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2020/07/14 22:36:02
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.
Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.
S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.
Actually they can take plasma pistols and combi-plasmas (and plasma guns on some non-Sister models of the army) and can out-plasma SM with a bit of effort
How do Sisters out plasma marines? I find that unlikely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 07:13:05
ERJAK wrote: Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again
Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.
Sob's don"t generally have much unit buffing stratagems they use that benefit from bigger size. Br repentia is one but with changes to detachments and nerfbat repenttia took that is one unit that might very well drop in non-pure br lists
Guardsmen, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Boyz, Warriors etc. all come in minimum-size 10-model units, and some ot them really want to be big units and will just take their lumps from blast weapons.
.
Guardsmen only one of that that might see use still and not many d3 blast weapons that want to shoot at those.
Boyz dead, necron warriors were dead in 8th and got nerfed in 9th so even less around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 06:23:13
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/07/15 06:36:16
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.
Wait what? T3 is a HUGE difference alone which makes them non comparable, Marines dont get wounded on 3+ by the plethora of Str 4 weaponry out there, which forces more saves on the 3+ Sv bodies. That alone has me scratching my head at your comment. Sisters can spam basic bolters better, marines can field MUCH better bolters and are tankier per model. Also Intercessors exist to make virtually every other troops choice weep. And then doctrines on top. And super doctrine. And Lt reroll auras and so on.
No I do not think sisters are functionally identical to marines in any way. They just share power armour and a some weaponry, but they play differently.
And now thanks to eradicators do Melta more efficiently than sisters.
Edited due to pre coffee brain, forgot some words.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 07:20:41
2020/07/15 14:45:22
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.
Wait what? T3 is a HUGE difference alone which makes them non comparable, Marines dont get wounded on 3+ by the plethora of Str 4 weaponry out there, which forces more saves on the 3+ Sv bodies. That alone has me scratching my head at your comment. Sisters can spam basic bolters better, marines can field MUCH better bolters and are tankier per model. Also Intercessors exist to make virtually every other troops choice weep. And then doctrines on top. And super doctrine. And Lt reroll auras and so on.
No I do not think sisters are functionally identical to marines in any way. They just share power armour and a some weaponry, but they play differently.
And now thanks to eradicators do Melta more efficiently than sisters.
Edited due to pre coffee brain, forgot some words.
At the very least, pre-primaris Space Marines and Sisters effectively were the same IMO, and IME.
I don't think the T3 S3 is a big deal. The squad formulation and general capabilities of the units being virtually identical at the end of the day makes a bigger difference, since it made them play the same way. Intercessors and Bolter Discipline have changed that somewhat to make marines more stand-and-shoot and sisters more aggressive melee/short ranged, but in days past they were largely the same.
As a side note, Sisters traits seem explicitly designed to make marines sad, and with their assault emphasis I think sisters are in a fairly good place going forwards just from the "meta is full of marines, so being counter-marine is pretty good." Equally fast, similarly equipped, resistant to AP-2 and an SV3+ native unit, and having a number of good anti-marine ranged and melee units I think will make them good for pushing back. Baffled by the Exorcist being Blast though; it was always a multiple shot non-blast weapon before.
This isn't really the point of the thread though, since we're taking about high-capability marine lists.
I think the ability to effectively treat everywhere 9" from the enemy deployment as their deployment for some units, as well as arrive units on the first turn, will prove a decisive advantage for Marines this edition. The shortened game, scoring at the beginning, and progressive scoring will all heavily emphasize getting up to the enemy early.
I'm not sold on the Eradicators, I don't actually think they're going to be the ohmygod cheese. I think the ability to outright shut down the enemy's early game scoring with Infiltrators, Incursors, and anything Raven Guard will be more decisive and harder to deal with.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 14:59:27
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2020/07/15 16:26:31
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
One thing of note, while most other units went up I think the quad Lascannon Predator actually went down by five points. It's now much more competitively priced compared to other units like Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks.
I think folks are dramatically overestimating the effects of blast and underestimating the defensive impact of a mandated 16-18 terrain pieces per 2000 point game.
If a table had 8 pieces before, that was considered a lot. Now it's 1 per sqft. Hordes will be just fine, squads of ten will actually hold objectives for more than 1 turn, playing more than minimum will also let you run the patrol detachment and not have to run a second 100+ point HQ for Brigade.
2020/07/15 17:55:48
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/07/15 19:00:17
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.
Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.
S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.
For one iteration of a recent publication Sisters were set to 10 minimum I believe. So you're memory isn't off but for a different edition.
Now which one I don't know.
Was that the list in WD, possibly?
If it was more recent than third edition, I would not have known. I have the 2nd Ed codex and the 3rd ed Wtichhunters book, and the last time I spent any time with the army was in 4th ed. It's not often that units change composition size though, so I assumed they were still 10-20. I see them played but I'm not paying much attention to the number of models in units.
SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.
Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.
S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.
For one iteration of a recent publication Sisters were set to 10 minimum I believe. So you're memory isn't off but for a different edition.
Now which one I don't know.
Was that the list in WD, possibly?
MAYBE. I remember vague complaints that Immolators couldn't even hold them in 6th so that might be accurate. Then they got MSU again in 7th? I really don't know. There was a lot of rules bloat.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/07/15 22:23:15
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.
There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.
Genestealers come in units of 5 as well.
They may not see much use now, Rippers will likely take over as basic troops for most Tyranid detachments....
Huh, min 5 for stealers look at that.
I suspect you'll still see squads of 20 of them. They get their bonus attack at 10+, and they're still gonna be great units for assaulting stuff off objectives. Big squads will still be viable because of their movement capabilities. You don't want to spend your Swarmlords ability and Kraken Stratagem pushing a 5-stealer unit forward 20+ inches.
Maybe, but you're probably only taking one blob now, and honestly, a lot of the points changes for nids make me want to lead towards a gun line heavy army with either ravenors/gargolyes as fast moving infantry.
They'll still have a place, for sure, but I dont think we're going to see as many. I really wish they made warriors a little better. Just a smidge.
Yeah, what this guy said. You won’t be wasting your Swarmlord ability on 5 Stealers because you won’t be bringing a Swarmlord anymore. SwarmStealer bomb was already outdated in the meta, now it’s pretty much dead. Tyranids will be taking a different approach now for the most part.
2020/07/15 22:46:23
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
The marines special rules are ideal for briefly holding objectives - full rapid fire when out of position holding a point, extra power in the first turn of combat when you are looking to deny or hold a capture, and morale protection for clinging on to the last model. The multitude of rapid deployment options just adds to that.
Insectum7 wrote: For one iteration of a recent publication Sisters were set to 10 minimum I believe. So you're memory isn't off but for a different edition.
Now which one I don't know.
2nd: Initial release 10 sisters, Codex 5-7 (5 models and special/heavy weapons were added to the squad)
3rd: Rulebook 5-10, Chapter approved 5-10, Witch Hunters 10-20 (and good at 10)
5th: White Dwarf 10-20 (and not good at 10)
6th: Ebook Codex 5-20
7th: Imperial Agents 5-20
8th: Index 5-15, Codex 5-15
2020/07/15 23:47:47
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
I've only made one list so far so it is automatically my dirtiest list I doubt it's very good, just a nice nostalgic way to begin the edition.
Master
Lieutenant
3*10 tactical marines
10 deathwing
6 Ravenwing
5 Ravenwing black Knights
10 devastators with 4 lascannons
Quad lascannon predator.
2020/07/16 00:01:40
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Captain - Powerfist, CombiMelta
Lieutennant - Powerfist, Combimelta
Tactical Squad (10) - GravCannon, Plasmagun, Combi-Plasma
Tactical Squad (10) - GravCannon, Plasmagun, Combi-Plasma
Tactical Squad (10) - GravCannon, Plasmagun, Combi-Plasma
Devastators (10) - Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub
Devastators (10) - Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub
Devastators (10) - Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Sternguard (10) - SI Bolters, Power Axe
Rhino - Storm Bolters (2), HK Missile
Razorback - Twin Lascannon, HK Missile
Razorback - Twin Lascannon, HK Missile
Drop Pod - Storm Bolter
Drop Pod - Storm Bolter
1997
With a bit of shuffling I could replace the Pods and Rhino for two more of the same Razorbacks. Facing a more hoardy meta the Razors could switch to TLACs without changing points.
SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.
Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.
S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.
Actually they can take plasma pistols and combi-plasmas (and plasma guns on some non-Sister models of the army) and can out-plasma SM with a bit of effort
How do Sisters out plasma marines? I find that unlikely.
Marine army where every model has a plasma weapon. I couldn't fit the Command Squad in the FOC, but that's a 7th squad that can be armed entirely with plasma.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 07:13:36
Tbh filling out a brigade is sort of... showoffy - you could probably just settle on a battalion and take two 10 man squads of Intercessors. Or shave off the scouts+another unit and take 30. Blast might be an issue for 6+ man squads, but on the other hand you benefit more from things like Transhuman. Saving some points would also allow you to give the sergeants thunder hammers which are probably not auto-takes, but certainly nice to have against a wide range of targets.
There was a bit of debate - but I'd argue this is how eradicators will skew the meta. They can scare monsters/vehicles and have to be dealt with, while the rest of the list provides a high amount of accurate, mainly S4, some AP attacks. Valorous Heart Sisters might be an issue (meta dependent this is where having a spearhead of eliminators might be sensible to have a shot at the imagifiers, over say the Invictors - but I they've gone up quite a bit.) - but most troops will just disappear. Which should see you mop up on primaries (assuming the missions continue to be objective based) while denying them to your opponent.
Its not quite a horde list on bodies - but on wounds you are looking at 113+26 on the invictors+characters. With various Ironhands protections, that's going to be an awful lot to chew through.
Not sure the Invictors+Bikes are optimal - but I think the meta is going to be more about getting onto and denying objectives, and so a pure foot force probably won't be effective even if it has slightly better shooting. Would expect them to be dead by turn 3, but that will have allowed your main blob two turns to get into the middle of the table, depending on how the objectives are laid out.
2020/07/16 16:42:04
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
Tbh filling out a brigade is sort of... showoffy - you could probably just settle on a battalion and take two 10 man squads of Intercessors. Or shave off the scouts+another unit and take 30. Blast might be an issue for 6+ man squads, but on the other hand you benefit more from things like Transhuman. Saving some points would also allow you to give the sergeants thunder hammers which are probably not auto-takes, but certainly nice to have against a wide range of targets.
There was a bit of debate - but I'd argue this is how eradicators will skew the meta. They can scare monsters/vehicles and have to be dealt with, while the rest of the list provides a high amount of accurate, mainly S4, some AP attacks. Valorous Heart Sisters might be an issue (meta dependent this is where having a spearhead of eliminators might be sensible to have a shot at the imagifiers, over say the Invictors - but I they've gone up quite a bit.) - but most troops will just disappear. Which should see you mop up on primaries (assuming the missions continue to be objective based) while denying them to your opponent.
Its not quite a horde list on bodies - but on wounds you are looking at 113+26 on the invictors+characters. With various Ironhands protections, that's going to be an awful lot to chew through.
Not sure the Invictors+Bikes are optimal - but I think the meta is going to be more about getting onto and denying objectives, and so a pure foot force probably won't be effective even if it has slightly better shooting. Would expect them to be dead by turn 3, but that will have allowed your main blob two turns to get into the middle of the table, depending on how the objectives are laid out.
Doesn't seem like a lot between me and your characters - especially if you're spreading to cover objectives. There isn't much that could threaten vehicles at range - invictor AC and that's about it. I really think that it would hand me a list building win though I reserve the right to be wrong about that.
This is cut #1 for me. I start at 7 CP.
Daemon Prince 10 (4 +1 Daemonic, +1 Charge, +1 Relic, +3 Talons) S10 (+2 Daemonic, +1 Relic) attacks on the charge. Each unmodified 6 to hit causes 1MW. With that it means he should be able to wipe an entire Outrider squad in one round of combat. The psychic power targets a terrain piece (w/i 24") and one unit w/i 3" is half movement and -1 advance/charge on WC6. It gives me a bit more control over the battlefield.
Vindicators Cheap, durable, and useful on hordes. Also great for wounding T5 on 2s.
Heldrake Perfect tool to rush Eradicators and tie them up. A 30" move will guarantee you have no response.
War Dog & Moirax War Dog for some extra long range punch. Moirax bring 2D6 S6 AP3 D2 (D4 when you're 3+) at 24" with a 14" move. This gives me enough flexibility to respond to your movements. They'll one shot Outriders with no FNP and just about wipe out a squad of Eradicators / Aggressors with average FNP rolls.
Enligtened Secondary cappers
Tzaangors Deepstrike and keep them off the field until I need bodies
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 16:42:43
2020/07/16 17:49:38
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
ERJAK wrote: Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again
Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.
You're never going to use a stratagem on battle sisters unless it's the last one on an objective and you want to reroll armor. The only benefit to using large units is congalining aura buffs and coherency neuters that. Ten girl squads of battle sisters are DoA.
You might see bigger squads of repentia or arcos, but even jamming transports battle sisters are better off in 5s.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 19:39:14
2020/07/16 18:10:54
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
Ofc a tailored list is going to work well, if you know ahead of time what you're facing.
P.S. your Superheavy Detachment seems to be down as -2 CP rather than -3 CP.
Must try harder.
That's not tailored. It is the same list i'll be using against Deffskulls this weekend. -2 CP is me being a fat finger - thanks for catching that.
I'm *thinking* it has enough flex to hold up against most armies. I think I can take a knight down pretty early on. I have enough blast weapons for hordes and enough durability to hold objectives although I feel really light on infantry and obsec.
If the tournament missions are more pointed I may have to redo the whole thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 18:14:06
2020/07/16 18:57:43
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
ERJAK wrote: Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again
Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.
You're never going to use a stratagem on battle sisters unless it's the last one on an objective and you want to reroll armor. The only benefit to using large units is congalining aura buffs and coherency neuters that. Ten girl squads of battle sisters are DoA.
You might see bigger squads of repentia or arcos, but even jamming transports battle sisters are better off in 5s.
Also, not for nothing but neither of those lists are particularly impressive. The eradicators are the scariest thing in either.
:shrug: Like I said, I remain unconvinced.
The first list is a starting point based on what I tended to run in 8th. The second is a joke list to make a point. There's no Eradicators in either list. . .
Personally I don't like the list, because you've got very few bodies, and little obsec. If you can clear me off fast enough that may not be a problem - but I'm not sure you will.
2020/07/16 20:25:42
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
ERJAK wrote: Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again
Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.
You're never going to use a stratagem on battle sisters unless it's the last one on an objective and you want to reroll armor. The only benefit to using large units is congalining aura buffs and coherency neuters that. Ten girl squads of battle sisters are DoA.
You might see bigger squads of repentia or arcos, but even jamming transports battle sisters are better off in 5s.
Also, not for nothing but neither of those lists are particularly impressive. The eradicators are the scariest thing in either.
:shrug: Like I said, I remain unconvinced.
The first list is a starting point based on what I tended to run in 8th. The second is a joke list to make a point. There's no Eradicators in either list. . .
Yours wasn't the list I was talking about, and we can agree to disagree on squad sizes. Without playtesting it's impossible to know for sure.
Here's my attempt, mainly going off of models I already own.
Scouts and invictors let you easily grab turn 1 objectives, inceptors are crazy good now with the drops, the eradicators outflank with the Jump captain deepstriking, giving you the option to send the LT with them(probably not, they're wounding on 2s against anything T7 or less when they come in). 20 intercessors and 15 scouts should be enough wounds to leave you with something on the table for turn two when your eradicators and inceptors kill everything.
It's a little light on anti-infantry but you could potentially change out one of the plasma inceptor units for a bolter inceptor unit, or drop 2 squads of scouts for something like an anti-infantry impulsor that can deliver the 10 man squad into double rapidfire. I also don't really use thunderhammers because they're insanely expensive and I mostly consider character melee to be a neat bonus, not a pivotal part of my list.
(yes, intercessors are one of the units that should still be perfectly fine as 10s)
Big thing to consider is that the standard Salamander chapter tactic might be better than the +3 range considering you're doing pretty alright on that front already.
2020/07/16 20:56:30
Subject: We have points and FAQs - make me your dirtiest marine list
Daedalus81 wrote: That's not tailored. It is the same list i'll be using against Deffskulls this weekend. -2 CP is me being a fat finger - thanks for catching that.
I'm *thinking* it has enough flex to hold up against most armies. I think I can take a knight down pretty early on. I have enough blast weapons for hordes and enough durability to hold objectives although I feel really light on infantry and obsec.
If the tournament missions are more pointed I may have to redo the whole thing.
I have the 2nd Ed codex and the 3rd ed Wtichhunters book, and the last time I spent any time with the army was in 4th ed. It's not often that units change composition size though, so I assumed they were still 10-20. I see them played but I'm not paying much attention to the number of models in units.
Eldar- 4436 pts
