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So, given how much rerolls slow down the game (and how certain factions get far too much in the way of options for rerolls), it seems as if we need something along the lines of the Rof3...

Tactical Focus

There is a limit to how much guidance a unit can benefit from. Too much and the unit is unlikely to fully utilise the guidance they receive.

A unit may only benefit from one source of rerolls per phase. If they are within range of multiple sources of rerolls then, when they are activated during that phase you must first choose which reroll source they will use (i.e. before you start rolling dice).

This rule does not apply to rerolls provided by Strategems or to reroll abilities that are part of the unit's datasheet (i.e. a SM captain's own Rites of Battle ability, etc).

That sounds like it's just going to make things take longer, since you'll need to decide which source of re-rolls is going to be more efficient.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
That sounds like it's just going to make things take longer, since you'll need to decide which source of re-rolls is going to be more efficient.

Not really, it's just maths.

Taking SM for example, in most cases, you'd choose the chapter master hit rerolls over the lieutenant wound rerolls.

If you are running autohit weapons like flamers, etc, you'd probably take the reroll wounds.

I would fully expect the competitive players to have a chart telling them which reroll to use about 30 minutes after the rule dropped...

Which makes multiple HQs entirely useless as you're never going to take a Lt. or Chaplain over just getting the general Captain benefits.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which makes multiple HQs entirely useless as you're never going to take a Lt. or Chaplain over just getting the general Captain benefits.

It also makes certain other options uselesss. A troupe master gives to-wound rerolls. For 2CP, he can give to-hit rerolls to. This change would render one of those two rerolls useless. Plus, Salamander style rerolls would become a lot less useful.

Wanting to limit rerolls is understandable, but I'm not sure this is the way to go.

Question: When we say "rerolls slow down the game," these days, are we pretty much just talking about space marines? And if so, are we pretty much just talking about chapter masters + lieutenants and Guilliman? Maybe just changing one or two of the marine HQs to have My Will Be Done style rules instead of auras would go a long way.

Congratulations, you just broke multiple Chapter Tactic equivalents from across the entire game, as well as fundamentally altered how nearly every army plays on the table.

I get it, Marines are too damn much. But this aint going to fix that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which makes multiple HQs entirely useless as you're never going to take a Lt. or Chaplain over just getting the general Captain benefits.

Because a captain's aura is table wide, amirite?

If you are having to take and hold multiple objectives then you are less likely to have all your army within 6" of the captain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
It also makes certain other options uselesss. A troupe master gives to-wound rerolls. For 2CP, he can give to-hit rerolls to. This change would render one of those two rerolls useless. Plus, Salamander style rerolls would become a lot less useful.

Wanting to limit rerolls is understandable, but I'm not sure this is the way to go.

Question: When we say "rerolls slow down the game," these days, are we pretty much just talking about space marines? And if so, are we pretty much just talking about chapter masters + lieutenants and Guilliman? Maybe just changing one or two of the marine HQs to have My Will Be Done style rules instead of auras would go a long way.

Guess someone didn't read my OP. It wouldn't affect rerolls from strategems.

With regards to Salamanders/Master Artisan chapters - the single reroll to hit and single reroll to wound is from the same source, so you'd get both, you just couldn't stack it with Captain/Lt rerolls.

I agree that nerfing Captain/CM/Lt aura stacking would help, but can you seriously see a blanket change like that happening?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
Congratulations, you just broke multiple Chapter Tactic equivalents from across the entire game, as well as fundamentally altered how nearly every army plays on the table.

I get it, Marines are too damn much. But this aint going to fix that.

As stated in my above post, you're misinterpreting the rule.

I do still run BA. I am starting a Primaris army for BA using 2 Indomitus boxes. I still think this rule needs to happen.

sanguine40k wrote:

As stated in my above post, you're misinterpreting the rule.

No, I'm not. You've neglected to consider armies that have multiple interconnected parts, and assumed that everyone has a single reroll source. FSE Tau for instance (and they are not remotely the only example of this, simply the easiest example that I can recall the specific names of) rely on three separate abilities for rerolls, and none of them are datasheet abilities:

Aggressive Footing
Markerlights
Devastating Counterstrike

You just broke that faction. Well done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sanguine40k wrote:

I do still run BA. I am starting a Primaris army for BA using 2 Indomitus boxes. I still think this rule needs to happen.

Thank you for being honest that your primary goal is to nerf Marines. This remains an abjectly imprecise way to do that, and collaterally affects nearly every army in the game.

Sterling191 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

As stated in my above post, you're misinterpreting the rule.

No, I'm not. You've neglected to consider armies that have multiple interconnected parts, and assumed that everyone has a single reroll source. FSE Tau for instance (and they are not remotely the only example of this, simply the easiest example that I can recall the specific names of) rely on three separate abilities for rerolls, and none of them are datasheet abilities:

Aggressive Footing
Markerlights
Devastating Counterstrike

You just broke that faction. Well done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sanguine40k wrote:

I do still run BA. I am starting a Primaris army for BA using 2 Indomitus boxes. I still think this rule needs to happen.

Thank you for being honest that your primary goal is to nerf Marines. This remains an abjectly imprecise way to do that, and collaterally affects nearly every army in the game.

Of the 3 FSE abilities you describe, Aggressive Footing feeds into markerlights and isn't a direct source of rerolls (plus, markerlights need a rework, tbh).

While BA don't get access to the Chapter Master Strategem, they do still have access to rerolls from both captains and lieutenants and have much the same stat on Dante.

So your suggestion that I only want to nerf Marines is laughable.

They just happen to be the most egregious example of the overall issue - that rerolls are too common and they're slowing down the game.

sanguine40k wrote:

They just happen to be the most egregious example of the overall issue - that rerolls are too common and they're slowing down the game.

And so because you dont like the pace of the game, and have fallaciously decided that rerolls are the cause of that pace, you decide it's your obligation to break it?

That makes sense. But good on you to both admit that your solution actually breaks armies, and that you dont care so long as you get your precious Marine nerf. I think we're making progress here.

Sterling191 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

They just happen to be the most egregious example of the overall issue - that rerolls are too common and they're slowing down the game.

And so because you dont like the pace of the game, and have fallaciously decided that rerolls are the cause of that pace, you decide it's your obligation to break it?

That makes sense. But good on you to both admit that your solution actually breaks armies, and that you dont care so long as you get your precious Marine nerf. I think we're making progress here.

Nice to see you are *still* trying to put words into my mouth.

It's not just myself who have mentioned rerolls as one of the big bottlenecks in the gameflow. Edit: Thread of people on this forum regarding this exact issue.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790129.page#10870930

I have merely suggested a way to fix it. It provides others with ideas for their own suggested fixes. This *IS* the proposed rules forum, it's kind of the idea of this area.

I have also pointed out that it doesn't break armies, but simply makes it more of a tactical choice rather than the auto-faceroll rerolls are currently.

As I have already said, I play Marines myself and my second army is T'au, so it would directly affect both armies that I play.

If I really just wanted to nerf armies that I don't play, this is the last way I would go about it.

E- for trolling.
D+ for effort.

sanguine40k wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which makes multiple HQs entirely useless as you're never going to take a Lt. or Chaplain over just getting the general Captain benefits.

Because a captain's aura is table wide, amirite?

If you are having to take and hold multiple objectives then you are less likely to have all your army within 6" of the captain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
It also makes certain other options uselesss. A troupe master gives to-wound rerolls. For 2CP, he can give to-hit rerolls to. This change would render one of those two rerolls useless. Plus, Salamander style rerolls would become a lot less useful.

Wanting to limit rerolls is understandable, but I'm not sure this is the way to go.

Question: When we say "rerolls slow down the game," these days, are we pretty much just talking about space marines? And if so, are we pretty much just talking about chapter masters + lieutenants and Guilliman? Maybe just changing one or two of the marine HQs to have My Will Be Done style rules instead of auras would go a long way.

Guess someone didn't read my OP. It wouldn't affect rerolls from strategems.

With regards to Salamanders/Master Artisan chapters - the single reroll to hit and single reroll to wound is from the same source, so you'd get both, you just couldn't stack it with Captain/Lt rerolls.

I agree that nerfing Captain/CM/Lt aura stacking would help, but can you seriously see a blanket change like that happening?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
Congratulations, you just broke multiple Chapter Tactic equivalents from across the entire game, as well as fundamentally altered how nearly every army plays on the table.

I get it, Marines are too damn much. But this aint going to fix that.

As stated in my above post, you're misinterpreting the rule.

I do still run BA. I am starting a Primaris army for BA using 2 Indomitus boxes. I still think this rule needs to happen.

You really didn't understand my post. Let me make it super simple. Nobody is going to run 1 Captain and 1 Lt, and will always run 2 Captains.

sanguine40k wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
It also makes certain other options uselesss. A troupe master gives to-wound rerolls. For 2CP, he can give to-hit rerolls to. This change would render one of those two rerolls useless. Plus, Salamander style rerolls would become a lot less useful.

Wanting to limit rerolls is understandable, but I'm not sure this is the way to go.

Question: When we say "rerolls slow down the game," these days, are we pretty much just talking about space marines? And if so, are we pretty much just talking about chapter masters + lieutenants and Guilliman? Maybe just changing one or two of the marine HQs to have My Will Be Done style rules instead of auras would go a long way.

Guess someone didn't read my OP. It wouldn't affect rerolls from strategems.

[
I didn't realize that abilities imbued by stratagems counted as stratagems. The Great Harlequin strat basically gives a troupe master a new aura ability. Some followup questions to help me understand your pitch then:

* If we're saying that the rerolls granted by Great Harlequin are functionally rerolls from a strat, then does that mean that units can only benefit from EITHER the troupe master's to-wound rerolls OR the Great Harlequin aura that same troupe master now has?

* How about an archon with the writ of the living muse relic? The archon has a built-in to-hit reroll, but the relic grants to-wound rerolls. So is the relic considered to be its own "source" distinct from the archon himself?

* If either of the above examples grant both to-hit and to-wound rerolls, then how are they meaningfully different from having a captain and a lieutenant standing right next to each other?

With regards to Salamanders/Master Artisan chapters - the single reroll to hit and single reroll to wound is from the same source, so you'd get both, you just couldn't stack it with Captain/Lt rerolls.

Similar question then. If the Salamander rerolls are okay and are available to every unit in your salamanders army, then why are a captain + lieutenant duo not okay?

I agree that nerfing Captain/CM/Lt aura stacking would help, but can you seriously see a blanket change like that happening?

You're proposing changing how rerolls work for tons of sources game-wide. Changing a single ability on captains and tweaking the chapter master strat would be very limited changes in comparison to what you're proposing, no? You could almost just steal the wording from My Will Be Done .