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Primaris are to the Marines what the Marines were to the Thunder Warriors.

It's just we never had models of the Thunder Warriors to make armies out of.

yukishiro1 wrote:I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system.

Yeah, because screw anyone who collected Marines from that major Chapter, and then told they couldn't have Primaris because "reasons"!

If you don't want YOUR guys to have it, because they're so hidebound traditionalists? Then don't take any! You're not being forced to.

Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.

You're not being forced to comply. No-one's holding your wallet ransom.

If you don't want them, you don't have to get them. Simple as. But GW made sure that if you liked the look of them, you could get some for yourself - and I think that's the right way to go about things.

The idea that these hide-bound traditionalists who have behaved the same way for 10,000 years would suddenly accept newly created supermen that obsolete the way they have done business for the last ten millenia, presented to them by a deeply suspicious figure like Cawl, beggars belief.

Yeah, because Chapters never change and undergo metamorphoses under pressure, such as many of the First Founding Chapters being utterly decimated and torn to pieces, requiring immediate aid and assistance, as well as Emperor-blessed reinforcements and gifts from a goddamn Primarch.

Also, just to correct you as well, not all Chapters *did* completely adopt Primaris entirely into their command structure from the start. The Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels were notably hesitant to adopt Primaris Marines into their command structures and Chapter (have you read about why Azrael felt forced to accept Primaris Marines? It's an interesting story).

Plus, it's easy to say "they've always done it this way for 10,000 years!", but firstly, not all Chapters have been around for 10,000 years, secondly, aside from Dreadnoughts, the oldest Marines are pushing on only a tenth of that time, and thirdly, they didn't have access to Primaris technology.

This conversation has happened a lot, but here is what we've gleaned from the community, GW market-speak, and from what little information we've gotten from the 8th Ed design interviews:

People complained for years about the scale problem with marines. Marines were supposed to be nine foot tall superhumans, but the Astra Militarum models towered over them. GW pushed the scale of the oldMarine line as far as they could go until they hit a definite blocker in the MKVIII errant armor, in which the marines look like they are wearing lifts.

Add to this the other long-running player complaint: Marines were supposed to be humanity's elite, but they had been used as the baseline for all the other faction's troop choice since RT. This meant the army didn't feel elite at all - marines with their single wound died just as easily as an Ork or Tau.

Then came the SKU creep problem. It was hard to create anything new for Space Marines since the design space was almost entirely used up - anything 'new' had a bad habit of just being a minor variant of something already existing. It was becoming hard to sell Space Marine models - and whether you like it or not, selling Space Marines drives a lot of the profit that keeps WH40k in business.

The final element was the modeling problem. Earlier editions of 40k had been more RPG-like in nature and GW had, edition by edition, allowed people to equip Space Marines with almost every weapon they ever produced. The equipment list for the SM Captain was huge and it was both a headache to game balance as well as a source of complaints for new players, who had to dig into the secondary market to get esoteric weapons that weren't in the current kit.

GW decided to tackle all this problems in a way that would also make them money. It would release 'true scale' marines, that would solve the scaling problem and also update the look and feel for newer players who weren't even alive during the RT era. It would release them as a separate line of data sheets - thus removing the equipment creep problem and letting them adjust the core stat line of 1W that kept biting them in the butt. I would also use this opportunity to essentially replace the entire SM line with new models that shared this newer, more elite view of the SPace Marine faction - both fixing thier rule problem and also convincing that guy who stopped buying new Blood Angels models in 1997 to actually pick up some GW product again. Finally, it lets them restrict the new models in their equipment. You can't Thunder Hammer or Melta pistol every officer any more - Primaris marines come with very few options that don't require a whole separate data sheet. It even drops the idea of a single guy carrying a heavy weapon, which most other factions still have.

GW probably felt great until someone pointed out that putting down your AOBR marines next to your Primaris marines looked silly - the new marines were twice the size of the old plastic ones. They rather controversially fixed this by adding a bunch of new Lore to support the idea of a new kind of Space Marine. This triggered a lot of the older players, who had already memorized a crap ton of what is now 'oldmarine' or 'firstborn' lore.

All in all, it was a needed change that wasn't going to make anyone happy - but there aer some elements that GW could have done better. Especially in the Lore department, where they are now preparing to speed past the sillier bits in the hope that players will forget them.

GW probably felt great until someone pointed out that putting down your AOBR marines next to your Primaris marines looked silly - the new marines were twice the size of the old plastic ones. They rather controversially fixed this by adding a bunch of new Lore to support the idea of a new kind of Space Marine. This triggered a lot of the older players, who had already memorized a crap ton of what is now 'oldmarine' or 'firstborn' lore.

Funny how this ignores the Deathwatch Veteran kit, the Watch-Captain, the revamped CSMs that came later, etc etc etc.

My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.

As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.

As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.

Yeah, that's totally fair! There's no need to by models you don't want, just proxy to the closest equivalent if needed!

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Marine players wanted to be involved in the parade of new models and new, fun units? Design wanted to design more Space Marine stuff since it is "iconic" and exciting for them? Well... you end up with Primaris. Unfortunately, it has turned into a 3 year roll out of WAY too much stuff and pretty much total abandonment of all the other factions in favor of the smurfs.

Immediate thought there is to give the Supplement treatment (or full 'dex treatment, whichever) to the remaining FF Chapters instead of the Primaris mess - except rather than just give them one SC (in terms of new models), actually put some effort into them.so that they get a closer degree of distinction to that of the BA/DA - maybe not the whole SW treatment, but 2-4 special units, 1-2 more SC, and make sure each of them has their specific CM as a model. Possibly some of the options people have talked about going missing, such as Terminator armour for IH sergeants (when was that actually a thing, btw?)

We could've seen plastic Breacher squads for the IF, a full-SM sniper unit for the RG (as opposed to Scout snipers), a pyro unit of some form for the Salamanders (and/or their Firedrakes) - I'm less clear on initial concepts for the Scars and IH (beyond the Termie Sergeant and an Iron Father for the IH), but I'm less familiar with their lore and archetypes.

Equally, you can then consider which of the units from the main 'dex don't fit the Chapters, and limit (or remove) those accordingly.

I think that would've given enough content for an edition. Still bring Guilliman back at the end of seventh, and if you decide you still want to press ahead with the Primaris mess, you've got the whole of an edition to start leaving tidbits of background to lead into their introduction, rather than having them appear out of nowhere at the dawn of eighth.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.

As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.

No you wouldn't.

You literally just said that you're "using your dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalent".
There's nothing stopping you from getting any of the "a lot of new pieces that look nice" right now. There's very little overlap in terms of roles and the like as well.

You just don't want to buy anything. And that's fine. But don't pretend otherwise.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system.

Yeah, because screw anyone who collected Marines from that major Chapter, and then told they couldn't have Primaris because "reasons"!

If you don't want YOUR guys to have it, because they're so hidebound traditionalists? Then don't take any! You're not being forced to.

Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.

You're not being forced to comply. No-one's holding your wallet ransom.

If you don't want them, you don't have to get them. Simple as. But GW made sure that if you liked the look of them, you could get some for yourself - and I think that's the right way to go about things.

The right way from an economic standpoint, obviously. But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

The marines have changed quite often since the Rogue Trader days.

That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.

While we still can, we can make lemonade from lemons. For example, I came up with a small chapter based on jungle teams and is made up exclusively from scouts and reavers. They do look odd at different heights but they complement each other very well, with scouts providing an array of support weapons that allow reavers to focus on being their usual happy-go-psycho selves.

 Dysartes wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Marine players wanted to be involved in the parade of new models and new, fun units? Design wanted to design more Space Marine stuff since it is "iconic" and exciting for them? Well... you end up with Primaris. Unfortunately, it has turned into a 3 year roll out of WAY too much stuff and pretty much total abandonment of all the other factions in favor of the smurfs.

Immediate thought there is to give the Supplement treatment (or full 'dex treatment, whichever) to the remaining FF Chapters instead of the Primaris mess - except rather than just give them one SC (in terms of new models), actually put some effort into them.so that they get a closer degree of distinction to that of the BA/DA - maybe not the whole SW treatment, but 2-4 special units, 1-2 more SC, and make sure each of them has their specific CM as a model. Possibly some of the options people have talked about going missing, such as Terminator armour for IH sergeants (when was that actually a thing, btw?)

The doctrine era book suggested using "Scions of Mars", IIRC, which allowed for it. I think. I don't own that book anymore.

We could've seen plastic Breacher squads for the IF, a full-SM sniper unit for the RG (as opposed to Scout snipers), a pyro unit of some form for the Salamanders (and/or their Firedrakes) - I'm less clear on initial concepts for the Scars and IH (beyond the Termie Sergeant and an Iron Father for the IH), but I'm less familiar with their lore and archetypes.

Equally, you can then consider which of the units from the main 'dex don't fit the Chapters, and limit (or remove) those accordingly.

I think that would've given enough content for an edition. Still bring Guilliman back at the end of seventh, and if you decide you still want to press ahead with the Primaris mess, you've got the whole of an edition to start leaving tidbits of background to lead into their introduction, rather than having them appear out of nowhere at the dawn of eighth.

A big thing to consider is that the biggest factor of adding Primaris? It's a way for them to have standardized units across all the Marine stuff in one big go. Any unique or special items can be added via Chapter upgrade stuff sold separately so they can cut down on SKUs in a meaningful way or start pulling some items back to Direct Only.

Another thing to consider is that having everything standardized but then allowing for certain groups to get a bonus while using them? That lets you control balance a bit more as well.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system.

Yeah, because screw anyone who collected Marines from that major Chapter, and then told they couldn't have Primaris because "reasons"!

If you don't want YOUR guys to have it, because they're so hidebound traditionalists? Then don't take any! You're not being forced to.

Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.

You're not being forced to comply. No-one's holding your wallet ransom.

If you don't want them, you don't have to get them. Simple as. But GW made sure that if you liked the look of them, you could get some for yourself - and I think that's the right way to go about things.

The right way from an economic standpoint, obviously. But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

He really did not prove your point.

You're just being stubborn and refusing to listen to something else than memes when it comes to the primaris lore. It makes sense that Cawl knows how to do marines +1. It makes sense that Guilliman saw the threats the imperium was facing and told cawl to launch primaris production. There IS tension between firstborn and primaris in the fluff.

The whole "40k is a about stagnancy" has never been true anyway. and even if it is, its possible to have individuals that see the benefits of progress (Bobby G and Cawl). Put them in charge and yeah. primaris fit perfectly in the lore.

To the OP

Real world economics

the chapter house court case being the primary.

GW has to protect their IP copyright as such they started by changing all the names. imperial guard was to generic so they could not own it, so they changed it to astra militarum.

same with "space marines" VS *primaris and adeptus astartes.

This also opened the door for them to make new iconic minis (that they own the look of) and new models with new rules to go along with them, for an improved sales profile. and it worked.

But not any tension that amounts to anything significant for their economic bottom line.

And no, that nonsense about Guilliman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making is just that: nonsense. It's a transparent retcon to try to give some justification to an economic decision.

Does anybody here - anybody - honestly think they came up with the lore ideas for Primaris first and then decided they were so cool and awesome that it justified replacing the entire Space Marine line? Of course not. This is economics driving the lore, not vice versa.

SamusDrake wrote:
The marines have changed quite often since the Rogue Trader days.

That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.

This is kinda/sorta one of those things that people need to remember.
They're "famous for being able to field the entirety of the First Company in Terminator Suits"...as in the 100 strong Company.
There's more than just 100 people in the Deathwing. You have the various other Masters, Librarians, Chaplains, etc.

It's like "Raven Guard are the jump pack chapter".
No, they're the ambush chapter. It's just a hard concept to put down on the field, since I can't just run up onto the table while you're waiting for me and throw down all my snipers to take out some units, pack them up, and then deploy the Assault Marines/Reivers/whatever to get you afterwards.

They killed them?

yukishiro1 wrote:
But not any tension that amounts to anything significant for their economic bottom line.

And no, that nonsense about Guilliman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making is just that: nonsense. It's a transparent retcon to try to give some justification to an economic decision.

Does anybody here - anybody - honestly think they came up with the lore ideas for Primaris first and then decided they were so cool and awesome that it justified replacing the entire Space Marine line? Of course not. This is economics driving the lore, not vice versa.

So if primaris sold poorly you would be fine with the lore?

Youre just salty because you think primaris means oldmarines are out and that you HAVE to buy primaris and that you can't chose to make a chapter that doesnt allow them

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.

As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.

I mean at this point you have direct analogues for

-Marines
-Devastators with MM, Devastators with PC, Devastators with LC, and upcoming Devastators with HB
-Bikers
-Predator tank
-Land Raider
-Rhino
-Dreadnought
-Tactical Terminator (Fist/Bolter config)
-Knife Scouts
-Bolter Scouts
-Attack Bike
-Sniper Scouts
-Captains, Chaplains, Libbies, Techmarines, etc, etc, etc.

There are definitely a few missing links, assault terminators, assault marines, some weapons that don't have analogues yet, but pretty much anyone I know who owns a classic marine army could pretty much run them as primaris with very minor proxying.

The main reason they don't in my experience is that people enjoy the fact that marine squads had flexible loadouts, they didn't like that Primaris was a pure gunline army (we'll see if the new assault/biker stuff changes that take) and they wanted more assault/mobile stuff.

The most resistant to primaris are people who play their marines as a mobile short range force (min squads with double specials in rhinos/razorbacks) a deep strike force with drop pods, or a mobile force with lots of bikers/assault guys. Pre-Indomitus, primaris were admittedly quite bad at doing all those things.

There's also resistance to losing the 'meta' builds of characters where you give up the mobility options, the deep strike options, and the heavy damage assault options. Basically, mobility almost always makes a character the best option, you almost never will see a situtation where people willingly choose on-foot options for characters when a 12" move or Fly version is available.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
But not any tension that amounts to anything significant for their economic bottom line.

And no, that nonsense about Guilliman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making is just that: nonsense. It's a transparent retcon to try to give some justification to an economic decision.

Does anybody here - anybody - honestly think they came up with the lore ideas for Primaris first and then decided they were so cool and awesome that it justified replacing the entire Space Marine line? Of course not. This is economics driving the lore, not vice versa.

So if primaris sold poorly you would be fine with the lore?

Youre just salty because you think primaris means oldmarines are out and that you HAVE to buy primaris and that you can't chose to make a chapter that doesnt allow them

I don't even play marines. Please stop trying to make everything into a personal attack, it makes discussion pointless. Straw men are also silly. The point isn't whether primaris sold well or not, the point is that the decision to introduce primaris was 100% economic and 0% lore-based. The lore was just cooked up after the fact.

As for why GW did it: Simple.

Power-fantasy factions that are recognizably human ALWAYS sell the best and are the overwhelming choice for new players entering in to any kind of fantasy setting. It uncomplicates a large narrative setting if your character can just be you, but hotter and with a big sword. DnD knows this, Warcraft knows this, GW knows this (and its why one of the biggest differences between AOS and Sigmar is the Sigmarines!)

Space marines were great for that. But not *perfect* - they had some pitfalls for a new player, chief among them is that there had always been many ways you could build your marines in a way that was just...wrong.

Show of hands, who had the el classico GW kit configuration in their first marine kits? I'm talking first tactical squad: Power fist because feth yeah, melta gun because hot damn it's called a MELTA GUN feth yeah, and then a rocket launcher because ROCKET LAUNCHER feth yeah! A devastator squad? Let's make sure these suckers can handle all the threats: Heavy Bolter, Rocket Launcher, Lascannon, Multi-melta! Now we're ready to handle whatever the battlefield throws at us! How could this be bad?

Oh, it's really really really REALLY REALLY bad? And I just spent 80$ on those two kits? And I glued them together before my first game?

This is the primary driver behind primaris marines being mono-loadout, and the primary driver behind many primaris units having a mix of capabilities. All their vehicles come with anti-tank and anti-infantry weaponry. A lot of their units have mostly anti-infantry weapons, but also powerfists, or also a haywire bomb, some way to threaten tanks as well. A lot of others have plasma: The original flexible weapon type. This is so it's much harder for a newbie to build either their kits wrong, or their overall army wrong. They're marines, built to cater to someone who has never played the game before.

And that's the real reason why CSM and SM have such totally different design philosophies: GW knows that Newbie Ned is going to buy space marines, and he's going to want ease of entry, uncomplicated kits, cheaper price point, and the ability to play 2k games with the big boys at the club as quickly as possible. And they know that once newbie ned builds his 2k marine army, THAT'S when he might look into CSM - and at that point, he's going to want hyper-customization. He's going to want them to be HIS GUYS.

CSM, Sisters, Harlequins, Admech, GSC - all these armies were released with the intention that they'd be purchased by experienced hobbyists willing to spend more on their army who want their experience to be more customizable.

the_scotsman wrote:
As for why GW did it: Simple.

Power-fantasy factions that are recognizably human ALWAYS sell the best and are the overwhelming choice for new players entering in to any kind of fantasy setting. It uncomplicates a large narrative setting if your character can just be you, but hotter and with a big sword. DnD knows this, Warcraft knows this, GW knows this (and its why one of the biggest differences between AOS and Sigmar is the Sigmarines!)

My thoughts exactly.

yukishiro1 wrote:But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.

Where GW is concerned? The lore is nearly always secondary - this isn't a Primaris exclusive issue, whatever problem you have with it.

Admech getting winged units? I somehow don't think the lore was the first concern. And you know what? That's okay! The lore doesn't HAVE to be the main reason you made new things. Making new models can be done out of "this is a cool concept", or "this could do with a remake" or more cynically "let's encourage some folks to buy this".

But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?

No, because they don't control your purchasing.

SamusDrake wrote:That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.

Oh, some visuals and aesthetics must be retained, for sure. However, I think that's more of a testament to the design of the Space Marines and Primaris - a Primaris Marine still looks like a Space Marine on the visual level. The backpack is largely the same, the style of plating, the general boxiness of the bolter, the grille-like faceplate, the large curved pauldrons - a newcomer will be able to register that a Primaris Marine and Firstborn in Mark VII are both Space Marines.

I've found that Gravis Armour isn't all too different from Terminator plate, but it's mostly in the helmet and equipment that would define how they look. An "Aggressor" carrying an Assault Bolter and a power fist, with a terminator's helmet, isn't a bad stand-in for a standard Terminator.

Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.

The idea that these hide-bound traditionalists who have behaved the same way for 10,000 years would suddenly accept newly created supermen that obsolete the way they have done business for the last ten millenia, presented to them by a deeply suspicious figure like Cawl, beggars belief.

If you read the novels, they really haven't just said "Oh cool!" and just gone along with it. There are a ton of examples where they are HIGHLY suspicious and untrusting, but the issue is, as it stands, they can either at least APPEAR to accept them, OR have an open rebellion.

The main Primaris character in BOTH Dark Imperium novels spends multiple pages whinging about not being accepted properly and always be sort of shunned from the chapter proper.

In another more recent novel (blanking on the name ATM) a UM chaplain is assigned a Intercessor squad when he and his fellow marines are finally called to meet up with a Torch Bearer fleet. He hasn't even heard of the Primaris yet so he's fairly off-put by the situation. They end up fighting Iron Warriors later on. At one point there's a downed IW marine and the Chaplain and Intercessors are standing over him. The IW looks at the Intercessors, then back at the Chaplain and starts to laugh and say "You are the new Thunder Warriors" or something like that, but the Chaplain executes him before he can finish the thought. The Intercessors ask what that was about and the Chaplain refuses to tell them. He spends most of the rest of the book completely unsettled by them.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the chapters that frequently works with/for the Inquisition has also flat out refused Primaris marines in the fluff but now I'm blanking on the specifics. It's been a long day.

All of that said, they went an awfully long way to shoehorn the new models. I agree it wasn't handled well, just pointing out that it's not necessarily true that the chapters are all just auto-accepting of the change ...

AFAIK firstborn marines as still a viable army to field. I can imagine GW keeping them around for some time still. And I for one am still collecting firstborn marines, actually I still have many, many kits I need to buy before they become OOP.

Then, when I've finished building my dream army from my teenage years, I can start collecting Primaris some more. I already have some, and was thinking I might use them for "truescaling" my firstborn but nah, too many pieces would be lost. I love the heresy era armor marks too much I guess. I'll just get more Primaris gradually and maybe even start a whole new army with them instead..

I think firstborn will get a separate codex before getting legended. I can totally see firstborns as a separate faction from Primaris Astartes altogether, instead of getting squatted. I can even see the future of the Inperium breaking down into anarchy, where Primaris chapters will fight Firstborns while Chaos eats popcorn watching the fight unfold on a holonet channel on Slaaneshmas

At the very least, there will be several editions worth of 40K to play and the whole Horus Heresy game for yall intent on sticking to firstborn only. I will have both firstborn and Primaris, thanks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.

Where GW is concerned? The lore is nearly always secondary - this isn't a Primaris exclusive issue, whatever problem you have with it.

Admech getting winged units? I somehow don't think the lore was the first concern. And you know what? That's okay! The lore doesn't HAVE to be the main reason you made new things. Making new models can be done out of "this is a cool concept", or "this could do with a remake" or more cynically "let's encourage some folks to buy this".

But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?

No, because they don't control your purchasing.

SamusDrake wrote:That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.

Oh, some visuals and aesthetics must be retained, for sure. However, I think that's more of a testament to the design of the Space Marines and Primaris - a Primaris Marine still looks like a Space Marine on the visual level. The backpack is largely the same, the style of plating, the general boxiness of the bolter, the grille-like faceplate, the large curved pauldrons - a newcomer will be able to register that a Primaris Marine and Firstborn in Mark VII are both Space Marines.

I've found that Gravis Armour isn't all too different from Terminator plate, but it's mostly in the helmet and equipment that would define how they look. An "Aggressor" carrying an Assault Bolter and a power fist, with a terminator's helmet, isn't a bad stand-in for a standard Terminator.

Personally I think when "the grand squattening" occurs, GW will take several elements of the classic marines and just quietly handwave them forward.

Drop Pods, Terminators, SM Flyers, Centurions, and a few others that don't conspicuously feature old scale marines will just stay, and all marines will be primaris marines.

I also have a feeling we'll have a wave of stuff about the size of the indomitus wave that will carry forward the most iconic marine sub-faction units. We'll get primaris sang guard, primaris ravenwing, primaris space wolves, primaris GK strikes/interceptors, and primaris deathwatch vets, and then they'll just maintain all the unique terminator units, all the unique flyers, and that'll be that until they can get around to updating all the named characters, who will probably linger the longest.

as a xenos player one space marine is as good as another space marine. They all look the same except some have spikes. And I certainly keep seeing only new space marines so not sure why anyone would think they are dead..

Personally I think when "the grand squattening" occurs, GW will take several elements of the classic marines and just quietly handwave them forward.

I think we're still a long way off from that day, but agreed. I think it will be like how they handled the introduction of things like Centurions where, one edition they weren't a thing, and the next, BOOM. Suddenly they exist and have been introduced in such a way that implies they have always existed.

Tycho wrote:In another more recent novel (blanking on the name ATM) a UM chaplain is assigned a Intercessor squad when he and his fellow marines are finally called to meet up with a Torch Bearer fleet. He hasn't even heard of the Primaris yet so he's fairly off-put by the situation. They end up fighting Iron Warriors later on. At one point there's a downed IW marine and the Chaplain and Intercessors are standing over him. The IW looks at the Intercessors, then back at the Chaplain and starts to laugh and say "You are the new Thunder Warriors" or something like that, but the Chaplain executes him before he can finish the thought. The Intercessors ask what that was about and the Chaplain refuses to tell them. He spends most of the rest of the book completely unsettled by them.

Of Honour and Iron, I think?

Of Honour and Iron, I think?

That sounds right. The main plot was fairly "meh" ... Your basic SM Bolter porn, but the sub-plot of these marines dealing with the Primaris for the first time and ebing completely thrown off by them was actually really well done IMO.