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Ice_can wrote:
To all the people complained about FW pay to win etc etc.

A few facts for you GW main studio (yes the people who broke the game with, Ynarri, and Impossible to hit Eldar and the crown jewel of Marines 2.0) have been responsible for all the 40k rules even for FW models since 2018.

I know that. But what Warhammer 40k rules have been published since 2018? Basically the Custodes stuff, the Maelific Lords errata and that's it.

99.99% of all Warhammer 40K FW rules currently in play pre-date that "take over".

And yes, the fact that giving the FW rules to the guys who wrote the rules for "Ynnari & Space Marines 2.0" is almost certainly an immeasurable improvement over the (still) current FW rules shows how mind-numbingly absurd those FW indexes are.

If FW was "only" Ynnari/Marine 2.0 levels of broken, we'd be in a much, much better place.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
To all the people complained about FW pay to win etc etc.

A few facts for you GW main studio (yes the people who broke the game with, Ynarri, and Impossible to hit Eldar and the crown jewel of Marines 2.0) have been responsible for all the 40k rules even for FW models since 2018.

I know that. But what Warhammer 40k rules have been published since 2018? Basically the Custodes stuff, the Maelific Lords errata and that's it.

99.99% of all Warhammer 40K FW rules currently in play pre-date that "take over".

And yes, the fact that giving the FW rules to the guys who wrote the rules for "Ynnari & Space Marines 2.0" is almost certainly an immeasurable improvement over the (still) current FW rules shows how mind-numbingly absurd those FW indexes are.

If FW was "only" Ynnari/Marine 2.0 levels of broken, we'd be in a much, much better place.

Did you really just go there?

You realise that, before dex 2.0 from gw the contemptor regardless of variety was just considered, meh to okay? right?

You also realise that the malefic lord was less an issue and that there is a 1:1 improved version in the game now for the old price , right?

Also conveniently ignoring ALL ca points changes.

Just, stop. It shows that you don't have experience with these units or rules.

If people weren't running Contemptors pre Marine 2.0, it's because they were running even more absurd FW dreads like Deredeos or Leviathans and using the CSM ruleset instead of the Marine one, because it was stronger.

Doesn't make the FW dreads less absurd and only make you look more foolish for claiming they weren't around in abundance since the earliest days of the edition.

Hell, the very first WHW Heat right after the release of 8th was won by (actual loyalist, pre Chaos Marines getting a Codex) Raven Guard FW Contemptor spam in the late summer of 2017.

They have been a way to buy yourself a tournament win if you wanna spend the money ever since.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
If people weren't running Contemptors pre Marine 2.0, it's because they were running even more absurd FW dreads like Deredeos or Leviathans and using the CSM ruleset instead of the Marine one, because it was stronger.

Doesn't make the FW dreads less absurd and only make you look more foolish for claiming they weren't around in abundance since the earliest days of the edition.

Hell, the very first WHW Heat right after the release of 8th was won by (actual loyalist, pre Chaos Marines getting a Codex) Raven Guard Contemptor spam in the late summer of 2017.

They have been a way to buy yourself a tournament win if you wanna spend the money ever since.

PFT, the csm leviathan is worse then the SM one even before sm 2.0 just fyi.

Same with the contemptor.

But you were allways an "objective " person in regards to FW weren't you.

But just as you again are proven wrong you double down , again.

Newsflash: It don't matter who writes rules in GW overall, because they are gak quality regardless 90% of the time, if you were indeed in favour of balance you'd be pissed for the fact what the new 9th editions pts value are OVERALL. And not hark on a single unit, because who the feth cares about a single unit for a single army that is regardless overperforming, which looks at the virtual clone +1 for other factions units and states that they don't work, whilest the other faction has to make do with an clearly inferior unit.

No, the relic contemptor point drop is just a little drop in an ocean of reasons to start questioning GW's balance and rules , not to mention their modus operandi of selling them.

And so long they can release literally units like eradicators and a good lot of people decide that they don't care that these exist at such a state, or force people to rebuy their dex after 1 year and 1 month, or ignore the fact that whole armies more or less have vanished overnight from competitve play not to mention casual through FAQ's and CA's (GSC says hello) . so long gw won't change and wont even start adressing balance issues.
the new gw is the old gw with a PR department. there have been 60+ paid relases for rules alone for 8th edition. GW has lost oversight regardless, and is perfectly willing to just shove stuff out the frontdoor, hence SW pre release FAQ and supplements. Hence the initial release of 8th indexes with typos and missing keywords.

Sure. New GW is the old GW and that's way FW is still blatantly pay-to-win and will not change.

People like you desperately trying to white knight they resin-bought tournament points is cute. You played the game and parted from your money to get an edge over better skilled players. I am not excusing GW of offering that option, but neither should you delude yourself into why GW does it that way: because suckers will pay the FW premium to toast opponents with the more "pedestrian" plastic models at the local tournament. That's how that symbiotic relationship works.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sure. New GW is the old GW and that's way FW is still blatantly pay-to-win and will not change.

People like you desperately trying to white knight they resin-bought tournament points is cute. You played the game and parted from your money to get an edge over better skilled players. I am not excusing GW of offering that option, but neither should you delude yourself into why GW does it that way: because suckers will pay the FW premium to toast opponents with the more "pedestrian" plastic models at the local tournament. That's how that symbiotic relationship works.

Dude, lol.
FW stuff isn't nearly half as broken as regular GW.
You say contemptor i point to whole subfactions.
You point to Decimator, i to obliterator and whole subfaction traits again.
You point to Leviathan, i point to the smashcaptain.
You point to any FW flyer in existance, i point to DE / Eldar flyers.
Knights, better bet it was a castelan of GW's making.
CP setup so that everyone and their mother could run loyal 32, also Gw's making.

It literally has nothing to do with what material the models are made off, GW' can't balance. And doesn't want to.

Also nice personal attack btw.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sure. New GW is the old GW and that's way FW is still blatantly pay-to-win and will not change.

People like you desperately trying to white knight they resin-bought tournament points is cute. You played the game and parted from your money to get an edge over better skilled players. I am not excusing GW of offering that option, but neither should you delude yourself into why GW does it that way: because suckers will pay the FW premium to toast opponents with the more "pedestrian" plastic models at the local tournament. That's how that symbiotic relationship works.

Dude, lol.
FW stuff isn't nearly half as broken as regular GW.
You say contemptor i point to whole subfactions.
You point to Decimator, i to obliterator and whole subfaction traits again.
You point to Leviathan, i point to the smashcaptain.
You point to any FW flyer in existance, i point to DE / Eldar flyers.
Knights, better bet it was a castelan of GW's making.
CP setup so that everyone and their mother could run loyal 32, also Gw's making.

It literally has nothing to do with what material the models are made off, GW' can't balance. And doesn't want to.

Also nice personal attack btw.

With you on this one, for every FW unit in a winning tourney list there's probably half a dozen that haven't even seen the table in 2 editions. The biggest outliers have always been GW's rules, even the much maligned unkillable leviathan- not forgeworlds problem, that models rules didn't change at all, it was the GW teams stacking rules that enabled it.

Your logic doesn't work.

If the mere existence of a few underpowered FW units somehow excuses their ridiculous pay-to-win nonesense, then the same applies to GW and all the Castellan, Ynnari, whatever stuff can be excused because Mutilators and Necron Monoliths exists.

That's not how it works.

Everytime I read an exchange like this I look at the FW units for IG and think "pay to win? What?"
None of them really stick out as broken. The Macharius Vulcan is the only one that comes to mind as maybe stronger in firepower than its plastic cousin the Stormlord, but lacks wounds and firedeck for not that much of a different price.

I might be wrong but "broken FW" might more be "broken FW loyalist marines" if at all

How many FW units have seen tournament play that weren't op though? I'd wager the number is rather low.

Both the terrible and OP units are a clear sign of low quality rules writing - even compared to the GW stuff. IMHO it wouldn't be too bad if FW disappeared completely for 40k.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Everytime I read an exchange like this I look at the FW units for IG and think "pay to win? What?"
None of them really stick out as broken. The Macharius Vulcan is the only one that comes to mind as maybe stronger in firepower than its plastic cousin the Stormlord, but lacks wounds and firedeck for not that much of a different price.

I might be wrong but "broken FW" might more be "broken FW loyalist marines" if at all

Everytime I read an exchange like this I look at 2017 Ynnari Harlequins or at a 2018 House Hawkshroud Castellan and think "unbalanced? what?".

None of them really were ever broken either.

@ Jidmah: the whole Death Korps of Krieg? They turn up in tournaments occassionally but are not really OP, are they? Neither are Macharius or Malcadors

Edit: @ sunnyside up: I have to admit that was before my time

I have been tracking the top placements of GTs in all of 8th and have literally not seen a single DKOK army there.

 Jidmah wrote:
I have been tracking the top placements of GTs in all of 8th and have literally not seen a single DKOK army there.

I have been tracking the top placements of GTs in all of 8th and have literally not seen a single mono-Ynnari or mono-House Raven army there either.

DKOK were certainly part of abusive lists before.

Yes no top placements, but have they seen tournaments play? (Serious question, I don't know) Because that was the question, wasn't it?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Yes no top placements, but have they seen tournaments play? (Serious question, I don't know) Because that was the question, wasn't it?

na

FW ends up if ever at tournaments as a single unit type or due to how soup was initially messed up.

Overall, the single most abusive FW combination you could field was due to a gw introduced formation and a Specific FW army subfaction of R&H, built upon fearless FNP 4+ units and arty. Was it more abusive then Taudar though, or 500pts handicap marines? ehh, debatable overall.

DKoK, though, never really. Mostly because why pick the more DKoK version when it allways pays more, when all the options for them are available for regular guard anyways.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Yes no top placements, but have they seen tournaments play? (Serious question, I don't know) Because that was the question, wasn't it?

For the discussion at hand, it's irrelevant whether you show up to a tournament and have no chance of winning or do not show up at all.

 Jidmah wrote:
How many FW units have seen tournament play that weren't op though? I'd wager the number is rather low.

Both the terrible and OP units are a clear sign of low quality rules writing - even compared to the GW stuff. IMHO it wouldn't be too bad if FW disappeared completely for 40k.

one issue though, by the same vein you could argue that all non comp units should get curbed and in cases of some bloated dexes, that are a lot of units.
Heck Grots were for most of their existence such a unit. As were possessed, etc.
the actual number of competitively viable units is extremely low overall for 40k. Chaos is a prade exemple of this, considering that you often need specific subfaction trait combinations and units of a slew of multiple dexes to create high end comp list.
take arhiman supreme in a body of AL with some daemon support as an exemple. that army has how many diffrent units exactly?

DG super bros?

 slave.entity wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
No one's going to mention the battle sanctum? 55 points for a gigantic LoS blocker that walls off your deployment zone and grants light cover, heavy cover, miracle dice, and leadership?

The sheer size of footprint alone makes it worth considering at that price point.

Yeah, it's pretty sexy, especially since you can get your CP back on the Fortification Network detachment. Of course that means you can only take it at Incursion or higher, but that's most matched play games anyway. In some battles on a big enough board, I'd even take two; I have one build that I'm considering which focuses on MD optimization, and two of these really push it over the top.

It's going to get nerfed. The next cheapest fortification is the Aegis Defence Line at 80 points and it's a tiny fraction of the size of the battle sanctum.

That's an indictment of the aegis, not a reason to nerf the sanctum.

The current issue with FW is the same that we have with basically all of the current FW AND GW points - they didn't put any effort into balancing them. All this BS about playtesting this and that is worthless when those testers that have spoken out about it didn't get to provide feedback about those points in time. All it did was tell GW that they fethed up, and they're apparently not willing to admit or even fix that.

The next opportunity will be when they release the army builder, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

nekooni wrote:
The current issue with FW is the same that we have with basically all of the current FW AND GW points - they didn't put any effort into balancing them. All this BS about playtesting this and that is worthless when those testers that have spoken out about it didn't get to provide feedback about those points in time. All it did was tell GW that they fethed up, and they're apparently not willing to admit or even fix that.

The next opportunity will be when they release the army builder, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

considering the quality of the App, we should be happy if it even started.....

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sure. New GW is the old GW and that's way FW is still blatantly pay-to-win and will not change.

People like you desperately trying to white knight they resin-bought tournament points is cute. You played the game and parted from your money to get an edge over better skilled players. I am not excusing GW of offering that option, but neither should you delude yourself into why GW does it that way: because suckers will pay the FW premium to toast opponents with the more "pedestrian" plastic models at the local tournament. That's how that symbiotic relationship works.

Dude, lol.
FW stuff isn't nearly half as broken as regular GW.
You say contemptor i point to whole subfactions.
You point to Decimator, i to obliterator and whole subfaction traits again.
You point to Leviathan, i point to the smashcaptain.
You point to any FW flyer in existance, i point to DE / Eldar flyers.
Knights, better bet it was a castelan of GW's making.
CP setup so that everyone and their mother could run loyal 32, also Gw's making.

It literally has nothing to do with what material the models are made off, GW' can't balance. And doesn't want to.

Also nice personal attack btw.

The issue with forgeworld is factionally way more broken than GW prime is.

Tell me who would win in a game between SM and SoB right now? Hard to call without seeing the lists right?

Now tell me who would win between Forgeworld SM and Forgeworld SoB.

@ Jidmah: I'm honestly confused. You asked which FW units das tournament play that were not OP. I mentioned DKOK. You answer that those so not count since they never placed on top. One might come to the idea that this might be because they were not OP.

What exactly were you asking for then? FW units that were not OP but still part of armies that placed on top?

ERJAK wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sure. New GW is the old GW and that's way FW is still blatantly pay-to-win and will not change.

People like you desperately trying to white knight they resin-bought tournament points is cute. You played the game and parted from your money to get an edge over better skilled players. I am not excusing GW of offering that option, but neither should you delude yourself into why GW does it that way: because suckers will pay the FW premium to toast opponents with the more "pedestrian" plastic models at the local tournament. That's how that symbiotic relationship works.

Dude, lol.
FW stuff isn't nearly half as broken as regular GW.
You say contemptor i point to whole subfactions.
You point to Decimator, i to obliterator and whole subfaction traits again.
You point to Leviathan, i point to the smashcaptain.
You point to any FW flyer in existance, i point to DE / Eldar flyers.
Knights, better bet it was a castelan of GW's making.
CP setup so that everyone and their mother could run loyal 32, also Gw's making.

It literally has nothing to do with what material the models are made off, GW' can't balance. And doesn't want to.

Also nice personal attack btw.

The issue with forgeworld is factionally way more broken than GW prime is.

Tell me who would win in a game between SM and SoB right now? Hard to call without seeing the lists right?

Now tell me who would win between Forgeworld SM and Forgeworld SoB.

SM and SM by virtue of there not beeing any SoB FW.
Options are just that, options. How much do you not see off SM, i rekon it's a higher rate of units that get never picked in that dex then SoB.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
How many FW units have seen tournament play that weren't op though? I'd wager the number is rather low.

Both the terrible and OP units are a clear sign of low quality rules writing - even compared to the GW stuff. IMHO it wouldn't be too bad if FW disappeared completely for 40k.

one issue though, by the same vein you could argue that all non comp units should get curbed and in cases of some bloated dexes, that are a lot of units.
Heck Grots were for most of their existence such a unit. As were possessed, etc.
the actual number of competitively viable units is extremely low overall for 40k. Chaos is a prade exemple of this, considering that you often need specific subfaction trait combinations and units of a slew of multiple dexes to create high end comp list.
take arhiman supreme in a body of AL with some daemon support as an exemple. that army has how many diffrent units exactly?

DG super bros?

I still see no reason why there should be a second shop within GW that releases models at higher prices and with inferior rules that are not of a notably higher quality than the main line - quite the opposite. Even rules wise, many FW units are in direct competition with comparable plastic kits, making one or the other obsolete.

FW is a relic from times when GW themselves couldn't make models as big or detailed as resin and when not every unit in the codices had official models. These times are over, 3D printing and a myriad of third party vendors have taken the niche that FW tried to fill, and frankly do a much better job at it.

Things like leviathans, grot tanks, the custodes units, DKOK or R&H are clearly popular enough to just be made available through GW's regular store and books.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Your logic doesn't work.

If the mere existence of a few underpowered FW units somehow excuses their ridiculous pay-to-win nonesense, then the same applies to GW and all the Castellan, Ynnari, whatever stuff can be excused because Mutilators and Necron Monoliths exists.

That's not how it works.

It's exactly how it works, you're singling out FW as "pay to win" and targeting people who buy and use it without applying the same standard to non-fw entries who also "pay to win" but just with plastic.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Jidmah: I'm honestly confused. You asked which FW units das tournament play that were not OP. I mentioned DKOK. You answer that those so not count since they never placed on top. One might come to the idea that this might be because they were not OP.

What exactly were you asking for then? FW units that were not OP but still part of armies that placed on top?

Not necessarily on top, but at least more wins than losses should be a thing. The years of following tactical discussions on dakka and other communities, people only ever care for FW out of two reasons:
1) They have bought/build a model they like and want to make it work.
2) Rules have borked one of the units and it's over the curve. Most people exploiting these loopholes aren't even considering buying FW models to do so.

For example, I have literally never seen someone run or even ask for Mekboss Buzzgob outside of times when he gave ridiculous discounts on stompas or when had a free KFF - both cases being nothing but shoddy rules-writing.

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Your logic doesn't work.

If the mere existence of a few underpowered FW units somehow excuses their ridiculous pay-to-win nonesense, then the same applies to GW and all the Castellan, Ynnari, whatever stuff can be excused because Mutilators and Necron Monoliths exists.

That's not how it works.

It's exactly how it works, you're singling out FW as "pay to win" and targeting people who but and use it without applying the same standard to non-fw entries who also "pay to win" but just with plastic.

Not anymore than the responses are singling out some GW rules like Craftworld Ynnari or the Raven Castellan in an endless CP set-up to create a false balance of non-FW models allegedly having the same problems and thus distracting from the FW-specific problem.

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
How many FW units have seen tournament play that weren't op though? I'd wager the number is rather low.

Both the terrible and OP units are a clear sign of low quality rules writing - even compared to the GW stuff. IMHO it wouldn't be too bad if FW disappeared completely for 40k.

one issue though, by the same vein you could argue that all non comp units should get curbed and in cases of some bloated dexes, that are a lot of units.
Heck Grots were for most of their existence such a unit. As were possessed, etc.
the actual number of competitively viable units is extremely low overall for 40k. Chaos is a prade exemple of this, considering that you often need specific subfaction trait combinations and units of a slew of multiple dexes to create high end comp list.
take arhiman supreme in a body of AL with some daemon support as an exemple. that army has how many diffrent units exactly?

DG super bros?

I still see no reason why there should be a second shop within GW that releases models at higher prices and with inferior rules that are not of a notably higher quality than the main line - quite the opposite. Even rules wise, many FW units are in direct competition with comparable plastic kits, making one or the other obsolete.

FW is a relic from times when GW themselves couldn't make models as big or detailed as resin and when not every unit in the codices had official models. These times are over, 3D printing and a myriad of third party vendors have taken the niche that FW tried to fill, and frankly do a much better job at it.

Things like leviathans, grot tanks, the custodes units, DKOK or R&H are clearly popular enough to just be made available through GW's regular store and books.

Also true, doesn't change the fact that in regards to balance it doesn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Your logic doesn't work.

If the mere existence of a few underpowered FW units somehow excuses their ridiculous pay-to-win nonesense, then the same applies to GW and all the Castellan, Ynnari, whatever stuff can be excused because Mutilators and Necron Monoliths exists.

That's not how it works.

It's exactly how it works, you're singling out FW as "pay to win" and targeting people who but and use it without applying the same standard to non-fw entries who also "pay to win" but just with plastic.

Not anymore than the responses are singling out some GW rules like Craftworld Ynnari or the Raven Castellan in an endless CP set-up to create a false balance of non-FW models allegedly having the same problems and thus distracting from the FW-specific problem.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/hypocrisy

Yeah, FW Indizes were rushed and it was a mismanagement by GW that they never updated them. Some FW models became OP either because GW didn't think of them when designing Codizes or they got unfitting points. Many FW models though were very weak compared to GW counterparts.