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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And what about all the other branches of the High Lords who see the Ecclesiarchy massing huge amounts of power and wealth? They're just going to let that happen?

I just don't believe that they are invited to give their opinion on how the Ecclesiarchy designs their budget. If the Ecclesiarchy wants to spend three times the amount of money of a standard melta gun, so that their Sisters get slightly superior melta guns than what marines get, the Mechanicus won't care, they get the money. The Inquisition won't care, that won't create a power imbalance. The Guard won't care, it's just better guns for people on their side. The Administratum just won't care.

Sorry, where's all this "Sisters have superior meltaguns" coming from?

Also, the other HLOT don't get a say on HOW the Ecclesiarchy spend their budget, but very much might get a say on how much budget the Ecclesiarchy get, or, more importantly, how much power they're going to let the Church have before they intervene. And getting stronger weapons for your military? Sounds an awful lot like you could be starting a coup there.

Don't forget, all the other Lords want their organisation to have more power too.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, just to correct you, the Abbess and Cardinals of the Synod aren't guaranteed seats.

Yeah, just regular ones. With the Ecclesiarch being a permanent one. Still.

The Ecclesiarch whose primary concern isn't exactly on the Sisters, unlike the Abbess. Yes, the Sisters are his *militant* arm, but the Ecclesiarch is primarily concerned with the legions of preachers and cathedrals.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Because that's where a Chapter Master spends the most of his time? If you're going to assume a Space Marine is anywhere, it's either on their own ships, or their Fortress-Monastary, same as I'd expect a Canoness to be on a Shrine World with a big old war cathedral base of operation.

Are we talking about the same 40k? How often do those guys end up on a battlefield? I'd say, a lot. Unlike legendary Imperial Guard commanders.

The question is can you find the right battlefield? Chapter Masters don't deploy as often as you think, and Space Marines in general aren't commonly in the practice of prolonged deployments, save for extenuating circumstances. Most Space Marine involvement will be conducted within a month, weeks even, and then off to another warzone to let everyone else clean up the mess.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Battle of Calth

So my fluff is too old, but you are going to bring up 10 000 years old fluff .
We are not talking about purging a legion, we are talking about purging a chapter.

And the Word Bearers attempted it with even more resources than the Sisters force you've been describing - still failed.

Besides, with what you've been claiming about Marines running around like headless chickens after their commander gets taken out, I'd have thought suppressing a Legion would be easier.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And what makes you think that Vindicare Assassins would be "*worse* at the whole destabilising command thing than Sisters? Because that's what you're implying.
[…]
Hell, if Sisters are so good at this, why bother with Assassins? Because apparently they can wipe out an entire Chapter's captaincy in the middle of their Fortress-Monastery better than the Officio Assassinorum can.

Oh, you can bet your ass that if the Inquisitor has access to some Assassins, they will use them on the chapter master. If they only have access to Sisters of Battle, they will use the Sisters of Battle. If they have access to both, they will use both.
Did you read the actual army list? It specifically allows for a Vindicare or a Culexus assassin!!

I did. Only, those aren't Sisters. I was talking about ACTUAL Sisters.

And the only thing that would make Sisters better here, is availability. What good is an assassin being more efficient if you can't secure one in the first place.

That's what I've been saying - the Sisters aren't *better*, they're just more common.

However, if given the choice between Sisters of Battle or Space Marines, they will usually chose Sisters of Battle, for the reason given in the Citadel Journal article.

I didn't really see a reason given, beyond "Sisters are easier to control". Which is what I've been claiming.

But, considering this whole thing seems to have been brought up to show how Sisters are supposedly equal to Marines, that's not a good look.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But they must have done SOMETHING to warrant this force to take them to heel. Chapters don't get censured for nothing. So, the moment they've done whatever can be considered heretical or censure-worthy, they'd be on high alert.

Because they think they did that unnoticed, and it was a long time ago? I don't know man, are you trying to get me to write an actual novel?

I mean, you're the one coming up with all the scenarios here.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, regarding the "no official warning" - the Astral Claws were given more than enough warning. All of the Abyssal Crusade Chapters were given warning. Chapters aren't just blacklisted and assumed bad - there's usually SOME degree of "hey, dude, what's going on" before gloves are taken off.

Different Inquisitors handle different situations differently.
Like, VERY differently. The range of possible reaction is enormous. But “create a trap for the Chapter command structure, and kill them all using Sisters of Battle drop pod attack, and then recycle or exterminate the rest of the chapter with the help of the huge forces you just requisitioned” doesn't seems out of character for one of the least tolerant Inquisitor, does it?

The hard part is setting the trap for the Chapter's command structure.

The most plausible effort I've seen has been what happened to the Celestial Lions - Vindicare Assassins, taking down the Chapter's lifeblood *mid-combat*.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All I'm saying is if it was THAT important to the Sisters' identity, it'd be in the most recent Codex. Which it might be, I don't own it!
[…]But you'd think if it was THAT important and relevant to their lore, it'd be mentioned when they *did* get new content in a brand new model line and Codex?

All I'm saying is, if it wasn't mentioned again, was it *really* that critical to their operating function?

It's never been my claim that this was THAT important to the Sisters' identity. Being sometime requisitioned by Inquisitor for this specific part isn't a big part of the Sisters identity. It is, however, a good example that “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.” is wrong, with Sisters completing a task that most space marines would consider an extremely dangerous endeavor.

I'm not saying Sisters *can't* pull this stuff off. But I'm not agreeing that they're specifically the *best* force for it. They're chosen because they're more malleable to the orders of the Inquisition.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
How canon is that, exactly? Is it canon like how the Ultramarines have a half-Eldar Librarian? Or that Guilliman is still in a stasis field?

Unlike both, it's not in contradiction to any newer fluff, is it?
Beside, if you ask me, Guilliman is still in a stasis field. I'm not interested at all with anything that relates to after he was woken out, I hate this development and do my best to ignore it.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Resources, political clout, purer geneseed[…]They may have better educators, better resources to train their troops, a stronger logistical network - these things won't change raw innate talent, but they make a hell of a difference.

Because of a difference of sometime a few hundreds years, and still present after 10 000 years?
I don't think that makes sense, AND I dislike it (which are two very different things, I admit ^^).

I think it makes total sense, myself. Names carry power, in the real world, and in 40k.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, that's not to say they're the ONLY ones capable of it, or even the best at it.

That's never been something I claimed. My reading of the Citadel Journal article is that the main reason they use Sisters is because Space Marines have a loyalty problem.

Agreed. But I also don't exactly think it's an easy task, or one that's even performed with any degree of regularity.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd then say another Astartes Chapter - but if it's a matter of something like, say, a violation of the Imperial Creed or the Ecclesiarchy's edicts, why would a Space Marine Chapter risk their own necks for the Church?

Again, like Melissia, I don't think that's how the Ecclesiarchy would operate on their own. They are more of a “Bring overbearing force, kill their dudes, salt the earth, build massive pyres for everyone you manage to capture alive who is vaguely related to them”
Have you looked at the actual army list? It FORCES you to take an Inquisitor as HQ.

Yeah - because it's forcing Inquistors and stuff, I personally am not so sure how far I'd class it as a Sisters of Battle force, and more of an Inquisitor's retinue force.

I mean, Chapters more closely tied to the Inquisition like the Exorcists and Minotaurs would also be more than capable of performing these missions.


TL;DR - I think there's a bit of disconnect here of exactly how important and how common it is for Sisters to attempt these missions.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
TL;DR - I think there's a bit of disconnect here of exactly how important and how common it is for Sisters to attempt these missions.

I don't think that the Inquisition or the High Lords of Terra really favor sending Space Marine Chapters to crush rebellious Space Marine Chapter (with the notable exception of the Minotaurs) for fear of further rebellion. Space Marines Chapters have been portrayed as being quite tribalistic and respect each other to a greater extand than any other institution of the Imperium. There are examples in the lore, most famous the Badab War, where Space Marines sent to crush rebellious bretheren refused to obey their orders and even turned coat to join the rebels in turn. If can't really count on Space Marines to take down other Space Marines, you are left with Sisters of Battle as the other next best option. They are incredibly unlikely to balk at the order of destroying a Space Marine Chapter compared to another Chapter.

I think that the space wolves were created by the big E to be his 'executioners' of any rebellious legions. They were sure sent to crush the thousand sons and prospero.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I think that the space wolves were created by the big E to be his 'executioners' of any rebellious legions. They were sure sent to crush the thousand sons and prospero.

Following the Horus Heresy though the Space Wolves haven't been sent on any such mission as far as I know. In fact, they were theatened to be purged on a few occasion themselves due to their "stubborness".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sorry, where's all this "Sisters have superior meltaguns" coming from?

It's an example of how the Ecclesiarchy's massive resources can be spent on Sisters of Battle budget.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, the other HLOT don't get a say on HOW the Ecclesiarchy spend their budget, but very much might get a say on how much budget the Ecclesiarchy get

What? The Ecclesiarchy levy its own taxes. And use the donation boxes too. Other High Lords don't have a say on that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
or, more importantly, how much power they're going to let the Church have before they intervene. And getting stronger weapons for your military? Sounds an awful lot like you could be starting a coup there.

Now that's a stretch. If they were levying more troops at the same time, maybe. Just getting better wargear for the same troops? Not sounding like a coup.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ecclesiarch whose primary concern isn't exactly on the Sisters, unlike the Abbess. Yes, the Sisters are his *militant* arm, but the Ecclesiarch is primarily concerned with the legions of preachers and cathedrals.

The Sisters are just their biggest vanity project, but ok.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The question is can you find the right battlefield?

And the answer is “you would be a pretty poor Inquisitor if you couldn't”.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And the Word Bearers attempted it with even more resources than the Sisters force you've been describing - still failed.

Apples to orange, apples to oranges.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I did. Only, those aren't Sisters. I was talking about ACTUAL Sisters.

So, you saw the army list allowed for some assassins on top of Sisters, and you didn't stop to thing “Maybe the Inquisitor want to have both assassins and Sisters”?
Weird but ok. But now you can think about the Inquisitor wanting Sisters and Assassins.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, considering this whole thing seems to have been brought up to show how Sisters are supposedly equal to Marines, that's not a good look.

Yay revisionism.
This whole thing have been brought to show how “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial”.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I mean, you're the one coming up with all the scenarios here.

You are coming up with an awful amount of stuff too. Like saying that Chapter Masters spend all their time turtled up in Fortress Monastery, and then backtracking to their deployment zone being hard to find. Or touting the Celestian Lions as representing the standard way a chapter is purged, despite no similar events being described in the lore afaik.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The hard part is setting the trap for the Chapter's command structure.

Inquisitor can do hard stuff sometime maybe???

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not saying Sisters *can't* pull this stuff off.

So you are in agreement that Sisters can “complete task that SM view as much more than routine, let alone menial”? Great, we are in agreement. Nice to know.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Names carry power, in the real world, and in 40k.

This power doesn't stand unchanging for millennia, though, and at some point some other name is going to catch up to yours.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah - because it's forcing Inquistors and stuff, I personally am not so sure how far I'd class it as a Sisters of Battle force, and more of an Inquisitor's retinue force.

It's a “Ordo Hereticus Strike force”. That's the name of the list. It's comprised primarily of Sisters of Battle. The only non-SoB options are one unique inquisitor, and maybe some assassins.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I mean, Chapters more closely tied to the Inquisition like the Exorcists and Minotaurs would also be more than capable of performing these missions.

Certainly they are. The whole 2000 of them!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
TL;DR - I think there's a bit of disconnect here of exactly how important and how common it is for Sisters to attempt these missions.

I never claimed it was common. And the mission itself definitely is important, and the Sisters are usually the better choice available for it, but it's definitely not the raison d'être for Sisters of Battle, yes. But you are entirely losing focus on the reason why I brought this forward, somehow. Despite me quoting it again in the post you were answering. “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.” is just not true. I mean, the guy who posted that still hasn't acknowledged that he was wrong about Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle…

You are either delusional or trolling. You have taken a short scenario in a journal about sisters assassinating a chapter master and turned it into purging a whole chapter, with weapons so ornate and expensive, marines couldn't even get hold of them if they wanted to.

You will probably claim that is my head canon, but you are ignoring everything in recent fluff to suit your agenda and setting. That is head canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, chapter masters are sometimes equipped with the best of the best armour, weaponry as well as their body guards... What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour? Are they going to engage the chapter masters and his body guard in hand to hand combat?

And bare in mind, you are the one talking of taking out the chapter master when in a war zone, when they would be equipped in full armour etc, it is us that are stating the best way to do this would be catching them off guard...

Also typically if Ad Mech had 3x better meltaguns, for example, they would keep it for themselves. No amount of money would be able to pry the best machines from their cold mechanical fingers.

Exactly, there's planet sized vaults all over the galaxy with the most powerful artisan weaponry that the admech preserve and will never use because they are basically magpies. Ultimate hoarders.

Lastly, and this is the downfall of that argument. Do you think the Ecclesiarchy, the most arrogant and facist organisation in the imperium don't look down on and give the Ad Mech headaches about their faith in the omnissiah? Do you think the Ad Mech aren't going to take that into account when distributing weapons, no matter how much the buyer is willing to pay?

Yeah, they're keeping the best for themselves, and the next best goes to ordos of the inquisition (sisters are no longer the chamber militant of the hereticus and due to the omnissiah again, the hereticus is lower down the pecking order than others), certain marine chapters and guard regiments of certain forge worlds, then maybe the ecclesiarchies vanity project. Due to past transgressions by the ecclesiarchy, they probably have the administratum keep a very close eye on the tools of war they purchase... No one wants another Vandire.

Its honestly not accurate to say Sisters or Space marines are superior because both are different. Its like saying a boltgun is superior to a lasgun which is simply not true. There are strength's and weaknesses on the surface the boltgun is outright better...until you factor in cost, ammunition and durability and then its far more equal. You won't see the benefits of a lasgun in table top gaming but in the fluff its an extremely good weapon.

I would say we can safely say the Sisters are in the top elite of human troops. They stand up well to the Imperial guard elite and in most cases have superior gear.

Astartes are more like biological androids than humans, they are totally genetically rewritten to be like their primarch and and full of implants...so there is really nothing human about them, they don't even have proper human feelings. So comparing a bio-android to a human seems a unfair compareson.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Y
Also, chapter masters are sometimes equipped with the best of the best armour, weaponry as well as their body guards... What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour? Are they going to engage the chapter masters and his body guard in hand to hand combat?.

Well they are either going to send zephirim sisters armed with power swords or send a couple of repentia with evicerator chainsword designed to cut tanks appart or they are going to shoot at them some more. Yeah if the safest most efficient tactic doesn't work you try for plan B. The fact that Sisters can be used to purge rebellious chapter and have been succesful in the past doesn't mean they are always succesful either. Everybody loses a battle once in a while. An elite strike force of veteran Sisters of Battle armed with the best weapons their Order can provide under the leadership of a militant inquisitor and access to his resources and intelligence is certainly well adapted to launch an attack on a defiant Chapter Master and his close guard. In fact, you probably won't find anything better to do the task in the Imperium.

epronovost wrote:
An elite strike force of veteran Sisters of Battle armed with the best weapons their Order can provide under the leadership of a militant inquisitor and access to his resources and intelligence is certainly well adapted to launch an attack on a defiant Chapter Master and his close guard. In fact, you probably won't find anything better to do the task in the Imperium.

Uh, Space Marines? Specifically the Space Wolves.

I mean we know this has been done before, more than once.

Kayback wrote:

epronovost wrote:
An elite strike force of veteran Sisters of Battle armed with the best weapons their Order can provide under the leadership of a militant inquisitor and access to his resources and intelligence is certainly well adapted to launch an attack on a defiant Chapter Master and his close guard. In fact, you probably won't find anything better to do the task in the Imperium.

Uh, Space Marines? Specifically the Space Wolves.

I mean we know this has been done before, more than once.

Except the Space Wolves are now distrusted by the Imperium authority and believed to be almost traitors. They were almost purged by the Sisters of Battle themselves, but the conflict was solved diplomatically and the SIsters withdrew from Fenris before the main thrust of their assault. The Space Wolves were then threatened several more time. You don't send a Chapter that walks on the fine edge between unorthodoxy and heresy to purge potential traitors and heretics.

As I mentionned before Space Marines are known to be more loyal to each other than the central administration of the Imperium, the Church of Mars or the Ecclesiarchy who have authority over what is or isn't treason or heresy. There is a chance that any Space Marine you send to quell another rebellious Space Marines will refuse to follow through with such an order due to ancient bonds and alliances that Chapters entertain with one another. With the exception of the Minautors, the High Lords of Terra don't especially trust Space Marines to fight other Space Marines unless they are Chaos Marines.

epronovost wrote:

Except the Space Wolves are now distrusted by the Imperium authority and believed to be almost traitors. They were almost purged by the Sisters of Battle themselves, but the conflict was solved diplomatically and the SIsters withdrew from Fenris before the main thrust of their assault. The Space Wolves were then threatened several more time. You don't send a Chapter that walks on the fine edge between unorthodoxy and heresy to purge potential traitors and heretics.

You could if you offered them the opportunity to buy themselves back into good graces, almost like a Penal Legion.

I wasn't arguing that the SoB aren't used to censure errant Marines, the question was asked who, in the Imperium of Man, could fight better than SoB vs Marines. Other Marines.

I'm all for the Sisters being on par with the Marines because I love their models and have a (small) contingent in my home brew Chapter. Something something needed to maintain the Marine Chapels, something something rule of cool.

Kayback wrote:

You could if you offered them the opportunity to buy themselves back into good graces, almost like a Penal Legion.

That would require admission of some guilt on their part and for them to step on their pride, their tradition and the bonds they have towad other Chapters and Space Marines. That's not the sort of things that is going to happen reliably. It also doesn't help that most unorthodix Space Marines Chapters, those most at risk of censure, aren't obviously "wrong" in their critique of the orthodoxy of the Imperium. The Sisters are defenders of that new orthodoxy and don't count many friends amongst Space Marines.

epronovost wrote:They were almost purged by the Sisters of Battle themselves

That's a hell of an exaggeration. The Sisters gave up after three weeks accomplishing very little, even after sending three order to bring them to heel.

You don't send a Chapter that walks on the fine edge between unorthodoxy and heresy to purge potential traitors and heretics.

No, you ask a Chapter which might have animosity against the Chapter you're trying to censure, or call in a Chapter who are known to be pro-Ecclesiarchy/Inquisitorial, or have favours to be called in.

Flesh Tearers? Unlikely. Red Hunters? Much more so.

With the exception of the Minautors, the High Lords of Terra don't especially trust Space Marines to fight other Space Marines unless they are Chaos Marines.

I think there's a difference between asking Marines to fight other Marines, and pointing Marines in the direction of more unorthodox brethren. After all - look how Badab turned out.

I don't think it's so much "Marines are more loyal to eachother than the Imperium" - because I think that "self loyalty" is to Marines of the same Chapter, not necessarily a random Chapter you've never met. I think it's more a case of "Marines don't like being told what to do, especially not to get tied up in an inter-Chapter war".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't think it's so much "Marines are more loyal to eachother than the Imperium" - because I think that "self loyalty" is to Marines of the same Chapter, not necessarily a random Chapter you've never met. I think it's more a case of "Marines don't like being told what to do, especially not to get tied up in an inter-Chapter war".

Your position is fairly plausible and makes for a good distinction , but the result remains the same though. The central government of the Imperium still doesn't get what it wants reliably in that instence from Space Marines and are much better served by turning the the Sisters of Battle to obtain reliable result (in that instence the purge of a Chapter suspected of treason or heresy).

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You are either delusional or trolling. You have taken a short scenario in a journal about sisters assassinating a chapter master and turned it into purging a whole chapter, with weapons so ornate and expensive, marines couldn't even get hold of them if they wanted to.

You will probably claim that is my head canon, but you are ignoring everything in recent fluff to suit your agenda and setting. That is head canon.

Good points, except that is not what he said at all.

So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.

Sisters will absolutely be used to fight Marines, of course they will but let's try not to build sisters up as the IoMs go to anti-marine force. there's simply no evidance of that. Now that said I imagine sisters are the go to force when they need someone willing to fight and kill marines for some bs political reason that no marine chapter would agree to (perhaps because it's a blatent violation of the independance of the Adeptus Astartes)

BrianDavion wrote:So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.

Sisters will absolutely be used to fight Marines, of course they will but let's try not to build sisters up as the IoMs go to anti-marine force. there's simply no evidance of that. Now that said I imagine sisters are the go to force when they need someone willing to fight and kill marines for some bs political reason that no marine chapter would agree to (perhaps because it's a blatent violation of the independance of the Adeptus Astartes)

That's what I'm thinking too.

Again, a great deal of inter-Space Marine, and even just conflict against Space Marines from within the Imperium, comes nearly always from political reasons, not heresy. The Euxcine Incident, where the Minotaurs basically near exterminate two Chapters in one blow, has absolutely no heresy present at all in it - in fact, it's an arbitration matter which the Minotaurs completely overstep on.

To add more evidence to the "the Sisters aren't exactly the 'anti-marine' force" pile, I'd draw attention to the Watcher of the Throne series, where:

I'd love to remember where I read it, as it is official source, but when chapter transgressions are suspected, a council of five other chapter masters form to essentially put the chapter on trial and deliberate if the accusations are true and also an appropriate punishment if it is true.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour?

Shot again, of course.
What a weird question.
And then maybe power maul or blessed weapons to the face.

Kayback wrote:
I wasn't arguing that the SoB aren't used to censure errant Marines, the question was asked who, in the Imperium of Man, could fight better than SoB vs Marines. Other Marines.

Well, depends on the Sisters, and depends on the marines. Veteran Sisters with the best wargear and intel are going to fare much much better than scouts with no idea what they are going into, and similarly veterans marines with the best wargear and intel are going to do much better than some novice with no idea what they are going into.
And some chapters are going to be much better at it than other.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour?

Shot again, of course.
What a weird question.
And then maybe power maul or blessed weapons to the face.

Kayback wrote:
I wasn't arguing that the SoB aren't used to censure errant Marines, the question was asked who, in the Imperium of Man, could fight better than SoB vs Marines. Other Marines.

Well, depends on the Sisters, and depends on the marines. Veteran Sisters with the best wargear and intel are going to fare much much better than scouts with no idea what they are going into, and similarly veterans marines with the best wargear and intel are going to do much better than some novice with no idea what they are going into.
And some chapters are going to be much better at it than other.

In the semantics game I would refer to Scouts as Scouts or Marine Scouts, not "Marines".

Pretty much everything I have read from BL says no, but then again, the lore fluctuate from one author to another.

BrianDavion wrote:
So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.

Well, during the Badab War, the Imperium send Space Marines Chapters to quell the rebellion of Huron in its egg. They trusted Space Marines this time and it was a grave mistake. They failed to stop Huron and his followers before they went fullblown traitors. We could say the Inquisition dropped the ball in this conflict which was treated as a trade dispute of some sort for a while instead of an open rebellion. As to why Sisters weren't there we can propose a million suggestion that ranges from there were available Sisters of Battle force available in the area at the moment it was needed to the person in charge underestimated the gravity of the situation passing by they didn't have time to secure the support of a Sister of Battle Order before the entire thin blew out. It's pure conjecture since the writer of the story didn't care nor needed to explain in detail why some (very unpopular at the time) sub-faction wasn't present or mentioned during the conflict. We could say that of any conflict in which X faction isn't present in mass. The Badab War included the Mechanicus as one of the first party to be aggrieved by Huron and the Astral Claws. I don't think there has been much mention of titans or skitarii cohort being deployed to crush them even though the Mechanicus possess those assets. The Badab War was conceived as Marine vs Marine conflict. There isn't even mention of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard being involved in the conflict, but there is mention of over half a dozen Space Marine Chapters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
To add more evidence to the "the Sisters aren't exactly the 'anti-marine' force" pile, I'd draw attention to the Watcher of the Throne series, where a coup is hatched against Guilliman and his reforms allowing Custodes to be more active out-system, a coup which includes the former Ecclesiarch on the HLOT siding against Guilliman. Most notably, they don't call in Sisters of Battle to deploy en masse and consolidate power, but the Minotaurs Chapter instead - even though the Ecclesiarch certainly has the clout to call in PLENTY of Sisters if they so desired.

The key words there are coup and former Ecclesiarch not current Ecclesiarch. I would also note that the raison d'être of the Sisters of Battle is to precisely prevent coup of that sort by the Ecclesiarchy. Yes, they are religious enforcers and under the command of the Church, but they are simultaneously charged with the duty of peventing any coup à la Vandire. They are the sword and shield of the Ecclesiarchy, but also a dagger at its throat. The Sisterhood suported Guilliman rise to power. If the former Ecclesiarch had called them, chances are they would have vandired him and added his head to another one of their banner for heresy. It's not even a situation of either or. You could call in the Minotaurs AND the Sisterhood for a coup. In fact you probably should. If htey had just the Minotaurs its probably because they were not confident in attracting the service of others, but were certain the Minotaur's Chapter Master would not rat them out to Guilliman for plotting against him.

epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.

Well, during the Badab War, the Imperium send Space Marines Chapters to quell the rebellion of Huron in its egg. They trusted Space Marines this time and it was a grave mistake. They failed to stop Huron and his followers before they went fullblown traitors. We could say the Inquisition dropped the ball in this conflict which was treated as a trade dispute of some sort for a while instead of an open rebellion. As to why Sisters weren't there we can propose a million suggestion that ranges from there were available Sisters of Battle force available in the area at the moment it was needed to the person in charge underestimated the gravity of the situation passing by they didn't have time to secure the support of a Sister of Battle Order before the entire thin blew out. It's pure conjecture since the writer of the story didn't care nor needed to explain in detail why some (very unpopular at the time) sub-faction wasn't present or mentioned during the conflict. We could say that of any conflict in which X faction isn't present in mass. The Badab War included the Mechanicus as one of the first party to be aggrieved by Huron and the Astral Claws. I don't think there has been much mention of titans or skitarii cohort being deployed to crush them even though the Mechanicus possess those assets. The Badab War was conceived as Marine vs Marine conflict. There isn't even mention of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard being involved in the conflict, but there is mention of over half a dozen Space Marine Chapters.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
To add more evidence to the "the Sisters aren't exactly the 'anti-marine' force" pile, I'd draw attention to the Watcher of the Throne series, where a coup is hatched against Guilliman and his reforms allowing Custodes to be more active out-system, a coup which includes the former Ecclesiarch on the HLOT siding against Guilliman. Most notably, they don't call in Sisters of Battle to deploy en masse and consolidate power, but the Minotaurs Chapter instead - even though the Ecclesiarch certainly has the clout to call in PLENTY of Sisters if they so desired.

The key words there are coup and former Ecclesiarch not current Ecclesiarch. I would also note that the raison d'être of the Sisters of Battle is to precisely prevent coup of that sort by the Ecclesiarchy. Yes, they are religious enforcers and under the command of the Church, but they are simultaneously charged with the duty of peventing any coup à la Vandire. They are the sword and shield of the Ecclesiarchy, but also a dagger at its throat. The Sisterhood suported Guilliman rise to power. If the former Ecclesiarch had called them, chances are they would have vandired him and added his head to another one of their banner for heresy. It's not even a situation of either or. You could call in the Minotaurs AND the Sisterhood for a coup. In fact you probably should. If htey had just the Minotaurs its probably because they were not confident in attracting the service of others, but were certain the Minotaur's Chapter Master would not rat them out to Guilliman for plotting against him.

I think you are wrong on this point about sisters being meant to prevent another Vandire. In the sisters Omnibus and all the established lore surrounding sisters, including books about the Cadian pride (Rubbish book btw) it clearly shows the Sisters are incapable or at least completely unwilling to act contrary to the churches decree. Even when that order is to slaughter civilians in a crowd. Sisters are, by there very nature, so over zealous and fervant, that they are literally blinded from and by the church. How many times does this need to be shown in the Fluff? Sisters are completely sworn to the edicts of the service of the church, and are willing to break any and all rules or imperial laws to accomplish those edicts (See: Sisters of Ebon Chalice breaking the law that Sisters don't kill sisters, when one of their order was found to be warp tainted (Omnibus book 3). Also, the main character of the Omnibus Sister whatsherface(AKASister my bolter is my diplomacy skill) making the choice she made during the Hollos Incident.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you are wrong on this point about sisters being meant to prevent another Vandire.

In their older codex, I don't know if it's mention they are clearly mentionned as protector of the faith and designed to keep the Church in check for its own failabilities (hence also the non-militant Sister Orders most notably the Dialogus and Famulus). The first SoB novel, Faith and Fire, see the Sisterhood killing a renegade Bishop and his priest goons for plotting a coup. Now, I dont know if this has changed in the newer codex, but to my best knowledge its indeed part of their mission.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you are wrong on this point about sisters being meant to prevent another Vandire. In the sisters Omnibus and all the established lore surrounding sisters, including books about the Cadian pride (Rubbish book btw) it clearly shows the Sisters are incapable or at least completely unwilling to act contrary to the churches decree. Even when that order is to slaughter civilians in a crowd. Sisters are, by there very nature, so over zealous and fervant, that they are literally blinded from and by the church. How many times does this need to be shown in the Fluff?

Sisters of battle background 101 - (original codex p16 but repeated elsewhere) "... no legal standing to oppose Thor and his argument that the Adepta Sororitas would regulate the Ecclesiarchy as much as enforce its will did not fall on deaf ears"
Expanded on in the witch hunters codex, pages 5 and 6 and the convocation of nephilim.

Beyond that the abbess is technically the equal of the ecclesiarch in rank (a high lord) - while the sisters are the militant forces of the church they are not a force under the absolute control of the church. If the ecclesiarch says one thing and the abbess tells him to sod off then strictly speaking her word is law.

I refer you here for the sisters acting contrary to the orders of the church.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/tales-from-vigilus-13-aqua-sanctus/

Given the sisters history they are always going to have one eye on the church and any preacher that strays from the sisters understanding of the faith.

epronovost wrote:
Now, I dont know if this has changed in the newer codex, but to my best knowledge its indeed part of their mission.

It hasn't been changed in the newer codex. Fezzik has already gotten multiple facts wrong in this thread (he believes that "the custodes were slaughtering Sisters" during the Age of Blood, and refuse to give any source for this statement that contradicts every lore I read on the issue, for instance), and refuse to even acknowledge it. Keep this in mind, and double-check every thing he says, as it is quite likely to include very... creative interpretations. He made his opinion, and he'll take it as fact, whether you want it or not. So, .

epronovost wrote:Well, during the Badab War, the Imperium send Space Marines Chapters to quell the rebellion of Huron in its egg. They trusted Space Marines this time and it was a grave mistake. They failed to stop Huron and his followers before they went fullblown traitors. We could say the Inquisition dropped the ball in this conflict which was treated as a trade dispute of some sort for a while instead of an open rebellion.

Eh, not exactly how Badab started or even why there was Marine interference.

When Huron declared his secession, literally no-one cared except his immediate neighbours. Astartes were only brought in because the Fire Hawks agreed to get involved and sort the mess out, not from any immediate Terran decree. It was only after things escalated and the web of allies and enemies grew thicker that the HLOT saw reason to intervene. AND most notably, even after Huron refused to submit to Inquistorial authority, they didn't jump straight to killing them, instead wanting to bring him into custody. And they hired four Astartes Chapters (including a First Founder) to see it done. Why not Sisters? Hell, they were able to even deploy Ordo Hereticus Stormtroopers by the end of the war, the exact Ordo that the Sororitas should be aligned with. There could be many reasons why not. But, in the same vein, there could be many reasons why Astartes aren't called in to deal with renegade Chapters and Sisters are sometimes pushed into the role.

As to why Sisters weren't there we can propose a million suggestion that ranges from there were available Sisters of Battle force available in the area at the moment it was needed to the person in charge underestimated the gravity of the situation passing by they didn't have time to secure the support of a Sister of Battle Order before the entire thin blew out.

Over a several years long campaign?

There isn't even mention of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard being involved in the conflict, but there is mention of over half a dozen Space Marine Chapters.

Actually, there is, I believe, of Hereticus Stormtroopers being deployed at the Palace of Thorns.

The key words there are coup and former Ecclesiarch not current Ecclesiarch.

Still an Ecclesiarch, who likely has considerable political pull.

I would also note that the raison d'être of the Sisters of Battle is to precisely prevent coup of that sort by the Ecclesiarchy.

Not sure how far I agree with that, especially seeing as there's people here also claiming that the Sisters are the Ecclesiarchy's prized possession and utterly loyal to them.

It's one or the other, really.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Actually, there is, I believe, of Hereticus Stormtroopers being deployed at the Palace of Thorns.

I indeed did miss the late intervention of inquisitorial stormtroopers, but there is no mention of PDF elements, Imperial Guards, Skitarii or Titan legions. What sort of war lasting about 10 years I believe doesn't attract any members of these forces?

Not sure how far I agree with that, especially seeing as there's people here also claiming that the Sisters are the Ecclesiarchy's prized possession and utterly loyal to them. It's one or the other, really.

It's actually both since these aren't mutually exclusive positions. The Sisters are uterely loyal to a specific enterpretation of the Ecclesirarchy teaching and to the specific place of the Ecclesiarchy in the Imperium's governance system. If you try to push the Ecclesiarchy up, down or to another place, the Sisterhood will oppose you by all means necessary. If you are an orthodox and politically conservative member of the Ecclesiarchy, the Sisterhood is your greatest asset. The members of the Ecclesiarchy who aren't orthodox and politically conservative have the bad tendency of getting killed or pushed aside by the Sisterhood influence, alternatively by the Inquisition and by the orthodox and conservative members who can count on the support and influence of these two organisations to diminish the influence of the reformists. Thus the conservative and orthodox faction dominates the Ecclesiarchy inner politics and, in turn, they give the Sisterhood massive support to retain their dominant position.