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Guyver 3 wrote:
The points increases in 9th look like they were done in 20 mins, no effort has been put into balancing armies in any way,

So much for the most playtested edition! I’m guessing the play testers used 8th edition points and weren’t asked to test anything beyond the core rules,

considering the quality Of the play testers this is a real shame and a Huge missed opportunity on gw’s part.

20 mins ? I have to disagree all that dice / dart chucking was clearly a long post-Bugmans Friday afternoon of serious game development

This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

Nibbler wrote:
I just took a quick look on the leaked points...
holy guacamole!

I started Tau in february - got a stormsurge, just because I like the looks.
Reaching 9th Ed, LoWs can't be reasonable added to my existing army and it took a 120 points increase.
It has to get some overwhelmingly good rules, or it is just dead...

Stormsurge was questionable even before 9th. Now it's just unplayable until the 9th edition codex drops in which case it could become viable again if GW actually support it.
I guess the only thing it has going for it is the Cluster rocket system being able to absolutely decimate larger units since it counts as a blast weapon. landing 24 hits on units with 11+ models is just downright dirty. Still doesn't justify such a price hike IMHO though.

Edit: Actually, Double checking. I could be wrong, there's no points cost listed for the cluster rocket system, destroyer missiles or either main weapon for the stormsurge, so with the added sub-weapons, we're only looking at a 277pt stormsurge with SMS and Flamers increasing to
320pts which is slightly more palatable. Not exactly go-out-and-buy-3 palatable, but enough that people might start trying them out.

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

but who's the Una 2 and who's the Skorne ?

I honestly don´t fething buy it about playtester. I´m 100% sure they told the fethers at GW that those points were slowed, as much they told them that IH and new SM were broken.

They just decide to ignore it. I get it you want to push one product in your line, but how long will last the power amour frenzy? I mean doesn´t it get boring after a while?

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

I hear you. Just gag it, go the extra mile. Remove the cost of the eradicators all together. 0 points for 3. What? Melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. While at it, change the aggressors to shoot 50 shots per arm. It's only str 4, not broken by any means.

Yeah. Really no point in bothering about balancing a strategy game that has winning objectives.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

but who's the Una 2 and who's the Skorne ?

Spoiler:

Primaras and everyone else of course

"They are my Space Marines. And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I thought 9th was gonna be different and better because it was written with tournament players and playtesters in mind?

It's the most polished edition ever. Apparently.

Tourney players have very specific view of the game.
Its questionable if this helps in a large sense.

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

considering 2 factions more have been first slowly ignored all through 8th and then squatted, ans such a unit shows up for the faction with blatant selfperpetuating release favour and people get pissed?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

I hear you. Just gag it, go the extra mile. Remove the cost of the eradicators all together. 0 points for 3. What? Melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. While at it, change the aggressors to shoot 50 shots per arm. It's only str 4, not broken by any means.

Yeah. Really no point in bothering about balancing a strategy game that has winning objectives.

Go for it, please continue to wave your arms and make irrational childish statements like it actually helps or adds to the fact the unit for 3 is maybe 20-30 points too cheap. Literally proving my point about the overreactions, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

considering 2 factions more have been first slowly ignored all through 8th and then squatted, ans such a unit shows up for the faction with blatant selfperpetuating release favour and people get pissed?

I get you're upset that the OOP FW armies are gone, but that literally has nothing to do with the relative points values of eradicators?

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

So. Guess you play marines. Let's see would you support 28 intercessors. And hey let's have 5 point smasha gun. d3 shots ain't winning games on their own?

tneva82 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

So. Guess you play marines. Let's see would you support 28 intercessors. And hey let's have 5 point smasha gun. d3 shots ain't winning games on their own?

Chaos marines and sisters, no horse in this race I'm afraid. Intercessors maybe do need to go up another point or two and smasha guns aren't winning games on their own. Yet again, give a serious response rather than over dramatic arm waving please.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

considering 2 factions more have been first slowly ignored all through 8th and then squatted, ans such a unit shows up for the faction with blatant selfperpetuating release favour and people get pissed?

I get you're upset that the OOP FW armies are gone, but that literally has nothing to do with the relative points values of eradicators?

But it does, it's interlinked. You have enough time to make new unit entries for SMs that frankly do not need any right now but not enough time to make unit entries for the above, because...?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

considering 2 factions more have been first slowly ignored all through 8th and then squatted, ans such a unit shows up for the faction with blatant selfperpetuating release favour and people get pissed?

I get you're upset that the OOP FW armies are gone, but that literally has nothing to do with the relative points values of eradicators?

But it does, it's interlinked. You have enough time to make new unit entries for SMs that frankly do not need any right now but not enough time to make unit entries for the above, because...?

Because releasing an entire R&H army takes more resources than they've put into this wave of primaris releases? But even then, it still has nothing to do with the balance of those units in regards to 9th.

Lets break this down further: "I think that eradicators are too cheap because renegade militia got removed" is a nonsensical statement.

 Grimtuff wrote:



But it does, it's interlinked. You have enough time to make new unit entries for SMs that frankly do not need any right now but not enough time to make unit entries for the above, because...?

Because marines are GW main source of income, played by most people, which makes them more important then any faction or even whole games GW makes.

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

They may not win the game, but they can ruin it.

If a model is too cheap by a wide enough margin, like the current case, you will see that model on most tables, especially if it is a model available to 9 different factions, which also happen to be the most played factions.

If that model is a specialist and is extremely good at what it does, like the current case, you have pushed out of the game his favorite targets.

The simple presence of eradicators, already tells us that any big target without an invul save is toast. If you happened to like that sort of models, like for example an IG tank company or a nidzilla, those 2 digits on that publication can literally ruin the game for you.

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

The issue is as has always been the case with primaris, they keep getting so many apparently poorly pointed units that each release ways seems to pile on more and more bloating and there always seems to be some unit that's so out of touch with what it should cost your really left questioning if the people creating the points play the game.

Also when it's marines, more marines, even more marines, it's a marine thing honest. Relesse cycle with the inevitably broken OP unit that takes months to get fixed it gets very difficult to turn the other cheek when your getting rofl stomped by marine's week in and out for a year.

Add in that a number of armies have just seen massive points increases across their most competitive units while marines get more OP stuff extreme saltyness is to be expected and frankly justified.

Spoletta wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

They may not win the game, but they can ruin it.

If a model is too cheap by a wide enough margin, like the current case, you will see that model on most tables, especially if it is a model available to 9 different factions, which also happen to be the most played factions.

If that model is a specialist and is extremely good at what it does, like the current case, you have pushed out of the game his favorite targets.

The simple presence of eradicators, already tells us that any big target without an invul save is toast. If you happened to like that sort of models, like for example an IG tank company or a nidzilla, those 2 digits on that publication can literally ruin the game for you.

Again, a unit of eradicators does 7 damage outside of 12 inches to a leman russ, how is that ruining the game? Fex will fare worse mostly but still it's still capably to survive 1 volley with the -1 to hit carapace.

GW never wanted a perfectly balanced game, new points aim to have a game which is balanced enough to keep players around but there's also the goal to sell specific kits over other ones to take into account.

Take orks: gretchins sold a lot in 8th since players needed loads of them, SAG and flash gitz also sold and had their glory days, and all those units were crap before 8th so GW needed players to buy those models... now GW is pushing buggies, which apparently didn't sold enough when they were released. Not a surprise, even primaris got their buffs long after they were released.

Nauts, buggies, meganobz, mek gunz, flyers... are all very expensive (and quite recent) kits and not many players have loads of them: it comes natural that those units have viable rules. Maybe even dreads: they're definitely more common to have in older collections but they can have multiple loadouts and not many players magnetize stuff, so I guess a simple change in the most performing combinations of weapons is enough to keep the kit appealing for buyers. Works on flyers and mek gunz kits too, just change one variant to be to top performers over the other options included in the kit and they keep selling a lot.

Units like lootas, boyz, bikes, etc that were very common prior 8th edition aren't gonna be pushed in terms of rules because GW know that lots of player already have enough of them. After X years of bad rules GW will ultimately revamp them as all the players that started the hobby in those X years will unlikely have them. Same for those units which actually don't rely on kits like tankbustas, kommandos or koptas: it's unlikely that GW decides to push them as the consequence is no $ for the company. Luckily GW guys forgot about tankbustas not having a kit and they kept their 8th points value (which by the way was already a bit high).

Ice_can wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

The issue is as has always been the case with primaris, they keep getting so many apparently poorly pointed units that each release ways seems to pile on more and more bloating and there always seems to be some unit that's so out of touch with what it should cost your really left questioning if the people creating the points play the game.

Also when it's marines, more marines, even more marines, it's a marine thing honest. Relesse cycle with the inevitably broken OP unit that takes months to get fixed it gets very difficult to turn the other cheek when your getting rofl stomped by marine's week in and out for a year.

Add in that a number of armies have just seen massive points increases across their most competitive units while marines get more OP stuff extreme saltyness is to be expected and frankly justified.

Marines sucked for most of 8th, people seem to be quick to forget that. But every faction has a unit that's got questionable points in one direction or another, plenty of examples in here. Marines have the largest range so have the largest room for some unusual discrepancies, it's to be expected if a faction has something wrong, it's them.

Dudeface wrote:

Again, a unit of eradicators does 7 damage outside of 12 inches to a leman russ, how is that ruining the game? Fex will fare worse mostly but still it's still capably to survive 1 volley with the -1 to hit carapace.

Try again the avarage with CM & LT is 11Wound from a 3 man unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Marines sucked for most of 8th, people seem to be quick to forget that. But every faction has a unit that's got questionable points in one direction or another, plenty of examples in here. Marines have the largest range so have the largest room for some unusual discrepancies, it's to be expected if a faction has something wrong, it's them.

Then we have had a year of nothing but Iron hands, imperial fists, etc etc they have all been nerfed consistently and still are hitting a 60% win tmratio against non marines.

It's not one or two units it's be systemic miscalculation by the design team or blatent unwillingness to nerf the offenders appropriately.

 Emicrania wrote:
I honestly don´t fething buy it about playtester. I´m 100% sure they told the fethers at GW that those points were slowed, as much they told them that IH and new SM were broken.

They just decide to ignore it. I get it you want to push one product in your line, but how long will last the power amour frenzy? I mean doesn´t it get boring after a while?

Given how many people are reacting with "Woohoo, everything is great!" i'm guessing the marine boredom hasn't set in yet in some places. Where I'm at, pre-pandemic there was already a growing contingent of people asking "hey, I've done marines vs marines three games in a row, anyone want to play something else?"

Ice_can wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Again, a unit of eradicators does 7 damage outside of 12 inches to a leman russ, how is that ruining the game? Fex will fare worse mostly but still it's still capably to survive 1 volley with the -1 to hit carapace.

Try again the avarage with CM & LT is 11Wound from a 3 man unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Marines sucked for most of 8th, people seem to be quick to forget that. But every faction has a unit that's got questionable points in one direction or another, plenty of examples in here. Marines have the largest range so have the largest room for some unusual discrepancies, it's to be expected if a faction has something wrong, it's them.

Then we have had a year of nothing but Iron hands, imperial fists, etc etc they have all been nerfed consistently and still are hitting a 60% win tmratio against non marines.

It's not one or two units it's be systemic miscalculation by the design team or blatent unwillingness to nerf the offenders appropriately.

I like this game, let's buff the carnifex with catalyst and get it back down to 7 wounds done shall we? It's also cheaper than the resources you're putting into firing at it now.

Oh look the new unit comes a bit short of a 100% efficency on that target when in non optimal condition and unbuffed! Then it must be fine!

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

considering 2 factions more have been first slowly ignored all through 8th and then squatted, ans such a unit shows up for the faction with blatant selfperpetuating release favour and people get pissed?

I get you're upset that the OOP FW armies are gone, but that literally has nothing to do with the relative points values of eradicators?

But it does, it's interlinked. You have enough time to make new unit entries for SMs that frankly do not need any right now but not enough time to make unit entries for the above, because...?

Because releasing an entire R&H army takes more resources than they've put into this wave of primaris releases? But even then, it still has nothing to do with the balance of those units in regards to 9th.

Lets break this down further: "I think that eradicators are too cheap because renegade militia got removed" is a nonsensical statement.

Such nonsense, my point was that it is valid complaint to point at this rather too good priced unit that suddendly appearead , shanking all internal balance with a sorry shiv meanwhile it is Part of even more new Units for said faction but the other two get nothing?

Also the ressources claim is bollocks all you'd need to do is 3 boxes like broodbrothers and 4 charachters and a command squad and that is the luxury treatment that also can stand in as a propper cultist release for csm/TS/DG.
Edit: and of course a propper rulebook, which they literally could one to one copy from the past and adapt easily enough.

Spoletta wrote:
Oh look the new unit comes a bit short of a 100% efficency on that target when in non optimal condition and unbuffed! Then it must be fine!

Or that maybe just gnashing teeth aimlessly on a forum without any real world experience means nothing.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Oh look the new unit comes a bit short of a 100% efficency on that target when in non optimal condition and unbuffed! Then it must be fine!

Or that maybe just gnashing teeth aimlessly on a forum without any real world experience means nothing.

You are the one that raised the point of them not being as good as they look like.

Running away now that you were proven wrong?

By the way, I was wrong too, the eradicators have MORE than 100% efficiency on fexes when out of melta range and unbfuffed! They actually come out to 121 points of fexes down!

Dudeface wrote:
Again, a unit of eradicators does 7 damage outside of 12 inches to a leman russ, how is that ruining the game? Fex will fare worse mostly but still it's still capably to survive 1 volley with the -1 to hit carapace.

The argument isn't that the unit is single handedly going to the destroy the game. The point is that it's a unit which is undercosted for what it does, in an army full of undercosted units. Doing 21 damage to a tank at 24" range, or ~26.8 at 12" range for 360 points means that the rest of the army really doesn't need to be that bothered by large models as they remove one per turn. It's not like 7 wounds is shabby anyway, that's as much as a lev dread with 2 storm cannon arrays did on average to tanks; plus, at T5 W3 they're quite hard to remove. Compound this with the troop choice for that army having guns which are very effective against infantry, as well as everything in the army being decent in combat and it simply feels very unfair. Just because a unit doesn't single handedly break the game doesn't mean it's fair, nor does it mean it's not an issue in the wider context of the game.

Spoletta wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Oh look the new unit comes a bit short of a 100% efficency on that target when in non optimal condition and unbuffed! Then it must be fine!

Or that maybe just gnashing teeth aimlessly on a forum without any real world experience means nothing.

You are the one that raised the point of them not being as good as they look like.

Running away now that you were proven wrong?

By the way, I was wrong too, the eradicators have MORE than 100% efficiency on fexes when out of melta range and unbfuffed! They actually come out to 121 points of fexes down!

No I said they were too good, I just said they don't render playing the game pointless:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
This thread takes me back to the release of Warmachine Mk3. "Three years of playtesting" they said and were rightfully raked over the coals by their customers when this was proven to not be exactly true.

But we all know this won't happen here. People will bitch and moan but still fork over their dosh hand and fist to GW...

People are also acting like GW took a dump in their cornflakes and personally killed their pets because a grot might be out by a point or two.

"OMG eradicators make the game unplayable?!?!??!?!" 6 melta shots aren't going to win you games on their own. They're good, they're too cheap, they're not an I-win button.

A unit against a fex with spore cysts (which I did specify) hits 3 times, wounds twice, does 7 wounds.