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So, as it looks like you can advance your infantry, embark on an open topped transport, which remained stationary, your embarked unit now counts as remained stationary, and they can still fire their heavy/assault weapons without penalty ?

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

No, they still have the penalty.

This is beacuse they count as Remained Stationary, but nothing over rides the fact that they advanced.

So they are both "Remained Stationary" and "advanced" and have to take all rules into account for those moves.

In the case of heavy weapons, that means they can not fire as they have advanced.

Do you have a citation that a unit can count as "advanced" and "remained stationary" at the same time ?

 p5freak wrote:
Do you have a citation that a unit can count as "advanced" and "remained stationary" at the same time ?

Yea, the rules...

If they advanced, they advance. These rules are in the BRB under the movement phase.

The rules you posted says that they count as Remained Stationary.

No rules say to count them as if they had not advanced.

Since they advanced, they follow all the restrictions thereof.


Do you have a citation that they somehow stop being a unit that made an advance move?

If not, you have all the restrictions of making an advance move.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Do you have a citation that they somehow stop being a unit that made an advance move?

I already have provided a citation. Here it is again, i marked it red, looks like you missed it :

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Still waiting for your citation.

 p5freak wrote:


Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesn't matter, because it would affect them in any way.

and out pops this gem again.

this would also mean that the same was true in 8th, as they cannot be "affected" by their own move prior to embarking.


The massive back & forth that "affect" statement inevitably brings up aside, I would agree that by the rules the unit counts as stationary if in a stationary vehicle, even if they had to advance to reach it. the whole "affect" thing is irrelevant - the rule states that they count as moving/stationary for all rules purposes if the vehicle moves/stays stationary. "for all rules purposes" trumps most things.

I expect this to be FAQ'd out.

Agreed with p5freak and some bloke. The transport rule ith its "for all rules purposes" clause would override the normal rule for the unit that advanced to become embarked. Then again, the embarked unit can't be affected by any abilities with what the definition of abilities being an issue since 8th edition (as covered in the other thread), so there's already some issues people are having over embarked units.

Hopefully this will get FAQ'd. It would be nice if this changed so that the unit would still count as having advanced. (Then again, it would be nice if things like dakka dakka dakka and overloaded plasma could affect embarked units, but that will probably not be changed to work.)

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Do you have a citation that they somehow stop being a unit that made an advance move?

I already have provided a citation. Here it is again, i marked it red, looks like you missed it :

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Still waiting for your citation.

Depends what "affected" means. It's entirely possible for the unit to have both Advanced and be Stationary. Nothing in the rules seems to say you can only exist in one of those states at any one time (it's just rare to be able to end up in that state due to how the rules work).

Slipspace wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Do you have a citation that they somehow stop being a unit that made an advance move?

I already have provided a citation. Here it is again, i marked it red, looks like you missed it :

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Still waiting for your citation.

Depends what "affected" means. It's entirely possible for the unit to have both Advanced and be Stationary. Nothing in the rules seems to say you can only exist in one of those states at any one time (it's just rare to be able to end up in that state due to how the rules work).

Actually there is something in the rules that you would exist only in one of the states for purposes of the rules. Your statement ignores that "for all rules purposes" the embarked unit is treated as having the same kind of move as the transport that turn. "Affected" doesn't come into it, the rule for the transports states whatever's embarked "for all rules purposes" counts as Remained Stationary if the transport remained stationary. There's no existing in both conditions at once, this rule has the transport's condition overriding any movement condition the embarked unit had. They just normallly assumed that it meant the embarked unit would get one of the first 3 conditions while remaining embarked, and didn't consider a unit that moved or advanced to embark into a transport that remained stationary would let the unit shed their normal movement condition.

 p5freak wrote:
So, as it looks like you can advance your infantry, embark on an open topped transport, which remained stationary, your embarked unit now counts as remained stationary, and they can still fire their heavy/assault weapons without penalty ?

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

Advance, Fall Back and just having moved are not abilities thus the transport rule does not exempt your unit from being affected by them.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, as it looks like you can advance your infantry, embark on an open topped transport, which remained stationary, your embarked unit now counts as remained stationary, and they can still fire their heavy/assault weapons without penalty ?

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

Advance, Fall Back and just having moved are not abilities thus the transport rule does not exempt your unit from being affected by them.

True, advancing isnt an ability, but thats irrelevant. The restriction advancing brings along would affect them in any way, which isnt possible when a unit is embarked.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, as it looks like you can advance your infantry, embark on an open topped transport, which remained stationary, your embarked unit now counts as remained stationary, and they can still fire their heavy/assault weapons without penalty ?

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.[/quote]

Advance, Fall Back and just having moved are not abilities thus the transport rule does not exempt your unit from being affected by them.

I

Irrelevant. The portion I hightlighted in orange is the governing rule in this case, which would exempt the unit from being affected by advancing, if the transport remained stationary.

Yeah, it's stupid, but the rule literally says you count them as doing whatever the transport did in terms of movement, even if they did something different themselves beforehand.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Do you have a citation that they somehow stop being a unit that made an advance move?

I already have provided a citation. Here it is again, i marked it red, looks like you missed it :

EMBARK

Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way
while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems
cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all
rules purposes, units that are embarked within a Transport
model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or
Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of
move that turn.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Still waiting for your citation.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, but it is a good thing they do not advance while they are embarked. They still advanced even if they embark.

I gave my citation already. Do not ignore it.

As Kcalehc pointed out, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked. Advancing is not an ability.

DeathReaper wrote:
Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, but it is a good thing they do not advance while they are embarked. They still advanced even if they embark.

I gave my citation already. Do not ignore it.

As Kcalehc pointed out, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked. Advancing is not an ability.

As I pointed out in earlier posts, your citation doesn't matter. That rule gets overwritten by the "for all rules purposes" sentence in the embarked passengers section counting for movement as whatever the transport did or didn't do for movement that turn. It doesn't matter if the unit advanced when there's a rule saying that for allrule purposes if they embark into a transport that remains stationary that turn, the embarked unit will also count as Remained Stationary.

What's so hard to understand about the words "for all rules purposes", I really have to wonder reading this.

Does it make sense, logically speaking, that units can advance, jump on a transport and fire as if stationary? no.

Is that what the rules tell us? yes.

HIWPI is to use the "fastest" speed achieved by either unit counts for the passengers.

 doctortom wrote:

Spoiler:

DeathReaper wrote:
Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, but it is a good thing they do not advance while they are embarked. They still advanced even if they embark.

I gave my citation already. Do not ignore it.

As Kcalehc pointed out, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked. Advancing is not an ability.

As I pointed out in earlier posts, your citation doesn't matter. That rule gets overwritten by the "for all rules purposes" sentence in the embarked passengers section counting for movement as whatever the transport did or didn't do for movement that turn. It doesn't matter if the unit advanced when there's a rule saying that for allrule purposes if they embark into a transport that remains stationary that turn, the embarked unit will also count as Remained Stationary.

False. the fact that the unit advanced does not get nullified by anything in that rule.

Nothing states that they have no longer advanced.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Spoiler:

DeathReaper wrote:
Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, but it is a good thing they do not advance while they are embarked. They still advanced even if they embark.

I gave my citation already. Do not ignore it.

As Kcalehc pointed out, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked. Advancing is not an ability.

As I pointed out in earlier posts, your citation doesn't matter. That rule gets overwritten by the "for all rules purposes" sentence in the embarked passengers section counting for movement as whatever the transport did or didn't do for movement that turn. It doesn't matter if the unit advanced when there's a rule saying that for allrule purposes if they embark into a transport that remains stationary that turn, the embarked unit will also count as Remained Stationary.

False. the fact that the unit advanced does not get nullified by anything in that rule.

Nothing states that they have no longer advanced.

I am sorry, but your statement is incorrect. If you treat the unit as still having advanced though the transport hasn't moved, then you are not treating the embarked unit "for all rules purposes" as having Remained Stationary, and therefore you are not following the rules. The fact of that statement means exactly what it says, for all rules purposes That is certainly not the "nothing" you claim.

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Spoiler:

DeathReaper wrote:
Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, so the advance doesnt matter, because it would affect them in any way.

Units cannot be affected in any way while they embarked, but it is a good thing they do not advance while they are embarked. They still advanced even if they embark.

I gave my citation already. Do not ignore it.

As Kcalehc pointed out, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked. Advancing is not an ability.

As I pointed out in earlier posts, your citation doesn't matter. That rule gets overwritten by the "for all rules purposes" sentence in the embarked passengers section counting for movement as whatever the transport did or didn't do for movement that turn. It doesn't matter if the unit advanced when there's a rule saying that for allrule purposes if they embark into a transport that remains stationary that turn, the embarked unit will also count as Remained Stationary.

False. the fact that the unit advanced does not get nullified by anything in that rule.

Nothing states that they have no longer advanced.

I am sorry, but your statement is incorrect. If you treat the unit as still having advanced though the transport hasn't moved, then you are not treating the embarked unit "for all rules purposes" as having Remained Stationary, and therefore you are not following the rules. The fact of that statement means exactly what it says, for all rules purposes That is certainly not the "nothing" you claim.

It really is not. Nothing states that they have no longer advanced. Unless you have a citation saying so.

The unit does "count as having made the same kind of move that turn." nothing negates the fact that they advanced either. so you have to take both rules into consideration.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It really is not. Nothing states that they have no longer advanced. Unless you have a citation saying so.

The unit does "count as having made the same kind of move that turn." nothing negates the fact that they advanced either. so you have to take both rules into consideration.

Yes, a rule stating that "for all purposes" the embarked unit coulnts as having moved the same as the transport in overrides its normal movement state. That's how the English language works, the "for all rules purposes" includes the rule that you are trying to claim isn't negated. The statement clearly negates it. Please provide a rules citation saying that the general rules get to override a specific rule that governs how you treat the embarked unit "for all rules purposes" as having moved like the transport it is in.

As I said early in the thread it would make sense to treat the unit as having advanced, but that's not how the RAW works on it now. Maybe they'll fix it in a release date FAQ, maybe not. But, from a RAW standpoint you have no proof that the embarked unit ignores the transport rules for how the embarked unit's movement is treated. "Taking both rules into consideration" is just you making rules up; the transport rules do not state to consider both the movement of the unit and of the transport that round and apply the most severe condition (which would be a simple way to FAQ it). Fine for a house rule, not okay when discussing RAW.

It's not possible to count as having two different movement states in 9th edition. If you count as stationary, you can't also count as advancing. That was a vaguely possible argument in 8th, when advancing was arguably something different from moving. It isn't possible to argue it in 9th, where advancing is one type of movement and it isn't possible to count as doing more than one.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not possible to count as having two different movement states in 9th edition. If you count as stationary, you can't also count as advancing. That was a vaguely possible argument in 8th, when advancing was arguably something different from moving. It isn't possible to argue it in 9th, where advancing is one type of movement and it isn't possible to count as doing more than one.

good thing this is not the scenario we are talking about.

You only count as whatever the transport did.

You do not count as advancing, you have actually advanced. No count as needed.

 doctortom wrote:
Yes, a rule stating that "for all purposes" the embarked unit coulnts as having moved the same as the transport in overrides its normal movement state.

Citation needed, because there is nothing that says this overrides your move.

 DeathReaper wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not possible to count as having two different movement states in 9th edition. If you count as stationary, you can't also count as advancing. That was a vaguely possible argument in 8th, when advancing was arguably something different from moving. It isn't possible to argue it in 9th, where advancing is one type of movement and it isn't possible to count as doing more than one.

good thing this is not the scenario we are talking about.

You only count as whatever the transport did.

You do not count as advancing, you have actually advanced. No count as needed.

Wrong. You count as whatever the transport did, whether you have actually advanced or not. Follow the rules. Don't ignore the rules for transports. The scenario is that no matter what you actually did for movement, "for all rules purposes" you ccount as having moved like the transport you're embarked in. So, if the transport Remained Stationary, the embarked unit counts as having Remained Stationary for rules that look at how the unit moved that turn. Not "counts as remained stationary but actually advanced, so there's shooting penalties". No, it only counts as having Remained Stationary. Your "actually advanced" gets overridden by the Transport rules.

You are not making any sense doctortom.

You count as whatever the transport did, but nothing says you have not also advanced.

The unit did advance, and they also count as whatever the transport did.

"for all rules purposes" you count as having moved like the transport you're embarked in.

You also actually advanced and nothing takes that status away either. You have not cited anything that takes away the fact that they actually did advance.

They advanced. They also count as having moved like the transport they embarked in.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You are not making any sense doctortom.

You count as whatever the transport did, but nothing says you have not also advanced.

The unit did advance, and they also count as whatever the transport did.

Just to clear we understand you correctly, DeathReaper. The Space Marine Stratagem Steady Advance that allows an Adeptus Astartes Infantry unit, like a unit of Intercessors, to be treated as as if it remained stationary for the purposes of the Bolter Drill ability has no effect on the number of shoots the unit gets if the unit actually moved?

I ask you because if the unit made a normal move and being treated as if it remained stationary doesn't override the effect of it making normal move, it doesn't get double shots beyond half range.

 doctortom wrote:
That rule is used instead of you having advanced.

Citation needed. because you have yet to prove this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
That rule is used instead of you having advanced.

Citation needed. because you have yet to prove this.

"for all rules purposes" the unit is stationary. Just because you don't think this applies to all rules purposes doesn't mean citation wasn't provided multiple times.

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
That rule is used instead of you having advanced.

Citation needed. because you have yet to prove this.

"for all rules purposes" the unit is stationary. Just because you don't think this applies to all rules purposes doesn't mean citation wasn't provided multiple times.

There has been no citation that says the advance is negated.

They count as having made the same kind of move that turn For all rules purposes. They have also made an advance move.

So they are stationary and have advanced.


The context of the rule if for units that started the turn embarked anyway, so it really doesnt apply to a unit that embarked on that turn.

but the statement "for all rules purposes" means that, whenever you have to consult the rules to determine if they can shoot, you would consult the "remain stationary" part of the rules to determine the result, for all rules purposes.

Does this apply to all other abilities which allow a unit to count as stationary despite moving or advancing? As alextroy asked;

The Space Marine Stratagem Steady Advance that allows an Adeptus Astartes Infantry unit, like a unit of Intercessors, to be treated as as if it remained stationary for the purposes of the Bolter Drill ability has no effect on the number of shots the unit gets if the unit actually moved?

I ask you because if the unit made a normal move and being treated as if it remained stationary doesn't override the effect of it making normal move, it doesn't get double shots beyond half range.

Same principle. your thoughts, DeathReaper?