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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
What did they do to my Noise Marines! Why did they increase by 3 per model, why did sonic blasters go up, why did the Doom Siren go up too?

Did someone on the team genuinely fear the noise marine of all things?

A lot of stuff simply went up, which gives them more room to adjust points in relation to other units.

Yeah I'm not buying that of all things the Noise Marines somehow needed to jump up to 2 less points then a Plague Marine while their gear gets even more costly at the same time. Noise Marines of all things did not need this, not many people took them before.

I find it particularly weird for Noise Marines (and Warp Talons). A lot of units got their equipment zeroed out, and their base points went up. Sometimes its a net increase (immortals), sometimes its a wash and sometimes its actually a drop.
For these two units, they got hit twice, which makes them stand out.

the_scotsman wrote:
Phew, the world was spared the scourge of my super-competitive "3 squads of storm guardians+Avatar of Khaine+one squad of each type of aspect warriors on foot" list.

Up to 2,350 points. XD GJ GW! A dire avenger now = a chaos space marine. Yep, those models sure are the same level of usefulness.

Dire Avenger previously - 8 + 3.
Dire Avenger now - 13 + 0

Powerglaive + Shimmershield also went down 4.

They went up 2. CSM went up 3.

Voss wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
What did they do to my Noise Marines! Why did they increase by 3 per model, why did sonic blasters go up, why did the Doom Siren go up too?

Did someone on the team genuinely fear the noise marine of all things?

A lot of stuff simply went up, which gives them more room to adjust points in relation to other units.

Yeah I'm not buying that of all things the Noise Marines somehow needed to jump up to 2 less points then a Plague Marine while their gear gets even more costly at the same time. Noise Marines of all things did not need this, not many people took them before.

I find it particularly weird for Noise Marines (and Warp Talons). A lot of units got their equipment zeroed out, and their base points went up. Sometimes its a net increase (immortals), sometimes its a wash and sometimes its actually a drop.
For these two units, they got hit twice, which makes them stand out.

Yeah. Of all the things people are going to try and sell me. The idea that a Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster is more expensive then an Intercessor is not anything close to something I can accept.

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

And you also pay points for the CC. Even if you don't do that, they're *still* better than Grots or Cultists.

And will only ever come in blocks of 10. Cultists can get stronger force multipliers. Grots can be shields.

And I'm not saying it is the right price, but as stated before - there's a lot more to consider

I mean yeah, you're never going to be comparing things purely in a vacuum, but really, when the only thing Grots do that Guardmen don't do vastly better is a stratagem that you're paying CPs for on top of the points, I just can't see how this is justifiable. I mean, Grots don't even get Clan bonuses.

Voss wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
You know, I was just thinking the other day "boy, I really want to see yet more Space Marines in 9th, there aren't enough of those around". And thanks to this, we will! In fact, first impressions are that SM, Custodes and Guard have absolutely made out like bandits. I'm willing to wait and see but this stuff looks like they've done xenos real dirty.

Guard did pretty mediocre, honestly. I kind of agree with Goonhammer that it seems to be split basically into 4 categories: Big Winners, Kinda Winners, So-So, and Losers. If you're so-so and above you're probably fine. RIP nids and GSC.

I'm reading through that article at the moment.
I largely agree with them... except about Craftworld eldar. They make a big deal about twin shuriken catapults, waves serpents and for some reason falcons being good things, but that doesn't balance out the absolute stomping that the core troops and other signature units got.

Except for clowns, eldar (craft and dark) got splatted by this update.

Goonhammer generally writes from a competitive point of view and if viewed in that way, CWE did actually get off relatively lightly. Weirdly, all of their good competitive units saw relatively low increases and some of the most improved units in 9th (War Walkers) saw practically nothing. Meanwhile all of their irrelevant, sub-optimal or niche units stayed that way or have gotten EVEN WORSE. I had been trying out Storm Guardians in my test games as cheap objective holders, but now that they're more expensive than an Ork Boy they're going back on the shelf.

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

Faqs are not going to do things like stat lines and strats. They will be limited fixes to get things that 9th broke working in some way.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Before the inevitable flood of "What where they thinking?! My unit X went up Y points, the faction is trash tier now and Warhammer is doomed anyway" comments, please keep in mind that it is not just your army or your unit.

Everybody is getting adjustments and we have to look at the whole picture.

Doesn't change plenty of ridiculous stuff there.

Stompa going up. It's not worth even 800 let alone 850.
Grots 5. Same as guardsmen. Gw developers must be using drugs if they think that makes sense.
Immortals same price regardless of weapon when 1 is obviously better against anything but 2+ save when within 12".
Sob walker melee weapons same price. Lol. One is simply inferior version.

Gw hasn't done real attempt to balance.

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

Don't bank on changes like that. Maybe traits, but that is unlikely, too.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I'm against the assumption that equal points means equal capability among different armies.

Orks use Grots in a completely different way than AM uses their Guardsmen. Too many variables in wargear, stratagems, army choices and army tactic approach in general, to compare these two.

Yes, in a vacuum Guardsmen are better. Better profile and equipment. But it is not Guardsmen against Grots.


I'm not saying that the points are (un)balanced, yet.
I want to get some games in before judging for myself.

Guardmen does same roles grot do and then some more.

As is biggest reason to take grots(fill bat's for cp) died in 9th already. Evee had they stayed same they would have been hit by nerfbat

 Trickstick wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

Faqs are not going to do things like stat lines and strats. They will be limited fixes to get things that 9th broke working in some way.

Considering a twin multimelta is somehow 10 points more expensive than the far superior twin lascannon, I would consider that "broke"

On the bright side, that 5 point Guardsmen change, that everyone rumoured every CA, finally happened.

(-:

tneva82 wrote:

Sob walker melee weapons same price. Lol. One is simply inferior version.

And which one is that?

The one that makes 5 S8 AP3 D2?
Or the one that makes 15 S6 AP2 D1?

Because those serve two different purposes.

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

On the plus side - it's very useful to see the points changes all at once. I was able to get a good idea how my current lists match up against others.

I don't know anything about Psychic Actions, new Stratagems, other changes that might be coming to justify some of these points changes.

The one thing that really stands out is that anything with a Jump Pack is a lot more expensive. Taking this to mean mobility is more important than any other factor.

 techsoldaten wrote:

The one thing that really stands out is that anything with a Jump Pack is a lot more expensive. Taking this to mean mobility is more important than any other factor.

So far in my experience it is.

Oh and condemptor boltgun(the basic non primaris bolter with d3 dam vs psyker) nobody took except as random point filler with no 1pts upgrades left besides that) got 400p%-price hike.

Imagine if incessor marines costed now 85 pts per model. That's how sensible hike it was

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

just yesterday, using old point values, I played my grot stuff against a daemon engines army and got thoroughly destroyed.

The new rules penalized me an enormous amount. my opponent was able to hand me -1 to hit on pretty much everything on the board turn 1, thanks to a piece of Dense Cover terrain, warptimed in a suicide piece to trigger a chain explosion off one of my deff dreads, which I could not CP reroll. Dealt ~30MW to my army for spending a single CP. Then was able to basically effortlessly deny me every point I tried to score by shooting whatever squads I put onto objectives with min CSM squads sitting in cover with reaper chaincannons. the game ended 4pts to I think 11 or 12 turn 5.

The one thing I'll give 9th is that there were models on the board at the end of turn 5, an appreciable amount, the new cover and removal of overwatch definitely made the game somewhat less deadly.

But you'll just see no light infantry until the point nerfs are reverted. There's zero reason at all to field any.lists are going to be nothing but elites and tanks with min troops for a single battalion or brigade until the next CA unless they FAQ it.

The one thing that really stands out is that anything with a Jump Pack is a lot more expensive. Taking this to mean mobility is more important than any other factor.

Same feeling as Daedalous81- played a ton of test games this weekend. The ability to either move fast or the ability to reposition (via psychic powers, artifacts, or strats) are all looking to be REALLY strong.

Based on the weekend, my foot slogging Death Guard are getting retooled to be a Rhino Rush army ...

But you'll just see no light infantry until the point nerfs are reverted. There's zero reason at all to field any.lists are going to be nothing but elites and tanks with min troops for a single battalion or brigade until the next CA unless they FAQ it.

I think most of us were assuming that based just on the previous rules leaks. This had nothing to do with points and was more based on the rules themselves. Having played a lot of "9th" games myself over the weekend, I will agree that most armies aren't going to deploy a ton of light infantry. However, our resident Guard player found a lot of good uses for them (we were all genuinely surprised by it) so it may be a case-by-case thing?

Well my (in progress) Guard list went from 1996 to 2330. Hadn't finished buying all that I had intended yet, so I may just stop now and see what I have adds up to. No need to buy more.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

On the plus side - it's very useful to see the points changes all at once. I was able to get a good idea how my current lists match up against others.

I don't know anything about Psychic Actions, new Stratagems, other changes that might be coming to justify some of these points changes.

The one thing that really stands out is that anything with a Jump Pack is a lot more expensive. Taking this to mean mobility is more important than any other factor.

Are you sure about the 'a lot more expensive part?' The jump pack units I've seen- raptors, praetorians, wraiths- aren't particularly (it helps that a lot of weapons went to 0)

My DE are very sad.

Their points makes ZERO SENSE, all weapons are basically 5 points now, even tho some are 2x as strong as others, but yet they are both 5pts on the same model.

Cronos went up almost twice as much as the Talos when no one plays it anyways.

Hellions went up 3pts when their ONLY change to be playable was to stay the same points.

All Troupes +3pts so that means no one will take more than the 3 from raiding force.

Dis cannon went up, which is ok, but went up 10pts over 5pts.

Flyers went up when all DE players testing 9th basically said they are not worht it at current points, meaning new points are even worst.

My list will now look like everyone else something like this.
Raiding Force
Drazhar
Kabal
Ravager
Venom

Archon
Kabal
Ravager x2
Venom

Haemon x2
Wrack x2
Talos x6

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Sob walker melee weapons same price. Lol. One is simply inferior version.

And which one is that?

The one that makes 5 S8 AP3 D2?
Or the one that makes 15 S6 AP2 D1?

Because those serve two different purposes.

Even going against an ideal target(rhino) the buzzblades only do 1.5 more wounds on average Against a Knight it's .5, against an intercessor it's .2; against any other toughness level outside of 12 the Flail does more, also on any single wound models and on most models with Invuls greater than 6++ or no invul and a save worse than 4++.

Basically the flail is the better weapon unless you're SURE you're up against a ton of rhinos.

You know, I'm beginning to think that this is a quick and dirty placeholder job until codexes come. Not a good look really, but what can you do?

Tycho wrote:

Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

Lol. This is sooo familiar. It's always "but but but". What'" next after faq fails? Points make sense with new codex?

Faq will sort out things that make no sense mechanically. Not change datasheets or balance

 Amishprn86 wrote:
My DE are very sad.

Their points makes ZERO SENSE, all weapons are basically 5 points now, even tho some are 2x as strong as others, but yet they are both 5pts on the same model.

Cronos went up almost twice as much as the Talos when no one plays it anyways.

Hellions went up 3pts when their ONLY change to be playable was to stay the same points.

All Troupes +3pts so that means no one will take more than the 3 from raiding force.

Dis cannon went up, which is ok, but went up 10pts over 5pts.

Flyers went up when all DE players testing 9th basically said they are not worht it at current points, meaning new points are even worst.

My list will now look like everyone else something like this.
Raiding Force
Drazhar
Kabal
Ravager
Venom

Archon
Kabal
Ravager x2
Venom

Haemon x2
Wrack x2
Talos x6

On the plus side...Blast Pistols went down to 5 points

@Amishprn86- been feeling it for a while, but the points really reinforce the idea that the only way to salvage eldar is new books and a massive overhaul.

Pricey paper tiger suicide units just aren't workable for 9th.

Just a general statement here: GW uses points to encourage armies to be built in certain ways. The reason Grots are the same price as Guardsman despite being inferior means that GW would rather you take Guardsman in an IG army than take a Grot in an Ork army. Same with 6 point Cultists. They're intentionally overcosted to encourage you to take CSM instead (though not so overcosted as to be completely useless if you do want to take them). Some of the other changes are . . . odd to say the least (who took Obelisks anyway?), but Grots and Guardsman being the same price has a simple explanation.

 Bosskelot wrote:

Goonhammer generally writes from a competitive point of view and if viewed in that way, CWE did actually get off relatively lightly. Weirdly, all of their good competitive units saw relatively low increases and some of the most improved units in 9th (War Walkers) saw practically nothing. Meanwhile all of their irrelevant, sub-optimal or niche units stayed that way or have gotten EVEN WORSE. I had been trying out Storm Guardians in my test games as cheap objective holders, but now that they're more expensive than an Ork Boy they're going back on the shelf.

Wanna bet what kind of armies eldar playtester likes to run?

ERJAK wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Sob walker melee weapons same price. Lol. One is simply inferior version.

And which one is that?

The one that makes 5 S8 AP3 D2?
Or the one that makes 15 S6 AP2 D1?

Because those serve two different purposes.

Even going against an ideal target(rhino) the buzzblades only do 1.5 more wounds on average Against a Knight it's .5, against an intercessor it's .2; against any other toughness level outside of 12 the Flail does more, also on any single wound models and on most models with Invuls greater than 6++ or no invul and a save worse than 4++.

Basically the flail is the better weapon unless you're SURE you're up against a ton of rhinos.

That doesn't seem like a distinction worthy of a notable point difference does it though? You drop the buzzblades and suddenly they're much better against the targets they're good at and equal to the flails - why then take the flails?

 EnTyme wrote:
Just a general statement here: GW uses points to encourage armies to be built in certain ways. The reason Grots are the same price as Guardsman despite being inferior means that GW would rather you take Guardsman in an IG army than take a Grot in an Ork army. Same with 6 point Cultists. They're intentionally overcosted to encourage you to take CSM instead (though not so overcosted as to be completely useless if you do want to take them). Some of the other changes are . . . odd to say the least (who took Obelisks anyway?), but Grots and Guardsman being the same price has a simple explanation.

If gw really did that then they are idiots who missed whole meaning of points