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ebay is very clear about that, you are not allowed to use pictures from others for you product

Actually had that happen to me some photographs of my Epic Orks from my Dakka account were used on Ebay I got PM'd and asked them not to use them still don't know how I feel about it.

blaktoof wrote:
If they use an image of the box from GW website they can have eBay pull the listing.

If they are an official retailer they can't list the item by more than 10% above MSRP due to price gouging laws in most states. Well they can but their state department can put a cease and desist on their entire business and prosecute them for fines.

Which states have Price gouging laws like this ?

Game miniatures are non essential and there is no control of the market here during an emergency they are related to. Would Genuinely be interested if there are states with laws that would effect this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales. So a flat policy like this would not be useful.

Apple fox wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales.

It's auctions for items that the seller doesn't have yet, and won't have when the auction completes.

Think about all of the ways that that goes wrong. *cough* Kickstarter *cough*

 solkan wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales.

It's auctions for items that the seller doesn't have yet, and won't have when the auction completes.

Think about all of the ways that that goes wrong. *cough* Kickstarter *cough*

Some places dont use Auction, and just has Ebay as a online storefront. But even then, Auction sales are a legitimate Way of doing sale, even for pre orders. Sales go wrong all the time, Even at large stores like Target. And i have been in many kickstarter that go great, and only really 1 that fell though.
Should kickstarter implement a policy about you can only do a kickstarter if you wont do anything wrong ?

Apple fox wrote:

 solkan wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales.

It's auctions for items that the seller doesn't have yet, and won't have when the auction completes.

Think about all of the ways that that goes wrong. *cough* Kickstarter *cough*

Some places dont use Auction, and just has Ebay as a online storefront. But even then, Auction sales are a legitimate Way of doing sale, even for pre orders. Sales go wrong all the time, Even at large stores like Target. And i have been in many kickstarter that go great, and only really 1 that fell though.
Should kickstarter implement a policy about you can only do a kickstarter if you wont do anything wrong ?

Obviously, yes. There should definitely be penalties for people who don't fulfill their kickstarter obligations if they get their funding goals.

Auctions are indeed a thing. But they also have legal obligations to live up to- selling in bad faith is certainly illegal. 'Sales go wrong all the time'- whatever that means, there is still an obligation to make it right or face penalties.

Voss wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 solkan wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales.

It's auctions for items that the seller doesn't have yet, and won't have when the auction completes.

Think about all of the ways that that goes wrong. *cough* Kickstarter *cough*

Some places dont use Auction, and just has Ebay as a online storefront. But even then, Auction sales are a legitimate Way of doing sale, even for pre orders. Sales go wrong all the time, Even at large stores like Target. And i have been in many kickstarter that go great, and only really 1 that fell though.
Should kickstarter implement a policy about you can only do a kickstarter if you wont do anything wrong ?

Obviously, yes. There should definitely be penalties for people who don't fulfill their kickstarter obligations if they get their funding goals.

Auctions are indeed a thing. But they also have legal obligations to live up to- selling in bad faith is certainly illegal. 'Sales go wrong all the time'- whatever that means, there is still an obligation to make it right or face penalties.

What kind of penalties do you think ? They cannot meet the obligations, so what do you do in this case. Destroy there lives with lengthy battles to get nothing? Business failure is a reality and its part of risk assessment.
Selling in Bad faith is a massive Hill to die on, Its illegal but also quite a burden to prove. After now, they would know if they are getting copy so this discussion is partial hypothetical.

Things go bad, Things can go bad for many reasons. Sales go wrong for so many reasons. It was a response to Kickstarter and what could be done about it.. Funding goals, Money runs out, Suddenly they have to pay twice as much to fix something. Its gone, its a risk. But that does not mean they sold there Idea on Bad Faith.

Voss wrote:

Obviously, yes. There should definitely be penalties for people who don't fulfill their kickstarter obligations if they get their funding goals.

Auctions are indeed a thing. But they also have legal obligations to live up to- selling in bad faith is certainly illegal. 'Sales go wrong all the time'- whatever that means, there is still an obligation to make it right or face penalties.

Sadly for kickstarter unless they stole millions of dollars AND you can get the DA involved good luck, its impossible to get a backer to spearhead any sort of legal battle as the cost would be in the 10's if not hundreds of thousands of dollars over.. afew hundred dollars of product (depending on the project) and even if you try to use the kickstarter version of gathering legal fees almost 0 lawyers will take it, as seen with what happened with robotech rpg tactics.

Hell even horizon zero dawn board game just recently said lulz nope were not going to give you the collectors box that we have been advertising since the start of the product and prominently dispalyed in all the photos and was really the only benefit of the all in pledge.

kickstarter is such a risky place and its easy to get away with fraud, hell kickstarter doesn't even enforce its on policies.

but on topic im glad GW gave a giant middle finger to scalpers, i wasnt going to get the box set either way, but GW policies is what created these scalpers in the first place.

Apple fox wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If they use an image of the box from GW website they can have eBay pull the listing.

If they are an official retailer they can't list the item by more than 10% above MSRP due to price gouging laws in most states. Well they can but their state department can put a cease and desist on their entire business and prosecute them for fines.

Which states have Price gouging laws like this ?

Game miniatures are non essential and there is no control of the market here during an emergency they are related to. Would Genuinely be interested if there are states with laws that would effect this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales. So a flat policy like this would not be useful.

Most states have price gouging laws, most of them go into effect during emergency declarations, and most of them cover ALL goods and services not just "essential" items. The internet makes this dangerous for business because you have to comply with regulations for point of sale and point of purchase(shipping/billing).

CA for example if anyone sold indomitus online to a CA resident or it was sold from CA per California penal code 396, an increase in price of more than 10% is within 30 days of an Emergency declaration is price gouging by penal code. The max fine is 10,000 plus 5,000 dollars per item in violation.

The states are slow to go after people but it's so much money in fines that they do track it and do go after people, usually gaining tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands for the state, which is a driving factor to follow up and prosecute.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/financial-services-and-commerce/price-gouging-state-statutes.aspx#:~:text=Price%20gouging%20refers%20to%20when%20retailers%20and%20others,gouging%20during%20a%20time%20of%20disaster%20or%20emergency.

has some info on different states if you are curious, some of them limit what falls under price gouging, many of them have a limit of greater than 30 days (180 is not uncommon) after emergency declaration.

Needless to say a lot of these scalpers are potentially fubar if they are actual businesses. Just 10 items sold beyond the price gouging limit right now could constitute up to 60k in fines and possible jail time, essential or not.

blaktoof wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If they use an image of the box from GW website they can have eBay pull the listing.

If they are an official retailer they can't list the item by more than 10% above MSRP due to price gouging laws in most states. Well they can but their state department can put a cease and desist on their entire business and prosecute them for fines.

Which states have Price gouging laws like this ?

Game miniatures are non essential and there is no control of the market here during an emergency they are related to. Would Genuinely be interested if there are states with laws that would effect this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:
I think eBay should implement a policy forbidding putting up an auction for a product a person doesn't actually have yet.

So I'm perfectly happy with GW take down notices on auctions for people's preorders.

Why would be good in theory, Preorders are legitimate sales. So a flat policy like this would not be useful.

Most states have price gouging laws, most of them go into effect during emergency declarations, and most of them cover ALL goods and services not just "essential" items. The internet makes this dangerous for business because you have to comply with regulations for point of sale and point of purchase(shipping/billing).

CA for example if anyone sold indomitus online to a CA resident or it was sold from CA per California penal code 396, an increase in price of more than 10% is within 30 days of an Emergency declaration is price gouging by penal code. The max fine is 10,000 plus 5,000 dollars per item in violation.

The states are slow to go after people but it's so much money in fines that they do track it and do go after people, usually gaining tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands for the state, which is a driving factor to follow up and prosecute.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/financial-services-and-commerce/price-gouging-state-statutes.aspx#:~:text=Price%20gouging%20refers%20to%20when%20retailers%20and%20others,gouging%20during%20a%20time%20of%20disaster%20or%20emergency.

has some info on different states if you are curious, some of them limit what falls under price gouging, many of them have a limit of greater than 30 days (180 is not uncommon) after emergency declaration.

Needless to say a lot of these scalpers are potentially fubar if they are actual businesses. Just 10 items sold beyond the price gouging limit right now could constitute up to 60k in fines and possible jail time, essential or not.

You ignored a key phrase on the source you linked:

Price gouging refers to when retailers and others take advantage of spikes in demand by charging exorbitant prices for necessities, often after a natural disaster or other state of emergency. Thirty-six states, Guam, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands and the District of Columbia have statutes or regulations that defining price gouging during a time of disaster or emergency. In most states, price gouging is set as a violation of unfair or deceptive trade practices law. Most of these laws provide for civil penalties, as enforced by the state attorney general, while some state laws also enforce criminal penalties for price gouging violations.

From CA Penal Code 396: Source: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN§ionNum=396

(b) Upon the proclamation of a state of emergency declared by the President of the United States or the Governor, or upon the declaration of a local emergency by an official, board, or other governing body vested with authority to make that declaration in any county, city, or city and county, and for a period of 30 days following that proclamation or declaration, it is unlawful for a person, contractor, business, or other entity to sell or offer to sell any consumer food items or goods, goods or services used for emergency cleanup, emergency supplies, medical supplies, home heating oil, building materials, housing, transportation, freight, and storage services, or gasoline or other motor fuels for a price of more than 10 percent greater than the price charged by that person for those goods or services immediately prior to the proclamation or declaration of emergency. However, a greater price increase is not unlawful if that person can prove that the increase in price was directly attributable to additional costs imposed on it by the supplier of the goods, or directly attributable to additional costs for labor or materials used to provide the services, during the state of emergency or local emergency, and the price is no more than 10 percent greater than the total of the cost to the seller plus the markup customarily applied by the seller for that good or service in the usual course of business immediately prior to the onset of the state of emergency or local emergency.

Sorry for all the edits, trying to include relevant information.

The second section that you highlighted, refers to the seller has the right to increase their price in an equal amount to pay any increased costs they have to acquire the item they sell. i.e. if it suddenly goes up 25% for them to buy eggs from a distributor, they can increase their egg price 25%. They can then take that final price and increase it 10%.

It is location dependent.

If they used the same markup(which they did as the prices are in line with other parted out box sets) they normally would in a non emergency then they are still within the bounds of the law. Since the box set was not even on sale before the pandemic this law would not even apply to it as they did not increase the price beyond their customary rate prior to the pandemic.

(b) Upon the proclamation of a state of emergency declared by the President of the United States or the Governor, or upon the declaration of a local emergency by an official, board, or other governing body vested with authority to make that declaration in any county, city, or city and county, and for a period of 30 days following that proclamation or declaration, it is unlawful for a person, contractor, business, or other entity to sell or offer to sell any consumer food items or goods, goods or services used for emergency cleanup, emergency supplies, medical supplies, home heating oil, building materials, housing, transportation, freight, and storage services, or gasoline or other motor fuels for a price of more than 10 percent greater than the price charged by that person for those goods or services immediately prior to the proclamation or declaration of emergency. However, a greater price increase is not unlawful if that person can prove that the increase in price was directly attributable to additional costs imposed on it by the supplier of the goods, or directly attributable to additional costs for labor or materials used to provide the services, during the state of emergency or local emergency, and the price is no more than 10 percent greater than the total of the cost to the seller plus the markup customarily applied by the seller for that good or service in the usual course of business immediately prior to the onset of the state of emergency or local emergency.

It really depend on how far there copyright gets them i think on the issue, since someone with a trade account could be selling copy on ebay as well to make ends meet during things like lockdown. At which point i think GW would need to provide them with images for use if they dont allow them to use store images.
This comes mostly from GW having there own stores, and selling direct online in direct competition to other stores they sell to. The laws here can get specific in a lot of places, So it also would depend on where it is enforced.

Honestly, a big part of it also involves a weird quirk of British IP law as well. I can't find the thread anymore, but an actual lawyer broke it down real well in a thread a while back. Going to butcher it because I am NOT a lawyer, but the gist of it was that, essentially, the law requires you to challenge every instance of even potential IP theft (each one you're made aware of that is), or your claim to your IP can be threatened in future instances. This is very different from IP laws in the US where, if it's your IP, it's your IP. You look the other way because some high-school marching band is selling tshirts of Thor playing a saxaphone to pay for a charity drive, and you don't lose the right to challenge a counter-fit toy operation selling knock-off "Thor" action figures for big profit. So sometimes, they might prefer to look the other way, but might not be able to due to how the law works ...

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
If they used the same markup(which they did as the prices are in line with other parted out box sets) they normally would in a non emergency then they are still within the bounds of the law. Since the box set was not even on sale before the pandemic this law would not even apply to it as they did not increase the price beyond their customary rate prior to the pandemic.

The customary rate would be set by the MSRP, since the product was not actually sold, a pre sale is not a sale because there is no history of people actually paying money and receiving said items.

edit Ebay and Amazon do allow presales now.

Tycho wrote:

It really depend on how far there copyright gets them i think on the issue, since someone with a trade account could be selling copy on ebay as well to make ends meet during things like lockdown. At which point i think GW would need to provide them with images for use if they dont allow them to use store images.
This comes mostly from GW having there own stores, and selling direct online in direct competition to other stores they sell to. The laws here can get specific in a lot of places, So it also would depend on where it is enforced.

Honestly, a big part of it also involves a weird quirk of British IP law as well. I can't find the thread anymore, but an actual lawyer broke it down real well in a thread a while back. Going to butcher it because I am NOT a lawyer, but the gist of it was that, essentially, the law requires you to challenge every instance of even potential IP theft (each one you're made aware of that is), or your claim to your IP can be threatened in future instances. This is very different from IP laws in the US where, if it's your IP, it's your IP. You look the other way because some high-school marching band is selling tshirts of Thor playing a saxaphone to pay for a charity drive, and you don't lose the right to challenge a counter-fit toy operation selling knock-off "Thor" action figures for big profit. So sometimes, they might prefer to look the other way, but might not be able to due to how the law works ...

It is very true and has led to companies having to sue or take other legal measures in the UK over things that most companies would let slide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
If they used the same markup(which they did as the prices are in line with other parted out box sets) they normally would in a non emergency then they are still within the bounds of the law. Since the box set was not even on sale before the pandemic this law would not even apply to it as they did not increase the price beyond their customary rate prior to the pandemic.

The customary rate would be set by the MSRP, since the product was not actually sold, a pre sale is not a sale because there is no history of people actually paying money and receiving said items. The other issue is the main platform these pre sales are being sold on they were not allowed to be sold by the ToS (ebay and amazon do not allow presales within their ToS).

not according to CA law, it specifies the rate the seller(the guy parting out the box on eBay) would normally sell it at pre-pandemic, since they did not change their rates for the item after the pandemic as this is a new item the law would most likely not apply. The law says absolutely nothing about MSRP and in fact specifies it applies based on the seller’s pricing.if I sold an item at 100% above msrp pre emergency declaration I would be limited to only being able to increase it by 10% additional after the declaration.

(b) Upon the proclamation of a state of emergency declared by the President of the United States or the Governor, or upon the declaration of a local emergency by an official, board, or other governing body vested with authority to make that declaration in any county, city, or city and county, and for a period of 30 days following that proclamation or declaration, it is unlawful for a person, contractor, business, or other entity to sell or offer to sell any consumer food items or goods, goods or services used for emergency cleanup, emergency supplies, medical supplies, home heating oil, building materials, housing, transportation, freight, and storage services, or gasoline or other motor fuels for a price of more than 10 percent greater than the price charged by that person for those goods or services immediately prior to the proclamation or declaration of emergency. However, a greater price increase is not unlawful if that person can prove that the increase in price was directly attributable to additional costs imposed on it by the supplier of the goods, or directly attributable to additional costs for labor or materials used to provide the services, during the state of emergency or local emergency, and the price is no more than 10 percent greater than the total of the cost to the seller plus the markup customarily applied by the seller for that good or service in the usual course of business immediately prior to the onset of the state of emergency or local emergency.

I think retailers would have a hard time arguing they sell a line of products above MSRP that are pre orders when they historically sell those items at MSRP or 85% of MSRP historically. If said retailers are commonly selling GW products at 200-500% above MSRP they would be fine with the customary arguement, if they do not it just wouldn't hold up in court.

blaktoof wrote:
I think retailers would have a hard time arguing they sell a line of products above MSRP that are pre orders when they historically sell those items at MSRP or 85% of MSRP historically. If said retailers are commonly selling GW products at 200-500% above MSRP they would be fine with the customary arguement, if they do not it just wouldn't hold up in court.

They are well in line with the historical markup for splitting up similar box set in the past so that they make a profit after buying the box set, arguments that they are price gouging would be incredibly unlikely to hold up. Heck the Judiciar I bought was cheaper than I expected from similar models from previous boxes.

I think we are discussing seperate things, I am talking about people selling Indomitus boxes for 400-800 USD listings.

You seem to be discussing people selling individual units from the box for more value than the total box - which is totally kosher because the individual units have no discernible separate value. Everyone knows the items have some "bundle" mark down, but no one knows what it is or how much the individual items cost- as they are not for sell individually.