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2020/07/13 19:18:03
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Honestly i've had much more fun playing since i stopped minmaxing all my lists and started bringing the models i like, garagehammer is a win in my books.
Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/07/13 19:22:10
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Karol wrote: Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
And Karol out of left field.
Though potential bad news. Seems like GK and TS lost the smite exception.
2020/07/13 19:23:02
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Karol wrote: Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
...which one was this? Not the one with 5 point hf right?
2020/07/13 19:23:59
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm surprised people are at all arguing with Kan about Guard.
Everyone should know by now that they could have 1 point guard with space marine stats and he'd argue that they'd be balanced because of reasons... Or more likely that they still are too weak.
Meh. Everyone should know by now that balancing Guard isn't going to be done by points, it will be done by actually making the book have choices.
2020/07/13 19:28:50
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Karol wrote: Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
And Karol out of left field.
Though potential bad news. Seems like GK and TS lost the smite exception.
thank god.
Smite spam was an blight upon the meta in 8th at the start, only fair that it get's curbed this instant.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/07/13 19:39:15
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
ccs wrote: Just relax, they'll fix all the pt values in CA 2021.
I am not sure, if this is a joke or not. But I had a heart laugh, so thank you for this, even if it was not ment as one.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/07/13 19:39:37
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Karol wrote: Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
And Karol out of left field.
Though potential bad news. Seems like GK and TS lost the smite exception.
thank god.
Smite spam was an blight upon the meta in 8th at the start, only fair that it get's curbed this instant.
Is it curbed or is it more spammable by everyone?
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/13 19:41:12
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Smite spam was an blight upon the meta in 8th at the start, only fair that it get's curbed this instant.
Unless it was an army's only reliable way to cause damage ... sorry Tsons this one hurts!
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/07/13 19:41:53
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Karol wrote: Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
And Karol out of left field.
Though potential bad news. Seems like GK and TS lost the smite exception.
thank god.
Smite spam was an blight upon the meta in 8th at the start, only fair that it get's curbed this instant.
Nobody lost anything. Brotherhood of sorcerers/psykers is a fixed rule in the Ritual of the damned. And it includes the smite tax evasion.
14000
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4000
2020/07/13 19:42:50
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Honestly i've had much more fun playing since i stopped minmaxing all my lists and started bringing the models i like, garagehammer is a win in my books.
Still, for many people that are more competitive and not in the US, having competitive be a mess will be annoying since smaller tournaments might start firing for them.
I so, soon badly want to snark off about the US being garage-hammer-only until November 2024, but there's no way I start that and don't wind up running afoul of the ban on politics.
I have to admit Garage Hammer has it's advantages. I've never indulged in it before this.
Karol wrote: Nice and balanced. Finaly the weaker units have proper cost, while stuff that was good was not made unplayable by a gigantic points hike. First FAQ/errata GW puts out that I actualy like, not couting the PA book.
And Karol out of left field.
Though potential bad news. Seems like GK and TS lost the smite exception.
Well I like it. Hikes were suppose to happen to everyone, and of course GW is bad at doing points, because they fix them around some idea of armies being playtested by them with certain rules in the future, but between that future and what we get we play with different rules, plus on top of everything GW may have changed the design focus in those 6 months, so armies may end up totaly out of wack with their point costs vs the game rules they have to be played with.
But for me personaly, this is all good. I never run psycanons on termintors or strikes, only on paladins. I use termintors and they actualy went down in point costs. I never had units armed with, 4pts per model now, falchions, only with swords and halabards and those are now both free. Strikes aren't over costed, paladins werent' made unplayable with some crazy hike. We don't have jump packs, so no fly tax happened. And interceptors with their pseudo flight are still good.
the smite change, if it is real, is not fun. But I had worse times in 8th, plus I think we can still pull of 2-3 smites easily, maybe other damage spells are going to get used now. before taking them with smite, even a baby one, was foolish. And gate is a great spell now. So all in all the changes seem great, comparing to what they could have been.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/07/13 19:47:01
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Thanks Daed. 50 actually, but didn't twin heavy bolters go up? So not quite that. Maybe there's something in the new fw books that explains why it didn't go down more. I'll wait and see before getting salty.
2020/07/13 19:48:03
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Honestly, this whole 'all points go up' thing I don't think should have happened. I don't see it having a massive income on sales, and just strikes me as a way to rile up the fanbase.
2020/07/13 19:50:16
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
ArcaneHorror wrote: Honestly, this whole 'all points go up' thing I don't think should have happened. I don't see it having a massive income on sales, and just strikes me as a way to rile up the fanbase.
We now got grots at the place of guardsmen.
Scout priced CStacs.
Elysians and R&H yeeted.
Not sure , and i really liked the idea of a general hike.
Or some of the new rules, like the reserves, to a degree.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/07/13 19:54:42
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
ArcaneHorror wrote: Honestly, this whole 'all points go up' thing I don't think should have happened. I don't see it having a massive income on sales, and just strikes me as a way to rile up the fanbase.
Don't agree, It needed to happen, as too much was smooshed into the low end.
Unfortunately introducing a floor of 5 points sets up some obvious problems for people to yell about.
And there needed to be more individual judgement and less formulas.
And GW is still hung up on the elf statline for some bizarre reason. The only time they ever got it even close to right was when the errata'd the entire Dark Elf armybook away from the Always-Strike-First High Elf point values.
But the lethality of 8th/9th edition 40k just doesn't care about elf stats. In terms of dying, they're exactly the same as guard, admech or sister's stats, depending on the armor save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 19:55:02
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/13 19:56:10
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
ArcaneHorror wrote: Honestly, this whole 'all points go up' thing I don't think should have happened. I don't see it having a massive income on sales, and just strikes me as a way to rile up the fanbase.
Don't agree, It needed to happen, as too much was smooshed into the low end.
Unfortunately introducing a floor of 5 points sets up some obvious problems for people to yell about.
And there needed to be more individual judgement and less formulas.
And GW is still hung up on the elf statline for some bizarre reason. The only time they ever got it even close to right was when the errata'd the entire Dark Elf armybook away from the Always-Strike-First High Elf point values.
But the lethality of 8th/9th edition 40k just doesn't care about elf stats. In terms of dying, they're exactly the same as guard, admech or sister's stats, depending on the armor save.
Yes, but that marked bit is expensive, because they'd need someone to actually do it, or their team, can't have that.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/07/13 19:58:30
Subject: Re:The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
ArcaneHorror wrote: Honestly, this whole 'all points go up' thing I don't think should have happened. I don't see it having a massive income on sales, and just strikes me as a way to rile up the fanbase.
But not all point costs went up. Custodes didn't get substential point hikes, neither did the GK. So GW clearly noticed that those armies did not need them. And what ever people stay with 8th 1800pts lists , or move on to playing 9th with 2200pts to get their full 2000pts 8th ed ones is to be seen. Tournaments more or less will decide. If they go with 9th 2000pts /8th 1800, people will play that. In 8th ed it ended like that. What ever local tournament pack was used by people, it turned in to the core way to be played , be it ITC, ETC or those crazy rules from UK or scandinavia. I don't think many people, aside for big tournament orgs can say what is going to be the point cost range in 9th.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/07/13 19:58:39
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
I so, soon badly want to snark off about the US being garage-hammer-only until November 2024, but there's no way I start that and don't wind up running afoul of the ban on politics.
I have to admit Garage Hammer has it's advantages. I've never indulged in it before this.
I feel fortunate to live in a sane state. A group of my friends might quarantine for a week and then run a tournament. Wives permitting.
Thanks Daed. 50 actually, but didn't twin heavy bolters go up? So not quite that. Maybe there's something in the new fw books that explains why it didn't go down more. I'll wait and see before getting salty.
Yea there's the whole FW re-write, but I wouldn't expect too much for units like the Fellblade.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 20:01:34
2020/07/13 20:08:53
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Martel732 wrote: Grots costing the same as guardsmen is prima facie absurd. The burden lies with the guard players who support this to prove that these units are equivalent across many games.
Not everything is about killing power.
No? So is it about durability? Mobility? Access to weapon options? Access to support units?
Or do you not have a scenario in which unit A is better than unit B at anything so you'll just say "nuh uh" and gesture vaguely?
God, I can't believe I ever used to respect your opinion as someone to listen to on this hellsite.
I have no personal part in your quarrel with Daedalus81, but I had to chime in after reading this last bit;
I have been away from dakkadakka for quite some time (partly because low interest in 40k during the last year, but also because I got tired of the general mentality of a lot of forum members here. I blame Warseer shutting down on that last part. Seems most of the whiners found their way here.) so I have no distinct knowledge or remembrance of most of the users here, but you have in the short time I've been back established yourself as "that guy who feels compelled to whine about how bad his gretchin has become, over and over", and now I see you type this.
Have you ever considered that this forum is a "hellsite" due to the rampart negativity and pessimism spread by its own members; negativity and pessimism that you yourself help to spread right now in this very thread?
Anyway, this topic is essentially a circlejerk in complaints about 9th, an edition which I actually already like and consider a step-up from 8th in almost every way.
I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 test-games I had this weekend, but just reading this topic caused me to doubt myself whether I like 9th or not...
So I'm basically gonna scoot before I get dragged down in the cesspool of negativity where (sadly, genuinely so) so many forum members who have decided that they hate 9th before it's even officially released already are.
I have definitely seen Scotsman saying positive things about 9th, it's not all whining, all the time. He, like others, has identified 9th as being the MSU/anti-horde edition, and that's not really that controversial of a thing to say.
The frustration that you're seeing today is a result of these new points/FAQs that seem wildly out of whack with the actual state of the game. Unless in your 9th practicing, you used the new points (which I'm sure you didn't unless you're a reviewer/playtester), your point is moot. The points craziness is really where the wheels are falling off here. I was pretty optimistic about 9th too until I woke up to this crazy state of things. I don't blame anybody getting angry about it today.
MSU? Anti-Horde? Neither of those things are true. As far as I can tell. Where is the thread for this?
Ah, I can see by your oblivious nature to this statement that you have not been visiting the 9th edition thread in news and rumours. You are a wise man.
What? You mean it's not a well reasoned, rational, civil discussion on dakka? First time for everything I guess.
Are you two REALLY claiming the rules are friendly for hordes?
Are you really going to argue that the new morale rules aren't wildly beneficial for hordes?
Horde players agree going to go from losing a third of thier army to morale to losing maybe 15-20%.
Meanwhile, Elite armies are going to lose way more to morale if they bring large squads, and even if they bring MSU they wont have the firepower needed to shoot horde armies off the board.
2020/07/13 20:20:41
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Are you really going to argue that the new morale rules aren't wildly beneficial for hordes?
Horde players agree going to go from losing a third of thier army to morale to losing maybe 15-20%.
It depends on the unit. Boyz with a warboss or another large unit nearby bypassed the moral issue anyway, while gretchins got a significant benefit from the new morale rule.... except they are now 5ppm and combined with a plethora of new rules that badly affect large squads (blasts, coherency, cover...) it means that they were way better before.
2020/07/13 20:23:24
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
The coherency / engagement range rules hurt big units more than anything, both for existing on the board and for trying to fight in combat. Most horde stuff was immune to morale already, but it's a big buff for, say, daemons - though not enough to outweigh the coherency and engagement nerfs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 20:24:24
2020/07/13 20:28:24
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Martel732 wrote: Grots costing the same as guardsmen is prima facie absurd. The burden lies with the guard players who support this to prove that these units are equivalent across many games.
Not everything is about killing power.
No? So is it about durability? Mobility? Access to weapon options? Access to support units?
Or do you not have a scenario in which unit A is better than unit B at anything so you'll just say "nuh uh" and gesture vaguely?
God, I can't believe I ever used to respect your opinion as someone to listen to on this hellsite.
I have no personal part in your quarrel with Daedalus81, but I had to chime in after reading this last bit;
I have been away from dakkadakka for quite some time (partly because low interest in 40k during the last year, but also because I got tired of the general mentality of a lot of forum members here. I blame Warseer shutting down on that last part. Seems most of the whiners found their way here.) so I have no distinct knowledge or remembrance of most of the users here, but you have in the short time I've been back established yourself as "that guy who feels compelled to whine about how bad his gretchin has become, over and over", and now I see you type this.
Have you ever considered that this forum is a "hellsite" due to the rampart negativity and pessimism spread by its own members; negativity and pessimism that you yourself help to spread right now in this very thread?
Anyway, this topic is essentially a circlejerk in complaints about 9th, an edition which I actually already like and consider a step-up from 8th in almost every way.
I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 test-games I had this weekend, but just reading this topic caused me to doubt myself whether I like 9th or not...
So I'm basically gonna scoot before I get dragged down in the cesspool of negativity where (sadly, genuinely so) so many forum members who have decided that they hate 9th before it's even officially released already are.
I have definitely seen Scotsman saying positive things about 9th, it's not all whining, all the time. He, like others, has identified 9th as being the MSU/anti-horde edition, and that's not really that controversial of a thing to say.
The frustration that you're seeing today is a result of these new points/FAQs that seem wildly out of whack with the actual state of the game. Unless in your 9th practicing, you used the new points (which I'm sure you didn't unless you're a reviewer/playtester), your point is moot. The points craziness is really where the wheels are falling off here. I was pretty optimistic about 9th too until I woke up to this crazy state of things. I don't blame anybody getting angry about it today.
MSU? Anti-Horde? Neither of those things are true. As far as I can tell. Where is the thread for this?
Ah, I can see by your oblivious nature to this statement that you have not been visiting the 9th edition thread in news and rumours. You are a wise man.
What? You mean it's not a well reasoned, rational, civil discussion on dakka? First time for everything I guess.
Are you two REALLY claiming the rules are friendly for hordes?
Are you really going to argue that the new morale rules aren't wildly beneficial for hordes?
Horde players agree going to go from losing a third of thier army to morale to losing maybe 15-20%.
Meanwhile, Elite armies are going to lose way more to morale if they bring large squads, and even if they bring MSU they wont have the firepower needed to shoot horde armies off the board.
MSU's won't protect characters for long either. And I don't buy the argument of putting a vehicle or MC next to the character, as that will be targeted very quickly for deletion.
Also in some armies (space marines for example) you absolutely won't get the benefit of the character if they are only near 1 vehicle, there's hardly any point taking them if you aren't going to try and boost as much of your firepower as possible, which means next to your troops. And then if those are MSU's, kill 3 models in each unit and the character can be targeted.
The only way this will work is if you go vehicle heavy, but they can't do your secondaries, and LOS is limited in the new edition if you do terrain correctly.
MSU's aren't the way forward imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 20:30:34
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2020/07/13 20:30:34
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Are you really going to argue that the new morale rules aren't wildly beneficial for hordes?
Horde players agree going to go from losing a third of thier army to morale to losing maybe 15-20%.
It depends on the unit. Boyz with a warboss or another large unit nearby bypassed the moral issue anyway, while gretchins got a significant benefit from the new morale rule.... except they are now 5ppm and combined with a plethora of new rules that badly affect large squads (blasts, coherency, cover...) it means that they were way better before.
A 10 man grot unit is a good middle ground.
No one is shooting BCs at them or if they do... you're winning. A TFC gets no extra shots and kills half a unit. Previously that mean 10 grits dead. Now it means 1 dead and maybe some more.
2020/07/13 20:38:56
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
No one is shooting BCs at them or if they do... you're winning. A TFC gets no extra shots and kills half a unit. Previously that mean 10 grits dead. Now it means 1 dead and maybe some more.
For 50 points you could take a deffkopta though, which is more durable, faster, fly and is better in CC and shooting. At 80 you could have 10 boyz. I suspect this is the age of extinction for the little fellas
2020/07/13 20:44:54
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Not a great time to buy into Imperial Fists. Guess who just picked up six Centurion Devastators.
On the other hand, I did get most of my new models through Dark Imperium/Know No Fear, and Death Guard is looking pretty fun. I had been building them up a bit to make two even armies. I’ve only picked up extra Plague Marines, Blightlords, and Blight Haulers for that. It’s looking like those were good purchases. I think I’m building DG as my primary force now.
2020/07/13 20:46:44
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
Yeah, the problem isn't with infantry units, its with everything else in relation to them.
Gee, should I take the minimum 30 cultists for a battalion or should I have a disco lord?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/07/13 20:49:49
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
MSU's won't protect characters for long either. And I don't buy the argument of putting a vehicle or MC next to the character, as that will be targeted very quickly for deletion.
Also in some armies (space marines for example) you absolutely won't get the benefit of the character if they are only near 1 vehicle, there's hardly any point taking them if you aren't going to try and boost as much of your firepower as possible, which means next to your troops. And then if those are MSU's, kill 3 models in each unit and the character can be targeted.
The only way this will work is if you go vehicle heavy, but they can't do your secondaries, and LOS is limited in the new edition if you do terrain correctly.
MSU's aren't the way forward imo.
You say that like it's trivial to remove 3 IH agressors or the new melta boys as they can go to 5 man units and still be blast immune, but you need to kill 3 to stop them screening charictors.
Funnily enough it looks like marines with bikes, gravis etc in 3-5 man units will do just fine in 9th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 20:54:54
2020/07/13 20:52:11
Subject: The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public!
I’ve only picked up extra Plague Marines, Blightlords, and Blight Haulers for that. It’s looking like those were good purchases. I think I’m building DG as my primary force now.
DG is my primary. Based on the 9th ed games I played this weekend (and all the "official" ones I've seen online form playtesters), GET RHINOS. They will be essential to your Plague Marines. Essential.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
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