Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Ok a few bits of feedback on this, always nice to see a smash captain :-)

Firstly are you planing on making him Deathcompany? I think the bonuses from it can really help with making a killer smasher.

Relic wise I really like the Mask but think it is best used with the WL Trait to give an aura of Obsec, combined these mean your character automatically steals any objective they move onto. With just the mask your lone character is still unlikely to capture objectives without help to up the numbers in your favour and taking both the Trait and Relic kinda removes alot of the "smash" from your captain.
If you've slashed out for a thunder hammer I think the relic is a good idea as its a big improvement, depending on what you want him to go after master crafting it instead for 4 Dam could be useful but only if you have a way of re-rolling hits.

I think you want the Stormshield on him (as he has a two handed weapon mounting a smaller shield on his arm or back can work well), wasting a WL trait or Relic slot to get what a 10pt item can give you is a big opportunity cost you are paying. If you still want to take the armour it's even better with the SS as you go to a 1+ save and can nicely tank AP0,-1,-2.

Warlord trait wise I think the two best options are Imperiums Sword for the Re-roll charge and extra attack/Str or Gift of Foresight for the extra reliability and survivability it bring - both together is boss!

Speed of the primarch is a trap, it says always strikes first which sounds great but it doesn't really work that way. The rare rules section of the rulebook explains how these things interact but basically it works as follows:

You charge - you get to hit first anyway, it has no effect.

You get charged - the enemy gets to choose one of their chargers to attack first then you get to choose your always strikes first dude - sounds wrong but thats how it is. Charging basically gives always strikes first in which case the player who's turn it is chooses the first combatant in the strikes first step of the combat phase.

It does have a small use for stopping always strikes last effects but that is pretty edge case.

Thanks for the feedback!

Firstly, no I'm not going to be running him as a Death Company version at present, though I am strongly considering building an alternative version of this character later complete with the suggested storm shield + Artificer Armor & master crafted 4 damage hammer + Imperium's Sword WL Trait.

As for the current Hammer Captain, this is the model I'm using:


My decision right now is do I make him as killy as possible, hammer of baal relic with a pistol of some kind (likely Inferno) and Gift of Forsight/Imperium's Sword, or do I give him Ob-Sec/turn off opponent's ob-sec utility at the cost of his smashy-ness.

I'm leaning toward staying dangerous/killy vs. trying to do too many things at once and not being as effective at his job: Smashing stuff.

I'll playtest these options and see which one I like the most.

Appreciate the feedback WisdomLS. I'll update once I have a chance to get some actual dice rolled and see what my results are.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

EldarExarch wrote:
DC Intercessors question since we were just talking about them. Heard this the other day and wondering if someone with the book/rules can confirm - DC Intercessor Sergeants cannot take special-weapon upgrades outside of Pistols per RAW (if the unit takes all Chainswords)!!!?

This is terrible and wastes the units potential even further if true.

Sorry I missed that in the data sheet because of the ridiculous way it phrases the options on that entry ( like all of the intercessor entries in the main SM book).

So if I took a unit of DC intercessors with heavy bolt pistols and chainswords I couldn’t give one of them a power sword/fist or a thunder hammer but if they had bolt rifles of some kind I could?

But a unit of firstborn death company can all take power swords/axes/mauls/fists or thunder hammers?

Surely this is an errata in the making

No its because primaris only allow sgt (1 model to take TH)

Annoyingly there’s an image of a death company intercessors squad in the supplement in the army showcase section all with chain swords and one of them has a power sword!

It was probably an error and just poor wording on the writer's point. Hence the showcase of an 'illegal' loadout.
However, if my experience of GW's other games is anything to go by, now it's published they won't admit error and just continue with that being 'just as intended'.

In fairness faq are out next week so give them a chance

 kirotheavenger wrote:
It was probably an error and just poor wording on the writer's point. Hence the showcase of an 'illegal' loadout.
However, if my experience of GW's other games is anything to go by, now it's published they won't admit error and just continue with that being 'just as intended'.

If they're anything like me it might be more due to them reading the unit entry about a dozen times, still failing to understand what the restrictions actually are and just going "feth it". I'm really struggling to figure out what GW were trying to achieve with the DC Intercessor entry, both literally (as in, it's really difficult to understand) and in terms of balance. Assuming I'm understanding the loadout options and restrictions it just seems really unnecessary.

I'm pretty sure what they meant is that the whole unit could have either rifles or swords, and of those one person could have one fancy melee weapons.
But they didn't realise that the way they worded those options, taking swords overrode the ability to take a fancy melee weapon.

They were probably so rushed to write this that they only read it once, figured it made sense to them, then passed it off.
GW seems to lack technical editors, so the editor just checked that it made linguistic sense (having no concept of what the mechanic should be) and passed it along.
And that's how we ended up with what we have.

The FAQ may fix it. In fairness the 40k team is way better equipped/managed than the specialist games team so it may well get fixed.

FAQ out - changed so that putting things into assault doctrine with sanguinary priest grants the +1A from our super doctrine

Inceptor/outrider/eradicator pts increase

Big nerf forlorn fury - one use only

Insignificant nerf sanguinor

Death company intercessors wording correct so you can have one special melee weapon

Clarified artisan of war on librarian dreadnoughts for people that can't read

Not that you would use the angels sacrifice strat but slight change

Slay the warmaster death vision huge nerf only the death company model loses attacks not the monster/character your hitting

No resing ATV with sanguinary priest

If you win roll to go first you go first no choice

Changes to primary mission player 2 final turn scores at end of turn

secondary missions anti vehicle and anti psyker secondarys have been nerfed substantially

Blade of Sanguinius secondary fixed - can't be cheated by your opponent permanently reserving a model

well ww played the forlorn as single use anyway..

I disagree with you, Angel's sacrifice is one of best strats to have in the toolbox. It isn't a nerf, just clarification.

I feared thst we would get some points increase to sanguinary guard so nothing bad from the faq for BA. Inceptor increase in points is what 25'ish points increase / squad so really manageable.

I've found the new BA really strong in the current meta.

As a BA player I didn't see the outriders points increase and eradicators could have gone up +10p and people would have still used them.

Outriders and bike squads were pretty evenly matched before now bike squads are marginally more optimal but the cost increase is not significant.

The lnerf to the death vision is situational but huge the ability to have a mortarian make no attacks was really strong.

the forlorn fury change probably puts the final nail in a DC build which is sad as it was more interesting if maybe less effective.

Overall efficiency aside, now that the FAQ has definitively ruled on the weapon options available for Death Company Intercessors, what builds are people considering? Guns vs melee? Special weapon on “Sgt”? 5 vs 10?

I have 9 with ABR and 1 fist and I'm going to try them like that to begin with. I do have 2 more I can make so if they don't work I'll try 2x5 and see how that goes.

I'm tempted by a melee squad with the thoughts of making a full Death Company army in the future. I don't think it would play the 9th ed game very well but I'd certainly enjoy playing the fluffy side (kill 'em all and die trying).

I see no reason to use death company intercessors the unit is weak for its points as it can't take real melee weapons so sanguinary guard, vanguard vets or LC terminators will always be better. Meanwhile they are too slow to forlorn hope and if your gonna reserve them assault intercessors do a more pts efficient job because of the fight twice strat.

So sad to see the state of blood angel affairs after martel/second chance left. rip.

I'm looking to get back into 40k with my first army: blood angels. Although since my old army is gone, i'm starting again with primaris. My angle is that they're 'marines' who from the beginning of 8th seemed to be primarily shooting focus, while still being annoying in a TAC (*1) because every time they charge or you charge them they get +1 to wound (*2). I can field a 1k list atm, but it'll change radically at 2k (*3)

at 1k points: (lets see if i remember spoilers)



The plan is, the (*6) *deep breath* incessors hold the back objective, the infiltrators hold *near* a mid objective (*7) with the librarian and leap onto it, the gravis look scary although tbh they don't need the captain so he can protect and objective from assault. The reavers (who for some reason can't infiltrate) use their movement shennanigans to get near the backfield with the inceptors. I'll throw the reivers in if i need combat for sure, but with the right deepstrike i can just park them <3 from an enemy to screw their morale and then shoot them till they run away from basic stuff. Plus they're no slouches in close combat (*8)

Thoughts and opinions are welcome. I'm building towards 1,500 points (which will change the list a fair bit towards more heavy support) (*9) but i'm hopefully not looking to go much higher than that as i like when you have to make hard choices on what you bring.



*1 its a long way off, but i prefer tac lists
*2 in addition to shock assault and assault doctrine attack
*3 primaris mephiston was one of my first purchases and paint jobs, but he might be cheesy and i wanna start casual, also i painted his armour blue because gdi mephiston you're a librarian, go back and paint your armour till you're ready to come back out
*4 yeah my indomintus finally came in, and outriders are better for low range fast attacks. But dangit i don't think aggressors are that bad overall and the autohit feature is something i'm lacking.
*5 yeah i know, they look bad on paper for dps. But the shenanigans they can cause (depending on board), like -2 leadership when they're more than 1" away while everyone who can shoots at the target? its like the spider pig from the simpsons, i need to at least see what i can do with them. Plus, they look cool with double-vanes
*6 its hurting my brain remembering all the snowflake names
*7 my understanding is that you can't place an objective in terrain
*8 why gw, why didn't you give them chainswords.
*9 if and when they get assembled and painted

*edit whoops spoilers

Your list feels like it would be better as a non blood angel list you have ignored the melee options and special units that make BA lists unique and BA offers little to the units you have picked that other chapters can't do better.

If it were me I would not consider any of those units in a BA list except the intercessors and even then I would probably go for assault intercessors

Combat bolters are weak compared to plasma on interceptors
Aggressers are weak since 9th codex
Reivers are terrible
The only librarian worth taking is the dreadnought and I'm not sure that makes the cut
And the gravis captain is outmatched by its old school equivalents

If I were looking at units this would be your core

HQ 2-3
Terminator CPT Thunder hammer combi-melta (your buffer to Land with your deepstrikerz)
LIBRARIAN dreadnought/lemartes (Your T1 CC missile)
Astorath/primaris chaplain on bike. (Half buff/half beatstick)
Sanguinor (counter charger i don't think he makes the cut in most lists but he's an interesting option)

Troop 3
Assault intercessors
Incursors
Infiltrators

Elt 6
0-1 Company champion/judicar
3 sanguinary guard axes
0-3 vanguard stormshield and lightning claw
1 assault terminators lightning claw
0-3 bladeguard veterens

Less competative but viable options to fill out your list in my preference order
Land speeder storms
Attack bikes
Eradicators
0-1 death company
CPT jump pack Thunder Hammer combi melta
Plasma intercessors
Tarrantula
More troops
Hellblasters - assault plasma
Sanguinary priest/corbulo
Outriders
DC Dread/Furioso from reserves

U02dah4 wrote:
Your list feels like it would be better as a non blood angel list you have ignored the melee options and special units that make BA lists unique and BA offers little to the units you have picked that other chapters can't do better.

Well i probably should have explained myself better, to get an idea of the tactics and strategy. But yeah my self imposed restriction is only primaris (i want to like the models, but thats a subjective thing), and yeah my mentality is i was playing when blood angels were a paint scheme and death company. I've always viewed them more as wannabe ultramarines who keep screwing up because they become mental over time. They're basically vanilla with enhanced cc abilities should it come to that. Part of that came from when i bought into dark millenium as well, where everything was shooty. I have indomintus but not assembled or painted yet. But i'm also one to try to take TAC lists, and this one is formed into two groups: defense and offense. Half the army can start anywhere, and the other half defends the backfield/advances on contested objectives (the aggressors).

U02dah4 wrote:
If it were me I would not consider any of those units in a BA list except the intercessors and even then I would probably go for assault intercessors

I wanted to start with a 'tame' list and hopefully find a similar community, but i can cheese it up if needed after my first few games. But like back in 4th/5th i was always complaining about heroes like captain slamguinius, that's just not right its just one dude. I can do it, i just don't want to. Do you really think its that bad, that i may as well just go cheaper cc troops and contest the midfield in a grind?

U02dah4 wrote:
Combat bolters are weak compared to plasma on interceptors
Aggressers are weak since 9th codex
Reivers are terrible
The only librarian worth taking is the dreadnought and I'm not sure that makes the cut
And the gravis captain is outmatched by its old school equivalents

Well, i'm working on a 1,500 point list (my ideal playsize) that is very different, but i thought some of these units could work. Plus it makes my list fluffy in case someone has a worse codex or something, i don't mind losing a few games. But, i don't think aggressors are weak, just not as good as they were before. Outriders can get there quicker, but they don't have powerfists and autohit flamers. Autohit could be very useful against something like harlequins or demons, who don't suffer ap anyways. Reivers are a challenge to me, since i heard martel say they were decent. Its going to be very situational, but look at their movement shennanigans and ability to deepstrike. I would try to run them within <3 and just sit there while everyone else shoots that unit, and then hello -2 leadership. But yeah, at 1,500 they won't be in the list. As for the gravis captain, well i've got him painted but what i really want is the heavy gravis captain, who isn't for sale yet it seems.

U02dah4 wrote:

If I were looking at units this would be your core

HQ 2-3
Terminator CPT Thunder hammer combi-melta (your buffer to Land with your deepstrikerz)
LIBRARIAN dreadnought/lemartes (Your T1 CC missile)
Astorath/primaris chaplain on bike. (Half buff/half beatstick)
Sanguinor (counter charger i don't think he makes the cut in most lists but he's an interesting option)

Troop 3
Assault intercessors
Incursors
Infiltrators

Elt 6
0-1 Company champion/judicar
3 sanguinary guard axes
0-3 vanguard stormshield and lightning claw
1 assault terminators lightning claw
0-3 bladeguard veterens

Less competative but viable options to fill out your list in my preference order
Land speeder storms
Attack bikes
Eradicators
0-1 death company
CPT jump pack Thunder Hammer combi melta
Plasma intercessors
Tarrantula
More troops
Hellblasters - assault plasma
Sanguinary priest/corbulo
Outriders
DC Dread/Furioso from reserves

Yeah, well as said before, i'm looking at pure primaris. If it helps, i'll post a list of what i've got to work with atm:


The thing is, my list has no transport (and doesn't look like it will, the transport options for primaris are kinda bad imo), but being a blood angel i get +1 to advance and charge.

If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.

I've always viewed them more as wannabe ultramarines who keep screwing up because they become mental over time. They're basically vanilla with enhanced cc abilities should it come to that.

Didn't know Matt Ward was on Dakka

Lol

U02dah4 wrote:If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.

No offense, but you said it in your own reply. This isn't the strategy and list building forum, this is the tactics forum. Its not what you've got, its how do you best use it? Otherwise i may as well just chase the dragon and net-list. Up for a conversation on how to use what i've got beyond: buy something else? ?

SirGunslinger wrote:

I've always viewed them more as wannabe ultramarines who keep screwing up because they become mental over time. They're basically vanilla with enhanced cc abilities should it come to that.

Didn't know Matt Ward was on Dakka

Cute, i'm aware of the meme. You know what's really sad? This is the most activity i've seen in the ba tactics thread for months. But laugh at me all you want, i've got broad shoulders.

U02dah4 wrote:Lol

Good post there.

I honestly miss martel at this point, this is what the ba community has left on dakka? Very sad.

 Torga_DW wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.

No offense, but you said it in your own reply. This isn't the strategy and list building forum, this is the tactics forum. Its not what you've got, its how do you best use it? Otherwise i may as well just chase the dragon and net-list. Up for a conversation on how to use what i've got beyond: buy something else? ?

That's not really how 40k works, TBH. Quite a lot of the game is about your list. If you start with a really bad list you're going to struggle to make up for that disadvantage through tactics. Looking at what you've got I'm struggling to see how it's really a BA army at all. For example, Incursors are better than Infiltrators for BA despite performing almost the same role in the battlefield thanks to their superior close combat abilities. The same is true of Reivers, who just don't really have a role in most SM armies.

I think your army suffers from a lack of focus. You've got a small amount of a lot of things but none of it really provides a coherent threat. You've got decent fire support from the Inceptors and Intercessors, but not really that much. You have mediocre close combat with the Infiltrators and Reivers but lack any real punch for dealing with heavier targets. The captain is too slow to keep up with the forward-deploying assault units and the Aggressors are too slow in general. I think you'll likely find your army gets picked off piecemeal because you don't really have enough of any one type of threat to force opponents into difficult targeting decisions.

Sadly, from a tactical perspective, that means the best advice here is to change the army list fairly significantly. Adding some Assault Intercessors, for example, would give more close combat threats. Changing the Inceptor's weapons to plasma would give you some moderate anti-tank (something you completely lack at the moment). Changing the captain to something a bit more mobile would be better than taking a slow, poorly equipped and expensive character.

Slipspace wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.

No offense, but you said it in your own reply. This isn't the strategy and list building forum, this is the tactics forum. Its not what you've got, its how do you best use it? Otherwise i may as well just chase the dragon and net-list. Up for a conversation on how to use what i've got beyond: buy something else? ?

That's not really how 40k works, TBH. Quite a lot of the game is about your list. If you start with a really bad list you're going to struggle to make up for that disadvantage through tactics. Looking at what you've got I'm struggling to see how it's really a BA army at all. For example, Incursors are better than Infiltrators for BA despite performing almost the same role in the battlefield thanks to their superior close combat abilities. The same is true of Reivers, who just don't really have a role in most SM armies.

I think your army suffers from a lack of focus. You've got a small amount of a lot of things but none of it really provides a coherent threat. You've got decent fire support from the Inceptors and Intercessors, but not really that much. You have mediocre close combat with the Infiltrators and Reivers but lack any real punch for dealing with heavier targets. The captain is too slow to keep up with the forward-deploying assault units and the Aggressors are too slow in general. I think you'll likely find your army gets picked off piecemeal because you don't really have enough of any one type of threat to force opponents into difficult targeting decisions.

Sadly, from a tactical perspective, that means the best advice here is to change the army list fairly significantly. Adding some Assault Intercessors, for example, would give more close combat threats. Changing the Inceptor's weapons to plasma would give you some moderate anti-tank (something you completely lack at the moment). Changing the captain to something a bit more mobile would be better than taking a slow, poorly equipped and expensive character.

Brother, i have been playing 40k since first edition. Yes, i know list is important, but so is playgroup. Here's where i'm coming from: I can build up to cheese, and i did actually post the other minis i have available to play with. The thing is, i remember this back in 3rd: oh blood angels are cc, you have to rhino rush only. Chase the dragon. BA are a melee force only, and to be fair since 5th they did reinforce that with sang guard. But i played 5th, and they made marine tank company a ba thing and nerfed by points death company with jet packs. I almost thought about buying a tank army, but then realized sure enough its a fad.

But i do like the advice you did do. I posted what i have to play with, and can assemble/paint new models from that as needed. What makes me sad, is this all just seems to be: chase the netlist. Chase the dragon. I've played in mos eisely, and if i can find a group down here (which is seeming hard, checked facebook,, google, etc) that's step 1. But cheese is easy, just follow the netlist. What i was looking at with my list, it clocks in exactly at 1k points. With no heavy weapons.

I've looked at the meta, instead of aggressors i should be running outriders. I'm still sellable on the assault intercessors instead of normal, but that just makes me sad because it basically means: invest totally in cc and throw everything forwards into melee constantly. I was kinda hoping there'd be more to it.

We're not recommending anything considered cheese.

But your asking for help while insulting: the people trying to help you, all competative players, fluff players

People have given you what you need take it or ignore it but check your attitude

And yes the abc of blood angels lists is always be charging its what our chapter does

How do you guys plan to tackle Death Guard in a TAC list?

Shooting outside of Gravis units (Inceptor, Eradicator) seems not very point efficient. Either lacking in number of shots or not doing more than 2 damage.

Melee wise I'm flirting with Cybots. Death Company Cybots, to be precise.

What are your thoughts?

Stabbing in melee is traditional

but cutting, sliceing, bashing, smashing and crushing in melee will all do in a pintch.

It's the same thing we do about every army.

I'm not sure there's much of a need to change as a result of DG only a couple of people play the faction and we shouldn't be investing in much shooting anyway thats for other marines

I still favour a combination of SG vanguard and lightning claw terminators

With the double nerf to DC in the FAQ (forlorn+visions) the only DC unit i will take is lemartes as an anti infiltrator missile

I don't see any way for BA to beat Death Guard right now, even if they tool for it. I played a game last weekend with a very solid BA list against an unoptimized Death Guard list played by a worse player, albeit coached by a good player, and still lost by a solid 15, and got almost tabled, despite being generally agreed to have played well. My kill tally? 3 plague drones and a squad of Marines.

A melee army, especially one that depends on D2 like Blood Angels just cannot function against Death Guard 2.0, criminally undercosted as they are at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe soup in a squad of Kastellans?

If that is all you killed i suspect a problem with your list and objectives but cannot comment without seeing it

The -1D has no impact on lightning claws so vanguard or terminators which should be a key part of your line up it also has no impact on things like assault intercessors that work out of volume of attacks

While every character should be 3D or better

If your trying to win a shootout with blood angels your building wrong we don't do tac well because our bonuses are all focused on CC

I mean i field a unit of 8 assault intercessors in CC turn 3 (coming on from reserves with reroll charges and +1 to charge) they output 8 pistol shots then 41A hitting on 2's rr1's S4+1toW ap2 with a fight twice strat and thats not one of our top CC units

I made a quick calculation to compare some BA melee units to see how many points we pay to do one wound to a Plague Marine in actual melee combat.
I don't take shooting or any buffs on either side into account, only looking at the first round of combat where +1 attack and +1 to wound triggers.

Points per wound - Unit
20,25 - Sanguinary Guard w. axe
23,63 - Bladeguard Veteran
24,00 - Death Company Intercessor w. Chainsword
26,00 - Vanguard Veteran w. lightning claw and shield
28,50 - Assault Intercessor
28,80 - Aggressor
30,00 - Death Company Marine w. Chainsword
40,11 - Death Company Dreadnought
56,25 - Outrider

Now some units bring more to the table than their melee output. Aggressor do have a respectable horde clearing capability, which we might need against Poxwalker and similar targets. Bladeguard Veterans being hard to shift from an objective and so on.

But this should give us a good idea what to expect when we send units into melee against Death Guard.