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Lammia wrote:
It's been different since 3rd/4th edition in term of who had the numbers...

The nine pages that cover the age of apostasy in the 2nd ed book are condensed to half a page of writing in the 3e book - so it jumps from Thor gathering his forces to the assault on Terra and the jumps again to Thor becoming Ecclesiarch.

In the original longer version Thor gathers his forces, then you get Vandire dissolving the High Lords and ordering attacks on the astartes and Mechanicus which leads to the assault on Terra, Vandire falls, and then the reformation and trial of Thor before he becomes Ecclesiarch (which starts with him refusing to come to Terra until compelled).

But the 8e book does retcon a lot of that.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns.

How is krillian/TSH a debate? Look at the thread topic man. Are SoB equal to Astartes? That's how it's a debate. Who would win in an arm wrestling contest, Gaz or a malnurished guardsman with no arms?

There are silly questions, but this thread takes the cake. Also, 4 SoS took down a squad of enraged Minotaur Primaris. They aren't just pariahs. They are easily the best trained female human warriors in the galaxy. No armor, just weapons, a SoS would not even break a sweat wiping the floor with a SoB. It's that far.

Again, some author somewhere who has nothing to do with the game might have written a book where something like this happens, but it's really meaningless.

SoS squash psykers. SoB are not psykers. Against us, SoS have bolters, swords and flamers, because against us, their pariah gene does exactly nothing.

SoB on the other hand, have a very easy way to get to a place where 1/ They can't fail a save 2/ They can't fail to hit and 3/ They can't fail to wound.

And I really don't care what Black Library says- this is not up for debate. A battle sister will break an SoS every time- especially one with a meltagun, which SoS don't use. Novels are not a reliable source of who is tougher than whom. Novelists don't all play the game, and even if they did, they'll always sacrifice what would happen in the game for the sake of their story.

I like reading this thread, and I try to post to it very rarely because I know that some people just don't get how rules are supposed to govern novels since the rules were written first. I hope to one day write for BL, and when that day comes, nothing will happen in any of my books that wouldn't happen on the table. The day you see me describe a marine as walking faster than a sister is the day GW changes movement stats, because until that day, it is absolutely a load of crap that marines walk faster. They don't.

Similar, it is a load of crap that an SoS has anything on SoB. We have more gear; we have equally protective armour; we are just as strong and just as tough; SoS special abilities do not effect us in any meaningful way, but our special abilities, by augmenting us do affect SoS quite profoundly. A novelist who writes otherwise is a) ignorant b) lying or c) doing so from the prospective of an unreliable narrator.

Now if you want to determine relative strengths of SoS and SoB vs. Thousand Sons or any other highly psychic enemy, then yes, by that measure, the SoS have got us cold; our Shield of Faith gives us more defense against psychic powers than space marines get, but we're nothing compared to SoS in this game.

Fluff is valid when it supports rules. When it does not, rules give you a clearer picture of what the people who actually created and own the intellectual property believe to be true of the universe they created, and quite frankly, theirs is the only opinion that actually matters. It would be different if this game universe had been based on a book or a movie- in that case, the fluff guys would be the creators and owners of they intellectual property. But 40k was not based on books or movies. Movies and books are based on 40k.

(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)

I actually was basing it off the fact that Custodes view anyone not a custodes as lesser than a bother. A petulant child that needs codling. They deign to fight along side the IF because they were ordered to by Trajaan. But it's clear from the books that Trajaan, the Custodes, and even Robbie G see the SoS as one of if not these most potent weapons of the emperor. Never has that claim been leveled against the SoB. Custodes also view the SoS as the only fighting force that they are willing to share their time with.

As for fluff doesn't matter, we are clearly just discussing fluff. It's crazy to say fluff doesn't matter in a debate as to "Are sisters the equal of Space Marines".

Lastly, why do you keep using We in reference to the sisters? I totally understand if this is a gender neutral term, but then still, we implies that you believe you are a Sister of Battle.

stats wise SOS and SOB are so similer that honestly I'd expect them to be more or less equal if they went toe to toe, individiaul skill would be the detirminer

PenitentJake wrote:

(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)

Your irrational pet peeves are no concern of anyone's.

Fluff is more important than rules when discussing the setting and the people in it because rules much more readily change for reasons that have nothing to do with the setting or characters inside.

Initiative being removed from the game mechanics doesn't suddenly mean Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Eldar, Ogryn, Necrons, and Great Unclean Ones are all just as quick, it was done because GW believed it would be better for the game state.

Game rules are an abstraction, not a simulation.

PenitentJake wrote:

(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)

The rules are descriptive not prescriptive.

Any book that reads like a tabletop game is going to be short, mostly boring and won't be able to have real protagonists. Notice how in most books the main characters have plot armour superior to any real armour? Even in books where main characters die you still need some people to survive things they can't realistically otherwise they'd be background characters.

Then there is everything that happens not on the tabletop that you will need to use to... for want of a better word, fluff out your story. No one eats on the table top. No one has a conversation with comrades. No one has any back story. No one has any character arc.

There has been *plenty* written about Marines moving faster than humans and its been in the rules, not only with Initiative but also in number of attacks and a few other ways. If you disregard that you will be making up your own lore.

Sisters are well equipped and well trained but they are not Marines. They have some magical abilities that increase their effectiveness but that doesn't mean they are equal. Feel free to think they are but you're flying in the face of decades of back story. In the Grey Knights novel the Grey Knights are killing the SoB fairly effectively except for the advantage the SoB have in numbers and heavy equipment. Yes a Grey Knight is a badass Marine but it still shows you need many more SoB to take down a Marine.

Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.

Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.

Kayback wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.

Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.

Back in 2nd Ed the sisters could also bring squads of spear-wielding peasants. They were actually quite good against terminators...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I actually was basing it off the fact that Custodes view anyone not a custodes as lesser than a bother. A petulant child that needs codling. They deign to fight along side the IF because they were ordered to by Trajaan. But it's clear from the books that Trajaan, the Custodes, and even Robbie G see the SoS as one of if not these most potent weapons of the emperor. Never has that claim been leveled against the SoB. Custodes also view the SoS as the only fighting force that they are willing to share their time with.

The books? Which ones?

Beside this, you could just say: "Sorry, I got some fact wrongs". Or, if you don't believe that you got any facts wrong, you could give a source for your statements. But "The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor." and "
I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium. " ? Please, explain. As for "Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns", what about the excerpt quoted by AT? Are you just going to ignore it?

A.T. wrote:

Kayback wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.

Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.

Back in 2nd Ed the sisters could also bring squads of spear-wielding peasants. They were actually quite good against terminators...

I'd actually forgotten about the Frateris Militia. Didn't they have an upgrade to bows to give them some BS ability? Damn that's a long term retrieval memory. I never played them. Did they really work against Termies?

Kayback wrote:
I'd actually forgotten about the Frateris Militia. Didn't they have an upgrade to bows to give them some BS ability? Damn that's a long term retrieval memory. I never played them. Did they really work against Termies?

Only a WS of 2, but strength 5 AP -2 (and frenzied if led by a confessor). On the charge the first guy is likely toast - but they are also coming in with 10 more guys behind them (albeit only so many fighting at once). 3+ to wound, around an 11% chance to get through the armour and you'd likely be getting a fair few hits with the latter models.
Just weight of attacks.

Kayback wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.

Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.

Sure. And there’s probably a spot on an M1A1 Abrams that can be damaged by a spear, too. It’s still ridiculous to portray a modern tank company getting owned by human Ewoks.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Kayback wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.

Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.

Sure. And there’s probably a spot on an M1A1 Abrams that can be damaged by a spear, too. It’s still ridiculous to portray a modern tank company getting owned by human Ewoks.

It probably took quite a few militia to take those Terminators down in 2nd, too. It wouldn't shock me if 10-15 were killed to get the Terminators in CC alone. Prior to that the Terminators could mow them down at range at around 10 a turn I think.

Terminators wear nuclear powered armor meant to protect them from the heat and force of a plasma furnace. Going by the old spacebattle numbers, terminator armor offers better protection than most current day tank armor. And Space Marines are just as fast, but far more maneuverable and far, far better able to handle multiple close range targets. They should fare better than an actual tank against spear wielding rabble.

If it only takes 15-30 spearmen to kill one elite post human with the best weapons and training in exceptional armor...not only is that sad, but it calls into question the whole point of making and equipping those post human super soldiers. You could buy millions of spears and thousands of undernourished orphans for the cost one space marine Terminator.

Again, just because it’s in the game mechanics doesn’t mean it’s true in the setting, or should be since writers keep putting those head-slappers in their books.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Terminators wear nuclear powered armor meant to protect them from the heat and force of a plasma furnace.

Try wearing this in battle


This bit of lore makes no sense if you think about it.

That’s true. However, we know astartes armor is designed for actual combat, and terminator armor is superior to it. I like to think it was designed using materials science and engineering concepts proven by plasma furnace suits.

Probably based on an STC design for casual sun-hiking gear or something silly like that, knowing the fluff’s proclivities.

 Insectum7 wrote:


It probably took quite a few militia to take those Terminators down in 2nd, too. It wouldn't shock me if 10-15 were killed to get the Terminators in CC alone. Prior to that the Terminators could mow them down at range at around 10 a turn I think.

10-15 peasants with spears couldn't take down a medieval knight in plate armour most of the time, much less a posthuman wielding armour that can withstand being shot up with a fully automatic rocket-propelled missile launcher who is strong enough to literally punch a man's head so hard his fist would decapitate him.

10-15 dudes with spears shouldn't beat a naked Marine, much less one wearing Terminator armour.

It also shouldn't beat a Sister of Battle btw.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


It probably took quite a few militia to take those Terminators down in 2nd, too. It wouldn't shock me if 10-15 were killed to get the Terminators in CC alone. Prior to that the Terminators could mow them down at range at around 10 a turn I think.

10-15 peasants with spears couldn't take down a medieval knight in plate armour most of the time, much less a posthuman wielding armour that can withstand being shot up with a fully automatic rocket-propelled missile launcher who is strong enough to literally punch a man's head so hard his fist would decapitate him.

10-15 dudes with spears shouldn't beat a naked Marine, much less one wearing Terminator armour.

It also shouldn't beat a Sister of Battle btw.

Oh I'm saying 10-15 will get killed in the process of taking down five Terminators in 2nd ed. The actual number attacking the Terminators would have to be quite a bit more I think.

I don't think a naked marine should be immune to 10-15 guys with spears though. Marines are still just flesh and blood, and spears are pointy.

Edit: Actually, if the spears didn't have a save modifier the Terminators would last a long, long time. The militia would need the Terminators to roll double 1s, and each Terminator would kill a couple militia every turn.

Fun fact, with no save modifier for spears, Khorne Terminators would be totally immune, automatically passing their save of 2+ on 2d6.

Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned. While the SoB's and the SM's are the Marysue's of fiction in 40k, they are not depicted in the same way as to ability. No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial. And no Battle Brother, except for maybe a Chaplain, could manifest the EMperor's will like the Cannonesses' seem to do with regularity. (See cannonness tanking a direct shot from a Tachyon Arrow and getting up after)

Um, quick question here:

Some people have said that sisters vastly outnumber space marines. I was under the impression that very much the opposite was true.

There are or were at least 1000^2, a million, marines. I seem to recall reading that the number of SoBs was much smaller, partially due to the fact each one must take her vows on holy terra itself, often a long, dangerous and expensive journey.

I think it was said that the total number of actual battle sisters, as opposed to the total number of women in the adeptus sororitas' various factions like ordo hospitaler, ordo dialogues, etc, was in the few tends of thousands.

If my canon is outdated and they have boosted the number of nuns with guns can someone update me?

As to the actual effectiveness of the sisters, they are far above the IG in individual terms, not quite on par with space marines, especially in exotic environments where people forget space marines are often the best choice, and their fanatical loyalty and religious zealotry are important factors in the 4ok universe too as the acts of faith rules prove.

If certain things are detected early enough, like a chaos incursion, genestealer infiltration, etc, the SoBs may be able to crush and burn it out whereas normal human soldiers like PDF might fail at the sight of daemons and xenos.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I think it was said that the total number of actual battle sisters, as opposed to the total number of women in the adeptus sororitas' various factions like ordo hospitaler, ordo dialogues, etc, was in the few tends of thousands.

The total number of battle sisters is extremely vague.

Their preceptory structures (the largest gathering typically assigned to a location, such as a major cathedral) have around a thousand sisters. It is stated that some of the hundreds of minor orders have multiple preceptories while others might only have a single commandery (up to a couple of hundred sisters). What is not indicated is how many preceptory structures the major orders have - the current codex counts to 7 followed by ...etc - with each preceptory having hundreds/thousands of additional sisters in sub commandery structures.

So ultimately it is a big question mark.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned. While the SoB's and the SM's are the Marysue's of fiction in 40k, they are not depicted in the same way as to ability. No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial. And no Battle Brother, except for maybe a Chaplain, could manifest the EMperor's will like the Cannonesses' seem to do with regularity. (See cannonness tanking a direct shot from a Tachyon Arrow and getting up after)

Ok, so I guess we will never be able to get either a precise source backing your statement, or an acknowledgement that you got some facts wrong.
This is not going to result in any kind of productive discussion. You can't just throw random affirmations around and expect people to believe you, especially when they read and can quote specific sources contradicting you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned. While the SoB's and the SM's are the Marysue's of fiction in 40k, they are not depicted in the same way as to ability. No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial. And no Battle Brother, except for maybe a Chaplain, could manifest the EMperor's will like the Cannonesses' seem to do with regularity. (See cannonness tanking a direct shot from a Tachyon Arrow and getting up after)

Ok, so I guess we will never be able to get either a precise source backing your statement, or an acknowledgement that you got some facts wrong.
This is not going to result in any kind of productive discussion. You can't just throw random affirmations around and expect people to believe you, especially when they read and can quote specific sources contradicting you.

Go ahead and quote me the source of Sisters =/better than Astartes. Go ahead, I'll wait.

My sources:
EVERY ASTARTES BOOK AND BRB ever for 40k, Watchers of the Throne as it applies to Custodes statements, SoB Omnibus as it applies to Sister's "abilities". As for their Mary-sue status, See the same. Also, their logic is completely invalid. They worship the emperor and abhor anything not in keeping with his holy word, but they also directly manifest and create a Warp abomination "Living saint" read her keywords. She's strongly implied to be a daemon host by Grey Fax in the book where she's fighting on Cadia. She believed the church had perverted the will of the emperor and created demons (Living Saints) and Mutants (Wulfen) and other heretical beings (Robute ressurecting with Eldar Consorts)

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Go ahead and quote me the source of Sisters =/better than Astartes. Go ahead, I'll wait.

That's not what I am asking a source for. I am asking for sources for the bolded part in this message.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor. The SoB do not compare to the Custodes in any respect. Fluff or table top. I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.

While we are on the topic, Those are likely the pinacle of base human evolution. The assassins. They routinely take down major targets, without power armor, faith, or excluding the pariah one, unholy warp stuff. Just pure insane skill.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As for their Mary-sue status, See the same. Also, their logic is completely invalid. They worship the emperor and abhor anything not in keeping with his holy word, but they also directly manifest and create a Warp abomination "Living saint" read her keywords. She's strongly implied to be a daemon host by Grey Fax in the book where she's fighting on Cadia. She believed the church had perverted the will of the emperor and created demons (Living Saints) and Mutants (Wulfen) and other heretical beings (Robute ressurecting with Eldar Consorts)

Quite a lot to unpick with this one.

Firstly - 'mary sues' would suggest that the sisters are portrayed as absurdly hyper-competent and perfect, as opposed to - for example - the last two officially published instances of sisters where (trailer) they are shown as weaker than both the astartes and necrons and (daemonifuge) they are... well lets say quite some distance from being flawless. Then you have saint punching bag, canoness "i'm going for a walk, I may be some time", and... honestly i'm struggling to think of a sisters character that isn't either getting killed, blindly fanatical, or otherwise some way far from perfect. Even the new character Junith reached her rank after the superior she was supposed to be guarding got unceremoniously squashed in a building collapse (alongside literally hundreds of other redshirt sisters - what a bunch of mary sues)

Secondly - Celestines keywords are character, infantry, jump pack, fly, celestine. So i've got no idea what you were aiming for there.
A friend has borrowed my copy of the cadia book so i've not got it to hand to reference, but I do recall that Celestine from her own perspective sees it as the Emperor, not the other sisters, bringing her back. And when Cadia is briefly cut off from the warp she and the gemini lose their boosted powers but are not banished back into the warp nor split into mortal and daemonic entities - which a daemonhost is (hence the name).
Again not having the book to hand i'd be interested to see a quote of Greyfax thinking that the church created the Wulfen as that would have taken quite a leap of misinformation on her part - though not impossible for a displaced and confused inquisitor throwing out crackpot theories.

Jesusm has no one read the fall of Cadia? When Greyfax is awakened she becomes horrified at what the church has allowed. She outright refuses to believe the Wulfen aren't mutants and that the Living Saint isn't heretical.

Quoted from the Warhammjer lexicanum

Despite being a powerful Psyker herself, when Greyfax emerged she was shocked at the sight of Imperial psykers using their powers without sanction and to see the Space Wolves Chapter's Wulfen running rampant on the battlefield. What left her utterly appalled though, was seeing how the Imperial defenders of Cadia, worshiped the so-called Living Saint, Celestine — as it was nothing short of idolatry in Greyfax's mind. These sights, however, have not shaken her unwavering faith in the Emperor and Greyfax is committed to aiding the Imperium in defending Cadia. Greyfax ultimately worked alongside these psychic abominations and mutants such as Wulfen in battling Abaddon personally

"At the cavern's edge, Katarinya Greyfax beheld Celestine's arrival with revulsion. How long had she been gone that such heresy could take root?"

That quote doesn't say Greyfax believes the church created Wulfen.

One area where space marines would win out over SoBs is experience.

Think about it: Space Marines have far longer lifespans than humans. Hell, Dante' is at least a couple millennia old. At least.

Even spacewolves, known for having short, by SM standards, lifespans have a member who's like over 800, maybe 900 by now.

Think of the experience points they rack up over all that time. Obviously the ones who die early don;t, but by the time you're a SM sarge, or a lieutenant, you've probably got at least a century or two under your belt.

SoB, even with anti aging serums., likely don't have an active service life of a century. It's possible some few are selected for advanced anti aging treatment, or have "holy miracles" that extend their service life, but by and large they just don't even under the biuesrt of conditions live long enough to rack up anywhere neae the XPs a SM vet has.

Plus the fact is the SMs are just more useful in more situations that SoBs are, and both have their uses.

SoBs are excellent at squashing uprising GSC or Chaos cults, crushing dissidents trying to organize for better working/living conditions, etc. They can even stand up to a daemonic incursion if it;s not like a huge number of them. They're also inspirational, the sight of them can rally frateris Militia into a useful fighting force that makes up for it's deficiencies with faith and fanaticism. They ca be used to "stiffen" ( no stupid jokes please) regular IG forces with their faith and fervor.

But they can't do a lot of things SMs excel at. Have a troublesome ork depot behind enemy lines that is supplying ork forces and servicing ork vehicles you need to get rid of? A few squads of SM doing a rapid insertion raid may get rid of it, a SoB force isn't likely to. Spacehulk just dropped into your system and is causing trouble? A SM taskforce can hopefully handle it. A heavy tank force needs killing? Send in some devastator squads.

They're really different forces with different expectations and mandates. Just because they both wear power armor and tote bolters doesn't mean they're comparable.