The Damn Has Broken... Points Changes Are Public! New "FACTS" Are Also Live!

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**Kanluwen**

The Newman wrote:
Crimson wrote:
[snip]
Another that really bugs me personally is rounding the equipment cost to nearest five points. This destroys the granularity that existed in the 8th. Now some options are just flat out better for their points. Whilst balancing under the previous paradigm wasn't perfect, at least it tried to price the weapons for what they were worth. This is simply a step backwards.

This would bother me more if a lot of the point values hadn't been complete nonsense to begin with.

Point values are and will always continue to be nonsense.

Thank heavens for Power Level instead.

**ERJAK**

One of the problem 40k really has trouble with is a problem that plagues sigmar too:

Some of the units are just too gakky to balance.

If a units output is below a certain threshhold, then by the time you lower the points cost to where he output is fair for what you're paying, the body itself becomes worth the cost and the output becomes secondary. If the body is too gakky then you have to lower the points to a degree that now it all becomes about the fact that it's a wound on the table.

Look at guardsman. If all they have is a lasgun and some mediocre BS4+ Heavy weapons then you have to drop their points until the body is really what you're paying for for them to be useful.

**Martel732**

Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Tell it to the Drukhari players. You're spoiled and high on cheap, undercosted units. You're the one who has always been in denial about the effectiveness of guardsmen at their 8th ed price point. Redesigns aren't coming. Points values are. And they got it wrong. Again.

And you're the one who continually argued that it was the Guardsmen that were the problem, not the Command Point spammage or easy access to allies.

Looks like you're wrong on that front too, given that they fixed that before Guard points. Funny how wrong you can be in one day, huh Martel?

I don't think I'm wrong at all. Those other issues were problems, too. But 4ppm models with 5+ armor? Please. You're completely delusional. Look what they had to do to marines to make them able to effectively remove guardsmen.

And again, look at Drukhari changes and get back to me.

**H.B.M.C.**

Vaktathi wrote:
Just taking a quick look Guard point changes, I'm somewhat shocked at how much they increased pricing on the Exterminator Autocannon, Heavy Bolters & Twin Heavy Bolters, Missile Launcher, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Stubber, etc all went wayyyyyyyy up, most of which were not very good. Those took the biggest hits of just about anything in the army, and I'm not sure...why?

Meanwhile the Battlecannon got even...cheaper?

I'm hoping this means that some changes went into the Exterminator Battlecannon and Missile Launcher and the like to make them more attractive, but I'm more guessing this is GW being bad at things again.

Looking for logic in 40k points is like looking for robust structure in a Salvador Dali painting.

**tneva82**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You've been almost bluntly told by GW that you shouldn't use skew lists and the game is designed for more balanced lists across the board for years, decades even.

Don't get salty now they have actually pushed to ensure that.

If grots were designed to be a full army, they'd have their own codex.

Time to suck it up and stop whinging and start playing the game in the way its intended, the time of unfluffy spam and skew is over.

You want ultra competitive specificity? Go play sports guys, this isn't that.

Lol. If you think 5 pts grot is fine or grots were issue then you are a" newbie b) bad player.

We aren't even talking about skew list. 60 junk cannon fodder isn't skew. Whole point of junk models is there's lot to compensate for being bad. Now that non skew is hosed.

9th ed rules already nerfed grots so had they stayed same cost stljl worse than before.

You know the real reason? Gw has sold enough grots so wants to force players to buy new models

**Kanluwen**

Martel732 wrote:

I don't think I'm wrong at all. Those other issues were problems, too. But 4ppm models with 5+ armor? Please. You're completely delusional. Look what they had to do to marines to make them able to effectively remove guardsmen.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because all of the changes were "to make them able to effectively remove guardsmen".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Lol. If you think 5 pts grot is fine or grots were issue then you are a" newbie b) bad player.

We aren't even talking about skew list. 60 junk cannon fodder isn't skew. Whole point of junk models is there's lot to compensate for being bad. Now that non skew is hosed.

9th ed rules already nerfed grots so had they stayed same cost stljl worse than before.

You know the real reason? Gw has sold enough grots so wants to force players to buy new models

Sorry, but yes "60 junk cannon fodder" is skew.

That's the whole frigging reason Conscripts were knocked down to 30 models tops from their ability to be taken in 50s.

**H.B.M.C.**

I bet everyone's sure happy at all the granularity we have now.

**Martel732**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I bet everyone's sure happy at all the granularity we have now.

I figured GW would get it wrong somehow, but I would have never guessed it would be this lazy.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Tell it to the Drukhari players. You're spoiled and high on cheap, undercosted units. You're the one who has always been in denial about the effectiveness of guardsmen at their 8th ed price point. Redesigns aren't coming. Points values are. And they got it wrong. Again.

And you're the one who continually argued that it was the Guardsmen that were the problem, not the Command Point spammage or easy access to allies.

Looks like you're wrong on that front too, given that they fixed that before Guard points. Funny how wrong you can be in one day, huh Martel?

And you're trusting GW's fixes to help prove your point? When they made Grots cost the same? Yeah no.

**Martel732**

Grots costing the same as guardsmen is prima facie absurd. The burden lies with the guard players who support this to prove that these units are equivalent across many games.

**Kanluwen**

Prove they're not.

You are the one who has continually argued that Guardsmen aren't taken for their offensive abilities but rather their ability to simply be a body on the board.

By your logic, they priced them the same as the Grots--another unit taken "to simply be a body on the board".

Toodles.

**Quasistellar**

OOF--the Astraeus got absolutely dunked on. I'm almost thinking it's a mistake it went up so much. Maybe the Twin Macro Accelerator Cannon is supposed to be free? (there's a similar inconsistency with the Castellan/Chaos Equivalent Knight)

And heavy bolters being so expensive now--anyone have insight as to why HBs went up so much?

**yukishiro1**

It must feel funny to be one of the people who were like "we need to increase points to increase granularity" seeing that they increased points AND decreased granularity AT THE SAME TIME.

I don't think even those of us who have a more skeptical view of GW's competence would have expected that.

These values are just a total mess. You look at something like the CWE section and you just have to shake your head. Most of their best units (except spinners, but even those didn't get as much of a nerf as they probably needed) got LOWER % increases than their worst units. Not even the rosy-tinted GW fanboi can make what they did to CWE points make any sort of sense.

**Kanluwen**

Vehicles can fire them while engaged in close combat now.

**Martel732**

Quasistellar wrote:
OOF--the Astraeus got absolutely dunked on. I'm almost thinking it's a mistake it went up so much. Maybe the Twin Macro Accelerator Cannon is supposed to be free? (there's a similar inconsistency with the Castellan/Chaos Equivalent Knight)

And heavy bolters being so expensive now--anyone have insight as to why HBs went up so much?

Well, -1AP is the most valuable point of AP.

**Archebius**

Overall, then - not as good as it could have been, not as bad as it might have been. And so the great cycle continues.

I think Tyranids will get some decent mileage out of the new rules, so we'll have to see how they balance out. DE look like they got screwed.

But hey, at least Grey Knights are finally in a good place, after struggling through an entire edition.

**endlesswaltz123**

Grots have some very distinct advantages over guardsmen.

Firstly, the obvious being that they can turn into Tau drones. Protecting your real hard hitting units. 3pts per model and 1CP to be able to do this for just 1 turn was very very very useful to the point of broken, especially with how hard Orks can hit in the shooting phase.

Second, and with the way objectives work firstly, and how terrain works, they can be used in quite a niche way under the new rules, where on dense terrain boards, they can capture/raise banners etc without getting hit at all due to their height... Lack of LOS.

I'd say that balances out enough for them to be justified at 5pts.

In regards to DE Kabalites, 9pts may seem steep, but I wonder if this is also a reaction to the new direct transport rules, they are discouraging MSU spam of kabalites so DE don't use them to spam DT's. Just a suggestion, not saying this is why. You may want to look into the point costs of units and then all the options to see if synergy was too powerful with those to determine the point cost reasoning.

**Aaranis**

Check the FAQs section of the WHC, they released it for all factions it seems ! Starting to read AdMech's one now.

**Martel732**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Grots have some very distinct advantages over guardsmen.

Firstly, the obvious being that they can turn into Tau drones. Protecting your real hard hitting units. 3pts per model and 1CP to be able to do this for just 1 turn was very very very useful to the point of broken, especially with how hard Orks can hit in the shooting phase.

Second, and with the way objectives work firstly, and how terrain works, they can be used in quite a niche way under the new rules, where on dense terrain boards, they can capture/raise banners etc without getting hit at all due to their height... Lack of LOS.

I'd say that balances out enough for them to be justified at 5pts.

In regards to DE Kabalites, 9pts may seem steep, but I wonder if this is also a reaction to the new direct transport rules, they are discouraging MSU spam of kabalites so DE don't use them to spam DT's. Just a suggestion, not saying this is why. You may want to look into the point costs of units and then all the options to see if synergy was too powerful with those to determine the point cost reasoning.

You are assuming any kind of thought or logic here, when probably the GW intern just made some gak up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It must feel funny to be one of the people who were like "we need to increase points to increase granularity" seeing that they increased points AND decreased granularity AT THE SAME TIME.

I don't think even those of us who have a more skeptical view of GW's competence would have expected that.

These values are just a total mess. You look at something like the CWE section and you just have to shake your head. Most of their best units (except spinners, but even those didn't get as much of a nerf as they probably needed) got LOWER % increases than their worst units. Not even the rosy-tinted GW fanboi can make what they did to CWE points make any sort of sense.

Watch them.

**Grimgold**

Aaranis wrote:
Check the FAQs section of the WHC, they released it for all factions it seems ! Starting to read AdMech's one now.

Nice, just finished necrons it was super short, but contained a nice buff for emergency invasion beams. On to custodes...

*edit* Minor buff to custodes, moment shackle is now next stratagem is free rather than get back a d3 CP.

Marines is a nothing burger, just the changes to reflect the new look out sir.

**the_scotsman**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You've been almost bluntly told by GW that you shouldn't use skew lists and the game is designed for more balanced lists across the board for years, decades even.

Don't get salty now they have actually pushed to ensure that.

If grots were designed to be a full army, they'd have their own codex.

Time to suck it up and stop whinging and start playing the game in the way its intended, the time of unfluffy spam and skew is over.

You want ultra competitive specificity? Go play sports guys, this isn't that.

LOL.

TIL that my list with 360 points of light infantry, 600 points of melee/shooting vehicles, 600 points of shooting vehicles, and 440 points of a mixture of shooting, support and melee HQs was "A cRaZy SkEw LiSt!!!!"

**MinscS2**

Martel732 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
OOF--the Astraeus got absolutely dunked on. I'm almost thinking it's a mistake it went up so much. Maybe the Twin Macro Accelerator Cannon is supposed to be free? (there's a similar inconsistency with the Castellan/Chaos Equivalent Knight)

And heavy bolters being so expensive now--anyone have insight as to why HBs went up so much?

Well, -1AP is the most valuable point of AP.

Except vs. Salamanders, Steel Legion, etc.

My issue (at least from a Marine PoV) is that 15 pts Heavy Bolters (on vehicles) makes little sense when an Assault Cannon is 20 pts.

GW sticking to weapons/wargear costing 0/5/10/15/20(etc) pts for the most part is hopefully just some sort of transition period-thing due to 9th, and once we start getting new codexes, wargear and weapons will revert to cost for instance 2, 6, 8, 12(etc) pts.

**Tiberias**

Might be slightly off topic, but it seems to me that whenever GW screws something up (like indomitus or these new point values) the people in the 40k community are even more on each others throats arguing than actually being mad at GW. Or is it just this site?

**Martel732**

No one likes bad news or to hear that their army needs nerfed.

The shitshow that is marines shows that the "make marines cheaper" faction had a better idea than what gw ultimately did.

**Grimtuff**

the_scotsman wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Well as others have said there is no point getting to up in arms until we play it out and see. Its just too many changes all at once to properly digest.

This. We have the points now - many of which do appear completely rediculous, haphazard and wrong, but what we are missing is any changes in the units and strats themselves. Right now, it looks like GW is trying to devalue Cultists so that CSM players run more marines, but, at the current stat line and abilities, CSM are now WAY over-priced. So I'm hoping maybe we get a day 1 FAQ that says adjust your CSM stat line like "this" and here are your new kick-a@@ strats.

just yesterday, using old point values, I played my grot stuff against a daemon engines army and got thoroughly destroyed.

The new rules penalized me an enormous amount. my opponent was able to hand me -1 to hit on pretty much everything on the board turn 1, thanks to a piece of Dense Cover terrain, warptimed in a suicide piece to trigger a chain explosion off one of my deff dreads, which I could not CP reroll. Dealt ~30MW to my army for spending a single CP. Then was able to basically effortlessly deny me every point I tried to score by shooting whatever squads I put onto objectives with min CSM squads sitting in cover with reaper chaincannons. the game ended 4pts to I think 11 or 12 turn 5.

The one thing I'll give 9th is that there were models on the board at the end of turn 5, an appreciable amount, the new cover and removal of overwatch definitely made the game somewhat less deadly.

But you'll just see no light infantry until the point nerfs are reverted. There's zero reason at all to field any.lists are going to be nothing but elites and tanks with min troops for a single battalion or brigade until the next CA unless they FAQ it.

I honestly don't know if you're joking there. All of that seems so plausible yet exaggerated to the point of absurdity, but because it's modern 40k I'm leaning towards the former and that level of stupid is par for the course...

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:
Quick and dirty "how to make yourself a competitive 9th list"

step 1: Take your competitive 8th list.

Step 2: Drop anything that was for killing infantry until you're down to 2k.

That's it! you're done!

Oh so it isn't the anti-horde edition now?

**Spartan089**

I'm blown away by some of these point costs, especially in guard, 28 point increase to the basic Leman Russ, 15 points for a single heavy bolter? 40 points for plasma sponsons?! 235 points for a fully kitted out Tank Comander (BC, plasma sponsons, hull Lascannon) seems way too expensive.

**ccs**

Martel732 wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You've been almost bluntly told by GW that you shouldn't use skew lists and the game is designed for more balanced lists across the board for years, decades even.

Don't get salty now they have actually pushed to ensure that.

If grots were designed to be a full army, they'd have their own codex.

Time to suck it up and stop whinging and start playing the game in the way its intended, the time of unfluffy spam and skew is over.

You want ultra competitive specificity? Go play sports guys, this isn't that.

Yes, and their own systems and points values DON'T EVER ENCOURAGE THIS. Again, GW doesn't understand how their own game is played.

No, but they do understand how their game is SOLD.

**H.B.M.C.**

Kanluwen wrote:
Vehicles can fire them while engaged in close combat now.

But it's the classic GW approach to "balance".

"Item X isn't performing at its points cost."
"So let's make it better?"
"Yeah!"
"Oh no! It's better! Put it's points up!"

I know you think points are stupid because you've somehow missed the fact that they're a core part of the game almost since its inception, but this is how GW does things. They find something that isn't working, make it work, then panic that something is now too powerful, and put its points up. And thus the process begins anew!

**Martel732**

They've got a cult built, so they don't likely even understand that.