personality; one that is independent and free-thinking. Your kind begins inventing better machines, better vehicles and better equipment; all that would lead to a golden age of commerce and wealth for you and your kin. You start to trade and give these inventions to the rest of humanity; Leviathans, Power Armour, Power Drills are all shared with the wider "not-yet-Imperium". Your kind carves a small yet powerful place within the galaxy; The Squat Empire is born.

And then the Age of Strife happens and all of the Squat Empire is isolated from the rest of humanity. Because you are a Squat, you endure, as you have done so many other hardships.

Then, your kind reconnects with the new Imperium and you expect things to go back to the way things were.

But they don't...

The Imperium has become way more intolerent over the last millenia after the Age of Strife. They still see you as an Abhuman, and one that is very dangerous to the ideals of the Imperium. Why? Because you show potential that elevates you alongside humanity, not beneath it. They start scratching your name out of the books of history. Your technological achievements are now accredited as inventions of the Mechanicus of Mars. Your Empire has to become subservient to the Imperial warmachine. Your kind doesn't like this one bit and just says; " No thanks, we will be fine on our own." You are a proud race, and not one that is going to just kneel before someone just because they've told you to do so.

The Imperium doesn't like this one bit. So they decide to start a campaign to eradicate your empire from the Galaxy. Your planets are Virus Bombed, blockaded and quarantined by ships and vessels you helped create. They start ripping your families apart and spreading many of you away to labour camps or penal colonies far across the Galaxy. When people start asking what happened to you, they say that you were a tragic casualty that got eradicated by Tyrannids. Your kind, its history and its culture becomes forgotten. Your empire is considered extinct.

Yet, you endure, and you bear a very strong Grudge...

Cadia falls, and the entire Galaxy is ripped in twain by huge Warp Storms. This has made the Imperium go into disarray. They order the quarantine of your Homeworlds to cease as those resources are needed elsewhere. They underestimate you and you see this as a moment to rise up once again. You and your fellow Squats begin a major campaign in uniting the rest of your Homeworlds and recreate the once proud and noble Squat empire.

You are a stout Squat of the Squat Empire. You've endured and you will continue to do so. And now, there are grudges to settle with the galactic power that caused all those hardships for millenia. They will answer for their crimes!

I'd bring them back in a revamped Court of the Archon. Squats could be great equipment caddies, or nutritious snacks for a Sslyth, and they wouldn't take up much room in a Venom thus making them the perfect ablative wounds in case of an explosion.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Demiurg are not squats. Demiurg are, based on the little lore and fluff behind them, decidedly not abhuman and very much alien.

But if I was going to bring back the Squats, I would introduce them as Tau allies or basically anything other than a faction of short Imperium dudesmen. Create some fluff about how they have a longstanding feud with ratlings or something and the two are locked in a genocidal grim-dark battle for genetic short-person supremacy.

The squat home worlds were completely barren, no atmosphere, no biome, no nothing. The squats were also not a huge population. So we are expected to believe that the Tyranids successfully munched their way through barren rocks without starving themselves?

Seems like an odd hill to die on - the Tyranids codexes over the years have dozens of fluff depictions of planets devoured by the nids which are little more than barren hollowed out rocks filled with tunnels, etc. "Biomass", to the nids, is anything with organic molecules in it, which includes pretty much anything with carbon and/or hydrogen atoms in it - which includes rock.

It's not equivalent when every planet for thousands of light years is exactly the same. The core is dead, none of the homeworlds had anything other than the squats and their food.

I said it was dumb 20 years ago and I still say it was. It was a cheap cop-out without any real thought into how it would work, being all the more ridiculous for just how unappetizing the entire core is depicted as being. Which comes across as dismissively insulting, using an unsuited explanation to push them aside and then also to make fun of people who wanted them back by just saying nids ate them over and over.


Now they're back like "of course they are, nids can't keep a good squat down...."


And if they're back then all the jokes and flippant commentary about them being eaten will mean nothing because GW will write whatever they want to bring them back and everyone will lap it up like they didn't spend the last 2 decades making fun of people who wanted squats.


They will either have fended off the nids or be ship-based. I don't think the latter makes sense though because the squats are experts at running lifeless rocks into homes so there's be no reason for them to not return to their planets or just settle on new ones

+1 for Demiurg. Think you could do interesting fluff, models and rules. Allows for a phased release over several years as they can be built up to the point you can play them on their own.

I'm afraid I can't see the point of another imperial faction that is essentially reskinned guardsmen and tanks, plus maybe some GSC bikers.

Now "Chaos Dwarfs in Spaaaace" could perhaps be interesting. But also feels kind of dumb.

I'd rather not have them anti-Imperium. They were never part of the Imperium, but there own seperate empire, allied to the Imperium on occasion, but shared common roots. They have/had warp capable empire so they would understand somewhat the Imperiums lack of contact due to the shadow in the warp. That doesn't mean I would make them Imperium friendly, only Imperium neutral. There would be some resentment but not outright hatred.

I would make them hate Tyranids for the same reason they hate Orks. I would make it so they were heavily overrun, but not completely. The thing about their homeworlds is that they were barren rocks before the Tyranids and would be also after Tyranids. I would have them slowly but inevitably reclaim most of their worlds, with heavy Tyranid pockets.

I would modify their original troops with how I think they might develop in a long war with the Tyranids. Maybe twin lasguns for ordinary warriors etc. There vehicles I would start by using base Imperial vehicles and modifying them as well. Keeping in mind that they aren't bound by the same rules as the Mechanicus. They were never part of the Imperium and are not bound by their rules.

I would reinforce that on the table these are proper military units, not civilians weaponizing their tools. Bikers for instance would not be bikers, like "Hells Angels", but be hit and run troops using the same aesthetic as the regular troops.

The only epic vehicles I could see ported over would be the Iron Eagle Attack Gyrocopter and maybe Termites.

Also, very importantly, I would look for a better name than Squats.

Why not just say they've been there all along? Like how Genestealer Cults and the Adeptus Mechanicus always existed. Even if we go with the nommed by nids bit, there could easily be pockets of survivors on colonies, spaceships, or worlds that just by luck were left untouched.

Instead of making a whole new faction, for starters they could be reintroduced as Militarum Auxilia for the Guard. If going biker theme, maybe a fast attack biker unit that has 2 builds, a scout build built around speed and a mobile heavy weapon platform build. Or a single infantry kit that functions like regular guardsmen but have a 4+ save instead of a 5+, slightly higher leadership, and maybe their guns are slightly better in some way - like a s4 lasgun, or can use their rapid fire range at a farther distance, etc. They could even go the Tempestus model and with a combined HQ, Elite, and Troop kit have their own mini faction within Guard with their own doctrines, etc if taken as their own detachment.

For reasoning on rolling them into Guard: fewer kits needed is obvious, and they can be fluffed as units attached to Imperial armies in joint military efforts, or in their weakened state they maybe formally joined the Imperium, etc. Then if they prove popular, or at least popular enough, additional kits could be added.

I do like the idea that Squats would use Artificial Intelligence in robots. I could see that as an elite unit.

An idea I had in 6th edition, back when you bought a squad, then you could buy a transport for it (buy 10 Guardsmen, get the option to get a Chimera). Turn that on it's head. You buy a Squat vehicle, then get the option of filling it with crew.


I second the vote for Squat artillery. Something like a Basilisk sized Thunderfire cannon with half a dozen crew would be neat.

If Eldar are a dying race and can have 5+ save infantry, so can Squats. I see the "Average Joe" squad to be marginally better than a guardsmen, if not quite as good as Tempestus.

Is there a current army that is all about de-buffing the enemy? That could be their schtick. Bonus when charging? nope. Bonus to cover? Nope. +1 to Hit? Forget about it. Want to charge? do it on 3d6 using the lowest 2 dice.

In the end, the answer is: make a bunch of really lovely models and come up with some BS background and crazy rules to help sell them.

Works for everything else :-)

Properly. As tyranid xenomorph hybrids. Squatifex 2020

I think Demiurg would have been the ideal way to do this. But since Squats canonically still exist (see Necromunda) and GSC kinda nabbed the mining equipment, maybe stick to the current fluff of them as the remnants of the old homeworlds.

The squats comprise small pirate fleets, mercenary bands and guild conglomerates roaming through space. A disapora of small enterprises, the remains of the old homeworlds. The sub-factions could represent different styles of enterprise - opportunistic raiders, careful traders, traditionalist mining flotillas.

This means you could have a similar space pirate theme to Kharadron. I like the weirdness of them being a sturdy Imperial equivalent to dark eldar! Bring back powerboards, armoured airships, the iron eagle.

Two options I like;

As Specialists in other armies - possibly alongside Inquisitors and Rogue Traders only, or as Officers of X in Astra Militarum armies.

The Men of Iron angle is an interesting one. Even if it weren't Men or Iron, Abominable Intelligences would be interesting. Making up for their lack of numbers with tech.

I wouldn't and instead focus on non iom factions that have been ignored...

It turns out that Primaris Marines are just two squats in a trenchcoat.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It turns out that Primaris Marines are just two squats in a trenchcoat.

okay, now I'll admit when something is funny....but that was fething hilarious!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It turns out that Primaris Marines are just two squats in a trenchcoat.

Taketh mine exalt , jester.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It turns out that Primaris Marines are just two squats in a trenchcoat.

Yeah, I think you just won the thread with that quip!