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A.T. wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
So sisters can have their miracles and acts of faith, perhaps even created by their deep belief the emperor is a god, but marines can't.

It is followed through in the fluff as well - sisters aren't the only ones capable of miracles.

Saint Sabbat is probably the most extreme example but you can go all the way back to the horus heresy books with daemons being driven off by faith.

You're right. Miracles are generally for people who can and do believe the emperor is a god. Marines don't get miracles, they get librarians and psyker powers.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

It's hard to reconcile because there are more anti tank weapons in the galaxy than marines, so they shouldn't be that hard to kill. There are more leman Russ than marines, and their battlecannon should be able to kill a squad of marines if it lands on them.

There are more AK-47s than there are Navy Seals (or SAS or whatever), so they shouldn't be hard to kill. . . There's really a logical disconnect with that sort of statement. These troops aren't(shouldn't) be deployed in a way that sets them up for being mere bullet sponges for effective counter fire.

That aside, one of the major benefits of marines is that they are able to return to battle after suffering injuries that would preclude further service of a normal human. Those anti-tank weapons might knock them out of the fight, but Marines are far more likely to survive the trauma and serve again. If Marines and Sisters suffered the same casualty rate in action, marines would wind up with a much higher rate of survival and redeployment, and thus wind up with a more experienced group of soldiers.

In the context of 40k it's pretty different though. Marines are going into existing battlefields, not populations of civilians with insurgents peppered throughout.

Virtually every deployment is against forces already armed for war, often in the middle of prosecuting one. They aren't depicted as attacking barracks and shooting people in their sleep (although I imagine they do do that). Their special missions are against heavily armed Orks to kill a mekboss, or lightning strike on a tau depot defended by battlesuits.

Every guard squad they face has up to 2 anti tank weapons equipped.

The mind of assymetrical warfare seals do well is hard to replicate in the total war environment of 40k. It would happen far more often inside the imperium with arbitrators or inquisitorial storm troopers. Bit the total war battlefields into which marines are deployed are not going to be anything like the same.


As to recovery, I'm sceptical that marines are more resistant to missiles than tanks. It seems a bit ridiculous that marines are more capable of surviving an anti tank round than a normal human is a bullet. Marines aren't bullet proof. They're very likely to survive being shot with small arms, even when pelted with them. But a plasma blast to the chest, or a metal gun is going to melt a hole all the way through them just as it would an actual tank.

I mean you then run into the issue that if a melta gun can't one shot a marine, the bolters are completely useless at killing marines which we know is not true.

Debatable.

You can kill a tank in many ways, mobility kill, crew kills, cook off, obliteration... something as small as throwing a track can "kill" a tank. Blowing the arm or foot off a Marine may not stop them. The increased clotting factor and stims can keep a Marine that's "mobility killed" from becoming a casualty. Sure sooner or later they may die from their wounds but if it's after they've killed an entire battalion of enemy is that a problem?

Unlike vehicles a human body is very resilient to parts damage. Now make it post human. Give it extra hearts, give it enhanced pain management. Give it increased clotting. Give it increased strength and dense bones. Give it an almost armoured torso to protect most vital organs. Give it heightened reflexes. Now encase it in armour. Now give it a cannon that can one-shot most human equivalent enemies.

Pit that against an IG squad and the Marine will engage the HW and Special Weapons in order of threat. It'll ignore most other attacks until it can get to them, moving faster and striking more accurately with deadlier weapons than the IG squad has and it's almost a non contest. The other races have various advantages, Tau will damage Marines if they hit them, Tyranids can claw them apart, Orks just have too many to effectively knock out like that, Eldar move fast and hit hard and are resilient, Necrons are resilient.

There are plenty of AT guns that could kill a Marine, but you've got to hit them with them first and make it a hit that counts. A Meltagun shot to the arm may result in the rest of the Marine being boiled but it may just mean they lose an arm.

Marines aren't always going up against the worst of the worst, sometimes it's fairly rudimentary.

I think Astartes got it spot on in terms of marine capability, 5 marines were sent to do a job against fairly low level opposition with some heavy weapons but nothing sinister. Then when it came to the psykers, they were arguably out classed or matched in a combat capacity, at which point they utilised tactics and experience to win the day. That was 5 marines.

At the same time, and this is genuinely one of my favourite marine stories, in the 3rd edition codex where 30 marines are deployed by thunder hawk to neutralise some form of research facility based on an asteroid. They go in, exterminate and leave, again the resistance was futile, they didn't have weaponry that would trouble the marines, and the marines were extremely efficient. The implication is that the defenders found something that corrupted the facility and it's security, which may be the justification for sending in marines as it could be a chaos or xenos corrupted cult for example.... Point stands to reason, marines do not always drop in on heavily defended and high risk targets. Sometimes they are the quickest weapon against any target. A planetary governor that is a flight risk, send a drop pod crashing through the palace roof within minutes (providing marines are in the theatre that is, which is a limitation, but there is also a limitation in terms of amounts of sisters also so it's moot really).

Again, if you settle that sisters can match marines due to faith, they absolutely cannot match marines in terms of flexibility and battlefield roles, marines can cover every required operation (arguably anyway, unless substantial numbers are needed for attrition, but hey, that is what Krieg is for), sisters cannot, you can argue this is an equipment limitation, and you may be right, but still, marines have more options.

Sisters are better trained and equipped than almost every other human force in the Imperium and have the benefit of being blessed by the Emperor. They are respected and revered by most.

Marines are not human - they are both superhuman and inhuman, they are faster, more durable and better equipped than the Sisters (the Black Carapace through to the more substantial void fleet including their own Battleship equivalents and larger). They also have a loyal and effective thrall class to support them in and out of battle as well as stronger links to the Ad Mech. All true citizens of Imperium respect and revere them - or at least greatly fear them.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned.

Point being, I don't really want your personal opinion on whether marines are superior to sisters, I want you to acknowledge this:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Beside this, you could just say: "Sorry, I got some fact wrongs". Or, if you don't believe that you got any facts wrong, you could give a source for your statements. But "The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor." and "I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium." ? Please, explain

Name a source or recognize you got facts wrong. Or something else, but don't just ignore it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.

Sisters are sent, in the lore, to purge rogue space marines chapters. Something that SM obviously do not view as routine or menial.
Source, Citadel Journal 59 p19, see https://thetrove.net/Magazines/Games%20Workshop/Citadel%20Journal/Citadel%20Journal%2049.pdf (p21 in the file, numbered 19).

See, this is me giving a source, rather than just giving my opinion.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because now a lowly base human has to be just as good as the literal gods she likely worships.

The way the Sisters of Battle view the Adeptus Astartes is described in the lore, and it is not one of worship. On the one hand, the Sisters have some respects for space marines as creations of the Emperor, but on the other hand, even if they aren't outright mutant, they eschew the “purity of the human form” that the Sisters believe in, and they are often holding heretical beliefs. So it's a very strained relationship, they can work together but they don't like space marines.
Do you want sources on that too? Or do you straight up don't care about sources, and just go by your opinion instead?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are obviously SMs that are well over 1k. Bjorn I thought fought alongside Russ and Dorn, which makes him over 10k? The Dark angel that's in stasis in their planet's deepest chapel is a primarch by the rumors, and If we go into the Chaos boys they are Naught's considered living space marines? Because I thought it said most "Venerable Dreadnaughts" earn their status through multiple centuries of service. Hell, isn't Fadix over 1k? He's been there since the Horus heresy according to the Custodes books.

The age of anyone in stasis is irrelevant. You don't gain combat experience while in stasis. You don't train while in stasis. You don't do anything while in stasis.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No SoB could go on the Crusades the BT's go through.

That's not how you measure faith lol.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.

Sisters are sent, in the lore, to purge rogue space marines chapters. Something that SM obviously do not view as routine or menial.
Source, Citadel Journal 59 p19, see https://thetrove.net/Magazines/Games%20Workshop/Citadel%20Journal/Citadel%20Journal%2049.pdf (p21 in the file, numbered 19).

You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.

A nod to the original rogue trader appearance of the adepta sororitas.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.

Especially cool when the modus operandi is SUPRISE DROP POD ATTACK ON YOUR CHAPTER MASTER'S FACE!

Imagine this. Chapter Master Bob, still thinking of himself as a loyalist, is preparing for his daily blood-drinking, wolf-owling, ritual scarring ritual. Then, out of the skies, BAM, a drop pod falls right into his cauldron of blood-wolf. He is very confused. The drop pod doors open to a chorus of melta and flamers incinerating all his councilors, while a puritan Inquisitor points his Inquisitorial Rosette, yelling that Bob has been declared Excomunicate Traitoris, and that he will fall to the Inquisition's best weapon, surprise. Fear and surprise. Fear and surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Emperor of Mankind!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.

Especially cool when the modus operandi is SUPRISE DROP POD ATTACK ON YOUR CHAPTER MASTER'S FACE!

Imagine this. Chapter Master Bob, still thinking of himself as a loyalist, is preparing for his daily blood-drinking, wolf-owling, ritual scarring ritual. Then, out of the skies, BAM, a drop pod falls right into his cauldron of blood-wolf. He is very confused. The drop pod doors open to a chorus of melta and flamers incinerating all his councilors, while a puritan Inquisitor points his Inquisitorial Rosette, yelling that Bob has been declared Excomunicate Traitoris, and that he will fall to the Inquisition's best weapon, surprise. Fear and surprise. Fear and surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Emperor of Mankind!

Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?

Its newer fluff I think, but they drop Cathedrals on people. Cathedrals with giant external flamers that then deploy and unload wave after wave of Sororitas forces. There's a great blurb on it in the 9th BRB.

I think Sisters acting as the "let's purge the Marines" army (even though other Marines have been known to do it as well, see Badab) is largely based in their fanaticism and resistance to the whole "Space Marines being avenging angels" propaganda.

A guardsman will be hesitant to fire upon a Space Marine who has only ever really been known to them from childhood as an angel of the Emperor's wrath, but a Sister is closer to the Church and the Emperor (in terms of faith and theology, at least), and can likely separate the Astartes from their propagandised image.

So, the combination of being the most elite "basic" human forces and being so fanatically loyal that they can be relied upon to act in the Imperium's best interest against some of their more fearsome assets, and won't show any mercy to them, is why Sisters are so often chosen for those roles.

I personally don't put them on the same power level, but that's not to say that Marines will always beat the Sisters.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?

Yes and no - sisters have been known to use them in the service of the inquisition (see the strike force in the journal above), but not by themselves.

Don't know whether or not we'll get models for the drop Cathedral, but I think there are good odds.

Another famous and recent lore scene that uses them is in Pariah; the first battle the Imperium actually wins involves two drop cathedrals landing behind enemy lines.

A.T. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.

A nod to the original rogue trader appearance of the adepta sororitas.

Ah yes, Sister Sin pulling the 'Is this some kind of bust?' joke on an unsuspecting Rainbow Warrior.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?

In Faith and Fire, the Sisters do use some sort of drop pod to make a ship boarding operation to retrieve an escaped alpha psyker prisonner. The ship captain targetted who was boarded numerous time by navy troopers and Arbites was surprised and scared by the speed and efficiency of the Sisters. This seems to indicate that if they don't have drop pods like Space Marines they at least have boarding pods and are extremly good at their usage.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Sisters are sent, in the lore, to purge rogue space marines chapters. Something that SM obviously do not view as routine or menial.
Source, Citadel Journal 59 p19, see https://thetrove.net/Magazines/Games%20Workshop/Citadel%20Journal/Citadel%20Journal%2049.pdf (p21 in the file, numbered 19).

See, this is me giving a source, rather than just giving my opinion.

Although your quote does say that only better-than-standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, do this. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with a baseline Marine.

Kayback wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Sisters are sent, in the lore, to purge rogue space marines chapters. Something that SM obviously do not view as routine or menial.
Source, Citadel Journal 59 p19, see https://thetrove.net/Magazines/Games%20Workshop/Citadel%20Journal/Citadel%20Journal%2049.pdf (p21 in the file, numbered 19).

See, this is me giving a source, rather than just giving my opinion.

Although your quote does say that only better-than-standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, do this. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with a baseline Marine.

They also do not purge the whole chapter, they assassinate the chapter master... A whole strike force for one marine.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They also do not purge the whole chapter, they assassinate the chapter master... A whole strike force for one marine.

A few dozen sisters to kill Marneus Calgar and his personal retinue seems a little on the light side to be fair.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?

The Citadel Journal link I gave point to an article about it, with a special army list for Adepta Sororitas Strike Forces. Complete with special profile for Sororitas drop pods.

Kayback wrote:
Although your quote does say that only better-than-standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, do this. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with a baseline Marine.

My quote says only better than standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, go after the rogue Chapter Master and his retinue. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with the Chapter Master's personal retinue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They also do not purge the whole chapter, they assassinate the chapter master... A whole strike force for one marine.

What do you think happens after the chapter master is dead? The rest of the marines are then given little commemorative gifts, and given position very high in the Inquisition?

You need to read up on your marine history. Marines have been allowed to penance campaign for past transgressions, including rebellion... Kill the command structure and that is probably the deal offered to the rest of the chapter, or they be fully purged. If it is the latter that is chosen then the sisters have a problem, as the chapter will now fully mobilise with all its kit.

i.e. it's going to take a lot more than a sisters order to bring them down, it would require substantial naval support and most likely would be left to another or more chapters.

Believe your own version of events because you want to champion the sisters if you want, but you are wrong, sisters do not compare.

A whole coordinated strike force of the best the Sisters have to offer led by an experienced Inquisitor often with support from the Imperial Navy and armed with better equipment than is usually permitted to them are able to kill a chapter master and his personal retinue (usually like three or four guys) in a surprise assault.

This is evidence that Sisters are, in fact, inferior to Astartes most of the time, which is frankly very evident from how the setting refers to them compared to how it refers to the Sisters.

The Sisters are generally the best human troops that can be fielded. But Astartes are not human. If a bolter penetrates the armour and shrapnel punctures the Sisters' heart, she will usually die. In hand to hand a Marine can easily overpower a Sister of Battle, and is quicker besides.

Their powers of faith can only do so much.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A whole coordinated strike force of the best the Sisters have to offer led by an experienced Inquisitor often with support from the Imperial Navy and armed with better equipment than is usually permitted to them are able to kill a chapter master and his personal retinue (usually like three or four guys) in a surprise assault.

This is evidence that Sisters are, in fact, inferior to Astartes most of the time, which is frankly very evident from how the setting refers to them compared to how it refers to the Sisters.

The sisters strikeforce the example given doesn't seem to be any larger or better armed than the marine strike force box-set - as I said above it seems rather small to be pitched against something like a chapter master. And 'better equipped' in the context of the article is accurate in the sense that Celestians could take a heavy weapon in their squad, while batter sisters could not...

I wouldn't expect 20 tactical marines, 10 assault marines, and five scouts launched by drop-pod to be able to pull it off against someone like Calgar or Dante and their personal honour guard for example

We shouldn't use Calgar and Dante as examples to be honest, they are legendary chapter masters, they are a step above.

Your regular, average chapter master that doesn't have ancient relics and come from a first founding chapter is not going to be of that standard. Chapter masters from other chapters get killed in the fluff.

Nearly a quarter company of marines, depending on how they are equipped are going to be a problem for most other small group of space marines when descended upon as one force, irrespective of experience and equipment.

A quarter company of Marines getting the element of surprise against an unsupported Chapter Master and his most immediate retinue? Yeah, I can see the Chapter Master going down.

But the issue is getting that element of surprise, and taking out the Chapter Master before anyone else can come to their aid.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
A quarter company of Marines getting the element of surprise against an unsupported Chapter Master and his most immediate retinue? Yeah, I can see the Chapter Master going down.

Perhaps i'm too used to seeing the likes of chaptermaster smashfether on the table, and giving them too much credit for being indestructible killing machines that should go through a squad of sisters/marines like a tank over a speedbump.

Additionally, why attack when he is fully armoured up with his weapons of war, catch him in his quarters where he may not even be in power armour if you are lucky.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Additionally, why attack when he is fully armoured up with his weapons of war, catch him in his quarters where he may not even be in power armour if you are lucky.

I suspect it might be difficult to get the drop pod into his quarters :p

Depends on the fortress Monastry, ship, base they are in, they are all different. You would have thought the smart thing to do is be in the centre of mass of such a thing, but then you get no over the top stained glass to look out of.

Nearly all Fortress Monastaries are some of the most well-defended locations in the Imperium. It's not really as simple as "ah, just drop on in".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Nearly all Fortress Monastaries are some of the most well-defended locations in the Imperium. It's not really as simple as "ah, just drop on in".

Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic, I'm on the marines side of things in this argument.

It goes to state though, marines are arrogant and fearless, they aren't going to shy away from the limelight out of fear of assassination.