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9th edition rulebook: "Cannot gain ore refund more than 1 CP" per battle round"

Player of twilight: See image below

The fact that the exceptions to the tactical restraints rule from 8th edition aren't listed down in the 9th edition rulebook doesn't mean that the codex rules still take precedence over the general rulebook's.

I'm assuming that the same applies to feeder tendrils, moment shackle, seven-fold chant - although I'm not familiar with these strats / abilities -.

As for Agents of Vect, the maximum number of CPs the player whose tactic was vected can regain is 1 (on an AoV roll of 2+ to 5+ and assuming he hasn't been refunded any in that battle round). I reckon this may be FAQ'ed...

Yes, this has been known for a while. Vect and Player of the Twilight are "broken" in the sense they don't do what they did in 8th, but they work just fine in 9th, just differently.

I don't get you. How does PoT differ in 8th and 9th? It works exactly the same. You were able to gain more than 1CP per battle round thanks to this warlord trait and you still are.

You cannot gain or refund more than 1cp per battleround. This made sisters of battle stratagem also useless. Warlord dies, spend 1cp, gain d3 but as you are capped at 1 you are +-0

Difference is above exception isn't in rulebook. Is it in faq? If not no luck.

Yes, that's the general rule in the rulebook but the codex says otherwise.

I'll give you an example, you overwatch on 6's normally, but dire avengers overwatch on 5's because they have a special rule in their codex. Same goes here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If what I'm defending weren't correct, GW would have errata'd all those stratagems. Alternatively, they could have released a note explaining how all these strats and warlord traits work now. But they didn't do either.

eparedes0785 wrote:
I don't get you. How does PoT differ in 8th and 9th? It works exactly the same. You were able to gain more than 1CP per battle round thanks to this warlord trait and you still are.

PoT had an exception in 8th to the 1 per battle round rule. In 9th it doesn't.

So Dire Avengers overwatch on 6's then?

And could you also clarify when the general rules take precedence over the codex and viceversa?

What I am trying to say is that you are doing precisely the opposite of what your signature says, BCB (interpreting the rules)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not certain that the rule is to be played how I am saying... but neither can you. And all the abilities and strats I have mentioned definitely work how I have explained RAW. Whether that's the intention, I don't know. An FAQ would help

tactical restraint and the section on "gaining and refunding command points" are two separate rules. So even if the tractical restraint rule is still valid. the second rule outlined in the "gaining and refunding command points" section is still valid.

An exception to tactical restraints is not an exception to "gaining and refunding command points"

Leave tactical restraint out of the equation. It's gone and so have the exceptions to the rule. We have a new rule that says..."max 1CP gained per round using strats, warlord traits, etc."

And then a bunch of strats and warlord traits that say otherwise in the codex.

Codex rules are exceptions to the general rules.

eparedes0785 wrote:
Leave tactical restraint out of the equation. It's gone and so have the exceptions to the rule. We have a new rule that says..."max 1CP gained per round using strats, warlord traits, etc."

And then a bunch of strats and warlord traits that say otherwise in the codex.

Codex rules are exceptions to the general rules.

by this logic the section on "gaining and refunding CP" means nothing because the rules on the strats and abilities say "whenever X gain Y CP" so , by your logic, that section literally means nothing XD. So no, they included that section to apply a restriction not for your codex (and every other codex) to completely ignore it .

It means that you can't gain more than one CP per battle round using warlord traits such as labyrinthine cunning for instance. It also means that I can't keep getting CPs refunded in a battle round after having been refunded any CPs using PoT. It also means that you can't stack a warlord trait of this type with a strat of this kind too.

eparedes0785 wrote:
Leave tactical restraint out of the equation. It's gone and so have the exceptions to the rule. We have a new rule that says..."max 1CP gained per round using strats, warlord traits, etc."

And then a bunch of strats and warlord traits that say otherwise in the codex.

Codex rules are exceptions to the general rules.

The 'Gaining and Refunding Command Points' rule on page 245 of the Core Rulebook is worded so as to take precedence over those stratagems and rules which would refund command points.

Ghaz. How so?

eparedes0785 wrote:
Ghaz. How so?

It states... that you can gain or lose CP's through use of stratagems, etc...... and then the next sentence says... you can only gain 1 cp per battle round through the use of such rules (refers to previous sentence). I missed it on my first read through.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

eparedes0785 wrote:
Ghaz. How so?

It states... that you can gain or lose CP's through use of stratagems, etc...... and then the next sentence says... you can only gain 1 cp per battle round through the use of such rules (refers to previous sentence). I missed it on my first read through.

It says gain or refund... not lose. And player of the twilight, feeder tendrils, etc. say otherwise... I revert back to the previous example I gave where I mentioned the dire avengers and how they overwatch on 5's

I'm still not clear... it may be that I'm silly

eparedes0785 wrote:
Ghaz. How so?

It's right there in the rule...

There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used “before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round; can never be refunded.

The highlighted is what gives it precedence over Stratagems and other rules which would refund Command Points. It is esessentially the same as the phrase "... irrespective of the firing model’ Ballistic Skill or any hit roll modifiers..." in the Overwatch rule and would require a rule to specifically state that it overrides it.

 Ghaz wrote:

eparedes0785 wrote:
Ghaz. How so?

It's right there in the rule...

There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used “before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round; can never be refunded.

The highlighted is what gives it precedence over Stratagems and other rules which would refund Command Points. It is esessentially the same as the phrase "... irrespective of the firing model’ Ballistic Skill or any hit roll modifiers..." in the Overwatch rule and would require a rule to specifically state that it overrides it.

I find your explanation quite convincing (very good example used). Thank you. I'm with you now.

I gotta say in my defense that I am not a native speaker... hehe

Yeah, n obody can fault you for not correctly reading such an asinine, unintuitive rule.

It's ALMOST like it wouldn't be that hard to make the rule "can only be triggered once per turn" and provide an exception to rules that refund CP to your opponent, so as not to unintentionally buff AoV/PGM stratagems.

Buuuuuuuut most playtested edition ever.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, n obody can fault you for not correctly reading such an asinine, unintuitive rule.

It's ALMOST like it wouldn't be that hard to make the rule "can only be triggered once per turn" and provide an exception to rules that refund CP to your opponent, so as not to unintentionally buff AoV/PGM stratagems.

Buuuuuuuut most playtested edition ever.

And how would that wording limit the Player of Twilight stratagem whose wording would refund more than one Command Point? Or multiple rules which could each refund Command Points?

GW does need to errata PoT if they want it to grant more than 1 CP.

However, I will refer you to this thread regarding gaining CP from Stratagems.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789978.page

In my reading, stratagems are not impacted by the limitation on CP per Battle Round. It would be really helpful if GW included a clarification in the upcoming main rule FAQ.

They are probably going to update those abilities like they did with Trajann's Moment Shackle ability.

They made it so that Moment shackle just reduces the cost of the next strat to 0. I expect a few other abilities will do something similar.