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Karol wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

So the obvious result of that is that if you're a min-maxer you're naturally going to go for the army archtype that denies your opponent 15-20 points in a 90 point game. Why start at a huge disadvantage by choosing something like a psyker-heavy list that will immediately give up 30 points to an optimized elite-heavy, psyker free army?

It would require the buying of a new army for some people, and not everyone can just buy one. It is strange though to call secondaries secondaries, when there is nothing second in how important the point are, that they generate.

It would require a new handful of units. Which some still can't do, especially while everything is sold out online.

Ah yeah, if someone plays marines. I think from a GK point of view on that, there aren't any bikes or bike like units in that army.
And for some reason termintors can't fit in to a rhino, but 10 marines can.

tneva82 wrote:

Bluflash wrote:

Necrons Any idea what their bikes look like these days?
Sisters ???????? I think penitent engines are Vehicles?
k.

Necron tomb blades looking sweet. Minimal point　increase(now 35 pts with 3+ save), indomitus box overlord(but not reqular overlord in codex if that's even usable or command barge) can buff to bs2 though hotly contested by dda's. Still t5 w2 -1 to hit fast.

Sister walkers are t5 w5 4+ vehicles. No bikes whatsoever

So if Tomb Blades went up 1 more pt then they'd be trash? That's all the pts they'd need to go up by to have increased by 15%, they went up by 13% They did not get a minimal pts increase, they got a significant one while losing out on a lot of efficiencies. Holding up vehicles in melee? Gone. Now they can hold up flying bikes and XV88s in melee, units which nobody are going to take. They can now be assaulted while sitting on the second floor of a building with a charge that is no harder than if they were on the bottom floor. Most importantly they can no longer fall back and shoot.

Karol wrote:
Ah yeah, if someone plays marines. I think from a GK point of view on that, there aren't any bikes or bike like units in that army.
And for some reason termintors can't fit in to a rhino, but 10 marines can.

Marines, Eldar, CSM, Demons, Orks, Necrons, GSC, Adeptus Mechanicus, just about all the armies but Grey Knights and Tau have some sort of Biker/Cavalry unit

I've considered running small units of Windriders in my lists just for easy secondary scoring or bullying light infantry off of points, however I also feel they start to get too expensive when equipping them with anything other than a shuri cat and they just do not have the survivability to withstand most forms of fire. Those same light infantry could easily blast a unit of 3 away.

Breton wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ah yeah, if someone plays marines. I think from a GK point of view on that, there aren't any bikes or bike like units in that army.
And for some reason termintors can't fit in to a rhino, but 10 marines can.

Marines, Eldar, CSM, Demons, Orks, Necrons, GSC, Adeptus Mechanicus, just about all the armies but Grey Knights and Tau have some sort of Biker/Cavalry unit

And? How is that suppose to make my army better. For all I care GW could remove or at least nerf bikes.

The focus on moving fast and transports is only good for armies with good fast units and cheap transports. specialy when secondaries are skewed in such a way that your opponent will almost always max them vs your army.

Karol wrote:


The focus on moving fast and transports is only good for armies with good fast units and cheap transports. specialy when secondaries are skewed in such a way that your opponent will almost always max them vs your army.

GK have a lot of units that can deep strike though, many armies pay CPs to deep strike something. Stormraven, Rhinos and Razorbacks are also available for GK. All good.

Blufish you’re a new poster on here but I see a lot of thought and insight put into your posts, and you make a lot of very sensible conclusions. Of course time will tell if you’re right, but I’m inclined to pay heed to what you’re saying, you may very well be right...

Bluflash wrote:

I disagree a little bit, from the perspective of someone not looking at the most OP bike units in the game in marine bikes.

other factions bikers are not just their infantry stapled together. Many factions' bikers are 2W, which run into "the intercessor problem" of very common flat D2 weaponry attaining hyperefficiency against them. Also, many factions bikers do not have the same firepower as 2 of the basic troop: DE bikers don't and GSC bikers don't for example, they have the same firepower as 1 of their infantry.

Bikers as compared to Infantry cannot perform most actions, and cannot benefit from light heavy defensible or breachable cover. They also don't fill compulsory troops slots. and unlike vehicles, they can't shoot in melee combat, and most FLY biker units actually lost the ability to fall back and shoot.

I agree with you that bikes in general seem pretty strong and primaris bikes seem extremely strong. But looking at Windriders, and Jackals, and Reavers, I'm not quite so confident.

Ask the other guys in my Discord about the literal tons of salt I poured when we got the points for the Outriders. They're just the easiest, most egregious example of poor points calculation. Custodes and Harlequin bikes are exceptionally good as well.

But that's a fine point on all the 2W T3/4 bikes out there. If the Primaris SM part of the meta sticks, there's gonna be a ton of D2 S4/5 shooting out there.

Troops are usually vital, and I'm not suggesting 2k of just Jackals, but as part of a carefully balanced breakfast. Bikes bring some advantages not immediately apparent on the stat line/points cost.

I'm also aware that many factions don't have access to these stat lines. I'm suggesting that those that do have a very strong unit type.

I've seen a few GT reports coming in today and every winner and top 4 I've seen is rocking bikes/equivalents.

Yeah, I ran a 10-man squad of jackals with 2 quads in a few of my GSC lists and generally they performed alright. The biggest struggle I had with them is that terrain is literally worthless to them (because jackals are baseline -1 to hit, so Dense Cover does nothing) unless it's Obscuring terrain. Generally they shoot forward, grab an objective, tank some nasty firepower, are slightly more durable than my opponent expects thanks to 2W and -1 to hit, and then the splintered remains of the unit runs around the board doing stuff the rest of the game while my opponent has the turn 2 deep strike portions of my list to deal with.

So, yeah, they're fine. But that's not really "news" compared to 8th. The biker units that were good in 8th...are good in 9th. The ones that aren't, aren't, for the same reasons.

That's kind of the big thing with 9th. The meta went exactly nowhere. The divide between the good armies and bad armies just widened. It's really tough to find it interesting given how hideously imbalanced it is currently.

Breton wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ah yeah, if someone plays marines. I think from a GK point of view on that, there aren't any bikes or bike like units in that army.
And for some reason termintors can't fit in to a rhino, but 10 marines can.

Marines, Eldar, CSM, Demons, Orks, Necrons, GSC, Adeptus Mechanicus, just about all the armies but Grey Knights and Tau have some sort of Biker/Cavalry unit

Where can I buy these Sororitas Bikers?

Karol wrote:

Breton wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ah yeah, if someone plays marines. I think from a GK point of view on that, there aren't any bikes or bike like units in that army.
And for some reason termintors can't fit in to a rhino, but 10 marines can.

Marines, Eldar, CSM, Demons, Orks, Necrons, GSC, Adeptus Mechanicus, just about all the armies but Grey Knights and Tau have some sort of Biker/Cavalry unit

And? How is that suppose to make my army better. For all I care GW could remove or at least nerf bikes.

The focus on moving fast and transports is only good for armies with good fast units and cheap transports. specialy when secondaries are skewed in such a way that your opponent will almost always max them vs your army.

You have access to fast moving units too. Interceptors can get anywhere on the board and half your army can freely deepstrike. The rest can be gated into position.
Stop complaining about your army, they don't suck anymore and you not having the funds to get new models doesn't mean other armies should be nerfed because your playgroup wont let you play with count as.

 slave.entity wrote:
Which bikes have obsec? Is that really enough to call it a bike meta?

Combat squadded Deathwatch Bikers (5 max) are Obsec, which is currently an option for deathwatch in the new mission format. SS on sgt., all SIA.

Speaking of Bike Meta...

Multimelta going to two shots, new melta rule being 1d6+2 damage, Onslaugh Gatling Cannon from heavy 6 to heavy 8. Hmmm interesting.

Thanks for the kind words Nitro Zeus.

Oh man, I was salty about the Outrider bikes, but that ATV takes the cake.

80 points for 8 T5 3+ wounds that move 14" and trade Outrider combat capability for very solid AT or AI shooting. Just squadron up 3 of the mini-tanks for 24 T5 3+ with 6 improved melta-shots with a 38" threat range for about 240 points.

I know I said Bikes should be part of a balanced breakfast, but with stats and point costs like that a White Scars Outriders and ATVs army sounds like a slam dunk.

 Galas wrote:
Multimelta going to two shots, new melta rule being 1d6+2 damage, Onslaugh Gatling Cannon from heavy 6 to heavy 8. Hmmm interesting.

If that’s the new melta rule I hope that trickles down to everyone(even the filthy Xenos), would make them a lot better.

uh...I really really think this thing is like 80-85pts.

At least this resolves the whole "Eradicator Melta Rifle = 1 barrel = 2 shots, Multi-melta = 2 barrels = 1 shot" issue.

And I like the new melta rule.

Her'es hoping they roll it out to everyone in an FAQ. Retributors being 2 shots a model sounds pretty great. Welcome to the age of melta!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Multimelta going to two shots, new melta rule being 1d6+2 damage, Onslaugh Gatling Cannon from heavy 6 to heavy 8. Hmmm interesting.

I have been thinking for a while the game just isn't deadly enough, I'm glad they're fixing that problem.

That new bike is better than a dreadnought...

Also, what's the best kit for a basic SM bike squad now? Grav? or Flamers? or still melta?

Primaris Attack Bike and New Rapier Laser Destroyer turrets.

I wouldn’t mind seeing thunderfire Canons, Thudd Guns and other counter mobility guns, strats, and abilities come back so there’s some push and pull on mobility.

I knew that the MM was going to be 2 shots after seeing the points values, definitely makes it a viable option on some platforms. Wasn't expecting the damage change, however.

 bullyboy wrote:
I knew that the MM was going to be 2 shots after seeing the points values, definitely makes it a viable option on some platforms. Wasn't expecting the damage change, however.

That will definitely give it a much better anti-tank/monster role in armies, up to 8 damage min 3 at half range will be very nice.

Interesting that the las talon is the default on the turret - I think all the pics we've seen are the autocannon.

Will we see both options in the kit (which IIRC is supposed to be ETB)?

 ScarletRose wrote:
Interesting that the las talon is the default on the turret - I think all the pics we've seen are the autocannon.

Will we see both options in the kit (which IIRC is supposed to be ETB)?

Yeah, I would suspect so. The Lokhust will come with both options and what looks like two heads and is ETB as well.

 bullyboy wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Which bikes have obsec? Is that really enough to call it a bike meta?

Combat squadded Deathwatch Bikers (5 max) are Obsec, which is currently an option for deathwatch in the new mission format. SS on sgt., all SIA.

Kill teams cannot take Biker sergeants. Only regular bikes, which cannot equip storm shields.

The problem with Melta was/is 24/12. 12 is rapid fire and/or charge range if you miss, or your target has friends. Plus human nature will feel “cheated” if they don’t want to risk the “good” profile. The Las-Talon when available is likely to still be a preferred choice between the two. Make Melta 36/18 and people start making choices.p

Sterling191 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Which bikes have obsec? Is that really enough to call it a bike meta?

Combat squadded Deathwatch Bikers (5 max) are Obsec, which is currently an option for deathwatch in the new mission format. SS on sgt., all SIA.

Kill teams cannot take Biker sergeants. Only regular bikes, which cannot equip storm shields.

right, right...SS only on biker sgt in separate sqds. But still, obsec bikes possible in DW kill teams which isn't too shabby.

Breton wrote:
The problem with Melta was/is 24/12. 12 is rapid fire and/or charge range if you miss, or your target has friends. Plus human nature will feel “cheated” if they don’t want to risk the “good” profile. The Las-Talon when available is likely to still be a preferred choice between the two. Make Melta 36/18 and people start making choices.p

Erm... the mutli-melta and the las-talon aren't on the same platform?

Bluflash wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Being white scars locked is kinda lame for that stratagem. It still only protects 1 unit of 3...which honestly is a waste for a 2CP strata. They would be better off using regular bikes in a huge squad. Still though - it is only against shooting attacks and qetting charged in your opponents zone is actually pretty common.

Nah, Skilled Riders is a generic SM strat that most people forgot about. WS do have Born in the Saddle for advance, shoot, and charge and Ride Hard, Ride Fast for a nice -1 to hit.

Again though, its not about Outriders being OP, its about bikes a whole being a very strong unit type. SM Bikes and Scout Bikes have value too, at least until we can take 5 Outriders in a squad.

Ah thanks for correction.

Breton wrote:
The problem with Melta was/is 24/12. 12 is rapid fire and/or charge range if you miss, or your target has friends. Plus human nature will feel “cheated” if they don’t want to risk the “good” profile. The Las-Talon when available is likely to still be a preferred choice between the two. Make Melta 36/18 and people start making choices.p

Atleats your is 24/12 some of us are stuck with 18/9 and a 8 inch charge is less might and more will.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:
The problem with Melta was/is 24/12. 12 is rapid fire and/or charge range if you miss, or your target has friends. Plus human nature will feel “cheated” if they don’t want to risk the “good” profile. The Las-Talon when available is likely to still be a preferred choice between the two. Make Melta 36/18 and people start making choices.p

Erm... the mutli-melta and the las-talon aren't on the same platform?

The Las-Talon when available is likely to still be...

It could at some point be on the same platform, or it could be a matter of mixing and matching different platforms to get a talon somewhere else and put something different on this one. As more or less the attack bike replacement it may or may not run around with outriders. It does not have any Astartes Chainswords, and just the one heavy bolt pistol. When the inevitable Redemptor Melta Arm comes out it’ll almost assuredly benefit from this change. But this ATV doesn’t feel like a good 12 inch platform. 3 eradicators in an Impulsor will probably cost more, but feel like a better buy for the job a kamikaze MeltATV would be sent to do, Assault 1 for tactical doctrine, and leaves room for a Lieutenant to bubble the 1’s to wound. Rare, and more expensive, but an option the ATV doesn’t have. Eliminators with Las Fusils are likely in the same points ballpark and sound better. Plasma Inceptors if you want to stay in the FA slot. Relic Marine Bike squad with two special weapons is in this price range too. 2-3 Relic Marine Attack Bikes are also in this range. Heck, spamming Relic Marine Bikes in MSU sounds like it would be a fun way to annoy an opponent into mistakes on splitting fire. Assuming 3 attack bikes are in the same ballpark... 12 T5 wounds, requiring at least three shots. With three x2 Multi Melta shots in return. 6A, 3 bolt pistols. Again assuming 3 Old Marine Attack Bikes and one MeltATV are roughly the same cost. If you’ve gotta have Melta, they’re a better platform for it, but I’d stick with the Onslaught and get my anti-tank elsewhere.