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 Mothsniper wrote:

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm

there is a difference between pay 2 play like the MMORPG or pay to play like GW.
none of them are pay2win,

unlike WoW were as soon as you stop paying you cannot play at all, you don't need to keep paying GW to play
but GW have their marketing that keeps you there were WoW need to deliever content wort playing and not just shiny new graphics

I suppose it depends on the region. Around here, there's two GW stores for a 5 million urban area, and neither are conveniently located for most people. Those stores probably account for like 5% of sales in the area tops, and likely more like 1%.

My impression is GW in the UK derives a massively higher percentage of its sale from GW-branded stores than anywhere else. I can totally see it being the case that its UK profits have been hit harder than profits in other areas as a result.

For all the love GW suppose to have for stores they act realy bad towords them. They prioritise their online store over them. And I guess it isn't that much problem in UK with GW store in every city, but it is different when you country has one GW store or non.

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm

there is a difference between pay 2 play like the MMORPG or pay to play like GW.
none of them are pay2win,

unlike WoW were as soon as you stop paying you cannot play at all, you don't need to keep paying GW to play
but GW have their marketing that keeps you there were WoW need to deliever content wort playing and not just shiny new graphics

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

Thank you lads for input. IN CONCLUSION!
So all in all, GW is a UK based company that does not outsource the development and production, and using some would say "standard" marketing tricks to maximize profits, as a good capitalist company should.
And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

For all the love GW suppose to have for stores they act realy bad towords them. They prioritise their online store over them. And I guess it isn't that much problem in UK with GW store in every city, but it is different when you country has one GW store or non.

Yeah, there's a weirdly antagonistic relationship there. They put unreal pressure for numbers on the store managers, but then set up the stores so that they really (in the ones I've been to in the US at least) seem to only cater to very new players. Need a start collecting box for your first army? Right this way sir! 15 year veteran looking to build out your list? Let me introduce you to our web store ...

I've actually tried a bunch of times to give the local GW store a sale, but everything I want is online only, so I either end up getting it online, or going to the independent LGS which, ironically has a better selection of "Warhammer" than the actual local "Warhammer Store" ...

It feels like the idea from corporate is - Set the stores up to bring people into the hobby and then ween them off the "physical store" and onto the web store once they've matured in the hobby. Which is fine in a vacuum but kind of falls down if the idea is that you're trying to build up a community to play the games.

It may be different in the UK, but that's been my experience in the US too. Independent stores are usually the real hobby hubs of the area; the GW store, if it exists at all, is more like the showrooms you sometimes see for stuff like online cosmetics companies. It's there to get people into the hobby, but its selection is usually poor, and it rarely has much of a local community.

They're also in a weird place for selling stuff because they can't compete on price with the 15% discount independents can offer, but they can't compete on selection with the online store either. So expecting people to actually buy many products there once they get into the hobby seems pretty odd.

 Mothsniper wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm

there is a difference between pay 2 play like the MMORPG or pay to play like GW.
none of them are pay2win,

unlike WoW were as soon as you stop paying you cannot play at all, you don't need to keep paying GW to play
but GW have their marketing that keeps you there were WoW need to deliever content wort playing and not just shiny new graphics

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

Thank you lads for input. IN CONCLUSION!
So all in all, GW is a UK based company that does not outsource the development and production, and using some would say "standard" marketing tricks to maximize profits, as a good capitalist company should.
And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

First of all you live in ‘Muricuh so yeah... in the words of Todd Wilemon, just “stop being poor” XD literally how most people that have never been poor in their life think. I feel for you though because the books alone add 100$ just to play the game each year, and being newly married, it’s really hard to set money aside for a hobby like that. I’m not even poor.

But the problem doesn't always seem to be the relative cost of stuff made by GW, although sometimes they do boch it with something like the dual eldar box, but the cost to quality of the product they make. No one wants to pay more for stuff, but it is way worse to think you over paid for a foulty product, or be informed that the engine for the car you just bought is sold separatly.

Now I know only 8th ed, but no one is going to tell me that spliting some codex, just so they can sell additional books at full price is a good thing to do. Or making patch releases that fix the game they botched a paid update. not even mobile games do stuff like that.

Ah yes “I botched the product so pay me more to fix that flaw and make several more I can charge more money to fix down the line.”

yukishiro1 wrote:
It may be different in the UK, but that's been my experience in the US too. Independent stores are usually the real hobby hubs of the area; the GW store, if it exists at all, is more like the showrooms you sometimes see for stuff like online cosmetics companies. It's there to get people into the hobby, but its selection is usually poor, and it rarely has much of a local community.

They're also in a weird place for selling stuff because they can't compete on price with the 15% discount independents can offer, but they can't compete on selection with the online store either. So expecting people to actually buy many products there once they get into the hobby seems pretty odd.

Well it makes sense if they're only using their storefronts as a gateway to the funnel. The starter items will have a steady rate of sales as almost every beginner will buy one or a couple at some point. And that stream should be fairly easy to predict.
Overall low cost and low complexity to manage.

While the rest of the catalog that has a higher chance of having slow moving items is retailed by a third party that takes some of the profit but also takes on the risk of having to stock it for a longer period if it's a dud.
Besides having a higher margin on their online sales the benefit of sales there is also that it can be a lot leaner than the storefronts.

If their production is running at full tilt at all times I can imagine that they need to expend a lot of effort into predicting demand cutting and limiting the physical retail locations to a subset of the catalog would simplify this.

It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

aye, and unlike video games you can't implement bots into 40k to cover the loss of players.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

aye, and unlike video games you can't implement bots into 40k to cover the loss of players.

The same people willing to pay $100 for 20 Hammerers will carry the company no matter how much they overcharge. They won't get a game in, but at least GW gets to stay in business.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It may be different in the UK, but that's been my experience in the US too. Independent stores are usually the real hobby hubs of the area; the GW store, if it exists at all, is more like the showrooms you sometimes see for stuff like online cosmetics companies. It's there to get people into the hobby, but its selection is usually poor, and it rarely has much of a local community.

They're also in a weird place for selling stuff because they can't compete on price with the 15% discount independents can offer, but they can't compete on selection with the online store either. So expecting people to actually buy many products there once they get into the hobby seems pretty odd.

thats pretty much how it is in my corner of the Shire but the indie is an hour or so away by car so folks just tend to use the local GW I rarely do as my tolerance for people even pre-Event is poor and the opening hours dont align with when I go mundane shopping

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

Oh, we're back to the GW is doomed to fail tag line? Excellent. Genuinely haven't seen that one in a while.

 Mothsniper wrote:
Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

5 Incubi $55 bucks?! that is $11 per model, are you kidding me. I can eat out for a week.

Repentia squad $55 bucks, that is quite an investment, but kinda reasonable, but kinda not.
Retributor Squad, $55 bucks... I am done.

Is this normal, or I have not been at a local shop in a while?

I just want to point out that at $11 USD a model, Retributors are $5USD/model cheaper than when they were in metal.

So for long term Sisters players they're actually more affordable for the most part.

 Mothsniper wrote:

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

I never played one that was, and I played a lot in the past years

 Mothsniper wrote:

So all in all, GW is a UK based company that does not outsource the development and production, and using some would say "standard" marketing tricks to maximize profits, as a good capitalist company should.
And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

kind of
GW is much like Apple in this case

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

I never played one that was, and I played a lot in the past years

If the metric is F2P MMOs, several of them are very much P2W.

The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

GW just can't produce the volume needed to hit their margins properly. It'd be nice if they could because we could see a real price break, but they haven't even been able to open the expanded plant yet, and they struggle to keep stuff in stock even when we don't have a pandemic on our hands.

While I applaud them for not just outsourcing all casting to China as that has proven to have countless issues in the past, I feel they need to greatly expand production so that they can make more on volume than they do per kit.

It'd also help the game see wider sales as more retailers could pick it up.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

if your Hobby is Games Workshop, than yes

if your hobby is tabletop/wargaming, no the prices for our hobby are not absurd and never have been

 Platuan4th wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

I never played one that was, and I played a lot in the past years

If the metric is F2P MMOs, several of them are very much P2W.

but not all and none of the Pay2Play MMO's are
most of them are just grindy as hell and get money by offering time saving stuff but this is not pay2win

In some ways it might be a good thing.

Hear me out - we saw that GW and the model market they support isn't good with movie-tie-ins like Lord of the Rings. Big market growth followed by rapid contraction isn't a good model for GW. Plus continual release and burn games aren't good for their established customer base either.

GW is safer with a steadier expansion which reflects gains in long term customers rather than a rapid expansion that might well have more casual/short term gamers that burn out quickly. Resulting in a need for continual new and product refreshing.

Rather than chasing the quick buck GW is better placed to chase the perhaps lower, but more stable buck.


Don't get me wrong, more gamers is a good thing, but I just feel that GW wants more long term customers rather than short term gluts. Furthermore its better for groups and clubs.
Certainly GW has been expanding their production to meet with rapid rising demand, by the standards of the wargaming hobby market rather than, say movie or other markets.

 Mothsniper wrote:

And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

Honestly the best solution is to find a game/publisher that prices their kits differently or just embraces the bring whatever model you want philosophy.
There are trade offs but you likely wont look back. I know I don't except for a box here or there for the stuff I really like from GW.

Shinji wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

Honestly the best solution is to find a game/publisher that prices their kits differently or just embraces the bring whatever model you want philosophy.
There are trade offs but you likely wont look back. I know I don't except for a box here or there for the stuff I really like from GW.

Or, if you are a local group of close friends go third party counts as?

Tamaya wasps 1:35 make for decent basi / griffon stand ins.

Anvil makes far superior customizable and equipable guardsmen options.

Mantic has some really nice bigger things for count as daemons potentially.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

Oh, we're back to the GW is doomed to fail tag line? Excellent. Genuinely haven't seen that one in a while.

I goddamn challenge you to find anything in my post that alludes to GW's collapse. I stated that gamers who will support the company no matter HOW expensive their product gets will keep their lights on, but this will harm or even cripple customer influx.

Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

Because nobody will do anything to counter it. Goldswords became the norm because buyers enabled it to do so.

I think gw could actually increase their profits by making their products more appealing/value for the customers. This could be achieved by putting more sprues in a box. Like the incubi one, double the minis but keep same price. The production cost is pretty much the same. Or it could achieved by lowering prices. I doubt they sell that good. Alot of boxes probably sit on shelves for years because they are so unappealing to buy.

Haven't bought much of anything in a years, and the last price hike was the final straw for me and won't be giving a single dollar more to GW.

When I first started playing, infantry boxes were $20 and contained all the extra bits you could want and then some. Now, they are twice as expensive or more and contain less models. Not to mention the ever inflating cost of new kits over old ones. I quit for many years mainly due to prices, and came back for 8th only to get fed up with the exact same thing. The gouging never ends and has only gotten worse with time. Now, on the rare occasions play with the models I already have and pirate the books.

Its funny you say that when literally 2000 points and the rule book is being sold for $200, and they are ok with everyone getting the box or more than 1.

Then if you look at some of the star collecting (more so for AOS) you can make viable armies out of a few of them.

Yes some of the units and models are way overcosted, but then you have many that are just a steal compare to any other time in 40k/aos/fantasy history. Then you have to look at inflation, Venoms when released in 2010 are at the price they should be for 2020, the same of many other units.

If you are going to point out the outliers $11 for 1 infantry model, you need to look at the other side of it too,

if you mean otherside?

See, GW is not the only model company, if people would leave the whole GW'sphere, then they'd find, that alot more are out there, that produce equal quality or higher (especially in the resin material department) to gw FOR vastly less money.

Not Online!!! wrote:
if you mean otherside?

See, GW is not the only model company, if people would leave the whole GW'sphere, then they'd find, that alot more are out there, that produce equal quality or higher (especially in the resin material department) to gw FOR vastly less money.

Not vastly for high quality, having order from 20 other places, GW plastics are for sure superior in quality for materials and things like negative space. They lack the idea of non-PC grim dark, example, Raging Heroes. While the models are awesome and has good detail, the quality really isn't the same, its equal to finecast for the same cost as GW, you are spending $10-30 per each infantry model. If you want cheap the Reaper is cheap, but the are low detail, smaller, and you can easily tell the artists are not as good.

The best for quality and cheapest i would say is zealot miniatures https://zealotminiatures.com/zealot-shop/#!/Drakenmir-the-Bonelord-Vampire/p/150080664/category=8326659 But their quality is still not as good. And they are actually rather small, 60mm for a Minotaur.

There are many others that are just way to costly for something that actually is better and more detailed than GW like scibor miniatures, amazing minis, but very costly, like $50 for 1 model the size of a Terminator, or a $35 Gor beastmen.