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eradicators cant ride in an impulsor since they're wearing gravis armour.

would be nice if they could

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:
The problem with Melta was/is 24/12. 12 is rapid fire and/or charge range if you miss, or your target has friends. Plus human nature will feel “cheated” if they don’t want to risk the “good” profile. The Las-Talon when available is likely to still be a preferred choice between the two. Make Melta 36/18 and people start making choices.p

Atleats your is 24/12 some of us are stuck with 18/9 and a 8 inch charge is less might and more will.

The Fogey Marine Melta Gun is 12/6. But you can bury 2 of them in a 10-ish model bike squad that kind of wants to be charged. It you see the point all the same. When Melta can be danced around at that sweet spot range then it becomes fairly viable. When the rhino (or whatever) can just charge the platform and laugh at the now useless multimelta...

I'm more concerned that GW change the MultiMelta and Leave Fusion for Tau, Eldar etc at the 1 shot shorter range profile and don't change the points to reflect that they just got way worse compaired to multimeltas.

Racerguy180 wrote:
eradicators cant ride in an impulsor since they're wearing gravis armour.

would be nice if they could

They’re in Gravis? I haven’t built mine yet, or seen any up close. Oof. Guess I won’t need very many of them. Man, the bikes are about the only really good thing in this box. The storm shield boys are nice but.. I mean cmon. Another Captain and Lieutenant? Though this could be the best LT ever. The command squad units get way too pricey too fast, especially when you start adding on the specialists who were split out to be quasi-characters like champions, ancients and apothecaries.

Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

This was never going to be a vehicle. It may look different, but it’s the attack bike bike-with-sidecar after the sculptor watched the Dark Knight while downing a 12 pack, a doobie, or both. I am kind of shocked there isn’t more kit overlap between them maybe two bikes attached together, one with the Bolter, one with the multimelta/onslaught.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the 8 wounds thing it follows the formula.

Old marine = 1 wound.
Old marine bike = 1 wound.
Two old marines on bike = 4 wounds, 2x1 + 2x1

Primaris marine 2W
Primaris Bike 2W
Two Primaris on Bike = 8W 2x2 + 2x2

Two bodies on the bike gets to add the bikes wounds twice.

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

Can’t speak for the others, but the Vyper has both the bike and the vehicle keyword.

Breton wrote:
This was never going to be a vehicle. It may look different, but it’s the attack bike bike-with-sidecar after the sculptor watched the Dark Knight while downing a 12 pack, a doobie, or both. I am kind of shocked there isn’t more kit overlap between them maybe two bikes attached together, one with the Bolter, one with the multimelta/onslaught.

If the Deffkopta (4W, lol) is a vehicle that thing should definitely be a vehicle. Attack bikes also.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:
This was never going to be a vehicle. It may look different, but it’s the attack bike bike-with-sidecar after the sculptor watched the Dark Knight while downing a 12 pack, a doobie, or both. I am kind of shocked there isn’t more kit overlap between them maybe two bikes attached together, one with the Bolter, one with the multimelta/onslaught.

If the Deffkopta (4W, lol) is a vehicle that thing should definitely be a vehicle. Attack bikes also.

Agreed. This thing is nonsense...

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

It isn't the first four wheeled 'bike'- the GSC Wolfquad gets that honor, I believe.

Biker doesn't actually mean much, though. It ignores the -1 with heavy weapons by virtue of NOT being infantry, but also doesn't get to benefit from most cover by not being Infantry, Beast or Swarm.
It actually loses out for not being a vehicle, as it can't shoot in combat (except the really weird throwaway pistol shot)

Beyond that its just a keyword check for specific references, like Bolter Discipline (doesn't have to be stationary to get the benefit, though that doesn't actually help the Invader, though it does the Outriders)

Voss, respectful disagree.

The fact that many of them have vehicle level profiles, but don't count for Bring em Down is huge. There a number of rule and strat effect for them having an off keyword. Move block knights? Sure! Transhuman Phys, Absolutely! Ignore the ridiculous auto-mortals from Haywire guns, Yup!

Not being able to shoot in combat is a minor miss for most of these guys (excepting the ATV) as typically biker units excel in combat. That means with a good tag, the enemy is way more likely to fall back rather than stay in.

Also look wider than just the new SM cawl-heresy. Custodes get away with some of the most durable units in the game not counting for any VP. Each Praetor squad is a mini-tank.

Harlies are just as threatening, and are a turn 1 priority target, but give no points.

While they don't get cover, they usually have a tougher profile than their on-foot friends that makes up for it, and generally (though there are exceptions) compare favorably point for point vs line infantry.

Ah. I mostly meant that 'biker' as a keyword doesn't have any inherent benefits. Its mostly defined by what it isn't (infantry or vehicle).

Transhuman Phys is the kind of thing I meant by the keyword check.

The shooting in combat I as thinking mostly of the Invader. It makes the old attack bike feel really bad about its life.

---
I'm not sure falling back from outriders is a good call though. In fact I'm pretty sure its not, as getting far enough away is basically impossible, and a fresh charge doubles their attacks over just sitting in combat with them. (shock assault plus 2 more attacks for their special rule)

Voss wrote:

I'm not sure falling back from outriders is a good call though. In fact I'm pretty sure its not, as getting far enough away is basically impossible, and a fresh charge doubles their attacks over just sitting in combat with them. (shock assault plus 2 more attacks for their special rule)

That's assuming you don't kill the Outriders with shooting first, which is the point of falling back. Not to get away, but to shoot the p*$$ out of the unit you fell back from.

-

Voss wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

It isn't the first four wheeled 'bike'- the GSC Wolfquad gets that honor, I believe.

Yes, but individual models within units do not have their own keywords, and wolfquads can only be fielded if you already have 4 models that definitely definitely are bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

It isn't the first four wheeled 'bike'- the GSC Wolfquad gets that honor, I believe.

Biker doesn't actually mean much, though. It ignores the -1 with heavy weapons by virtue of NOT being infantry, but also doesn't get to benefit from most cover by not being Infantry, Beast or Swarm.
It actually loses out for not being a vehicle, as it can't shoot in combat (except the really weird throwaway pistol shot)

Beyond that its just a keyword check for specific references, like Bolter Discipline (doesn't have to be stationary to get the benefit, though that doesn't actually help the Invader, though it does the Outriders)

That is kind of what I meant by reverse-riptided. It got a different classification than it really should have (like how the riptide was a 'monster" and not a walker, despite it having all the same classifications as a dreadnought or sentinel) but in this case, it ended up with worse rules because of it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

vypers have the bike keyword too.

Vypers are both vehicles and bikes, unlike this thing.

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

presumably because it's the spirtual sucessor to

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Can we bring up the fact that this thing seemingly got reverse-riptided? Why in the living heck is it a "bike" when every other vehicle that has a similar style of "driver and gunner in the back standing on a turret" (Vyper, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Voidweaver, Venom) has the VEHICLE keyword, which is incidentally way better in 9th?

the thing has 8 friggin wounds? What were they smoking when they thought "you know what this is, a bike! yes, it's a bike with four wheels hurpadurp"

presumably because it's the spirtual sucessor to

. More than Spiritual. In an edition or two with the cyclic nature of GW we’re going to see the ability to take 3, 5, or 8 outriders and an ATV.

ATV stands for all-terrain vehicle...

 Oaka wrote:
ATV stands for all-terrain vehicle...

I will cry foul if 'the carrion mass of your butchered foes' does not get included as a type of terrain!

 Oaka wrote:
ATV stands for all-terrain vehicle...

I do agree that the Invader should have BOTH the BIKE and VEHICLE keyword.
It just makes the most sense. And there is precedent for having both keywords: Eldar Vypers have both keywords.

Side note of "spiritual successor": I'm kinda annoyed that GW has been releasing Primaris alongside classic Marines.
In the past, new plastic kits were either completely new units or 1:1 replacements of old metal/finecast kits. But most Primaris units are niether/both.
Intercessors, for example, were new units but also clearer a replacement of Tactical Marines.

What this means is that players cannot continue to use their old models as the new ones. You can still use old metal Terminators if you want, but you can't really use Tactical Marines as Intercessors.
Even when Tacticals get phased out (which will happen some day) you still won't be able to use them as Intercessors because they existed alongside Intercessors as a different unit.

This is clearly intentional by GW, but it is annoying. Moving forward, I just cannot bring myself to buy anything that isn't Primaris for this reason.
To bring this back on topic, the ATV is clearly meant to replace Attack Bikes but is juuuust unique enough to stop most people from proxying Attack bikes as ATVs.

-

By "unique", do you mean "horrifyingly goofy", and not in an endearing kind of way?

 Galef wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
ATV stands for all-terrain vehicle...

I do agree that the Invader should have BOTH the BIKE and VEHICLE keyword.
-

I think that would be a mistake given the bike could then be resurrected, repaired, and shoot into combat. I much prefer it with the BIKE keyword only.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
By "unique", do you mean "horrifyingly goofy", and not in an endearing kind of way?

To each thier own I suppose. I kinda like the Halo Warthog/Mario kart look.

In fact, I kinda want to get one now just to paint the driver in bright red armour with a white "M" on his shoulder and paint the gunner bright green with a white "L" on his should.
Paint the chassis blue like their overalls.

Speaking of, do you guys know what Mario & Luigi's overalls are made of?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
ATV stands for all-terrain vehicle...

I do agree that the Invader should have BOTH the BIKE and VEHICLE keyword.
-

I think that would be a mistake given the bike could then be resurrected, repaired, and shoot into combat. I much prefer it with the BIKE keyword only.

I'd say just giving it the VEHICLE keyword would be better. The things got 8 wounds for crying out loud. It should count towards Bring It Down.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'd say just giving it the VEHICLE keyword would be better. The things got 8 wounds for crying out loud. It should count towards Bring It Down.

Yea, but do you want it shooting into combat? Given its speed it'd be more than happy to oblige.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'd say just giving it the VEHICLE keyword would be better. The things got 8 wounds for crying out loud. It should count towards Bring It Down.

Yea, but do you want it shooting into combat? Given its speed it'd be more than happy to oblige.

Alternative , we take it behind the shed and End it's suffering.
Even sleighman had his following ,but this thing , it disgusts me, ruleswise and Model wise.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'd say just giving it the VEHICLE keyword would be better. The things got 8 wounds for crying out loud. It should count towards Bring It Down.

Yea, but do you want it shooting into combat? Given its speed it'd be more than happy to oblige.

Actually, I prefer Not Online's idea .

But since that either means it's wasting those 2 S8, -4AP, Dd6+2 shots on my meq infantry or one of my vehicles who all either have 4++ in cc or are T9 2+ with at least 22 wounds or are just a rhino, I say "yeah". Let the ugly little bugger come in for a hug from my contemptor's chainclaws or my Fellblade's treads, right before it unloads 2 S14, -4AP, D6 shots into its face. And on a 5+ they eat its soul and get a wound back. It's all Hellforged in my army.