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Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Time to bust out my Multimelta Devastator bits, finish my Attack Bikes and re-equip my Land Speeders for 2 shot Multimeltas.

Can I still put two Multimeltas on my Land Speeders using the Index? I'm going to assume I can't.

I'd suggest waiting. This changes nothing for any other multimelta.

they might be future proofing so when everyone else gets the 2 shot +2 damage multi-meltas with their own codex then the pioints will be right

but hopefully they are not that useless....

 Grimtuff wrote:

And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!

At least in this case the Multimelta was rarely picked as a weapon choice, and is shared by armies other than Space Marines. Like a Demolisher with Multimelta sponsons becomes a total beast at 24" range, and Sisters get a big extra punch for their Retributors. And Land Speeders. When is the last time you saw a Land Speeder? An extra Multimelta shot on a platform that now doesn't have a -1 penalty for moving is sweet.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Time to bust out my Multimelta Devastator bits, finish my Attack Bikes and re-equip my Land Speeders for 2 shot Multimeltas.

Can I still put two Multimeltas on my Land Speeders using the Index? I'm going to assume I can't.

I'd suggest waiting. This changes nothing for any other multimelta.

Says "Multimelta", not Heavy Onslaught MacroMultiMelta or anything.

Quite true. But that doesn't actually matter. You use the weapon on your datasheet, not a different datasheet. There is no rulebook rule, FAQ, update or anything else to even suggest otherwise.

Its no different than the different weapons that are already in the game, specifically that some meltaguns say that you discard the lowest roll, others say that you discard one of your choice (when rolling two dice for being in half range)
Or even the plasma weapons that outright destroy the bearer or the other plasma weapons that say the bearer suffers 1 MW. And those happen within the same books.


'Future proofing' the point costs makes zero sense. You still use the printed rules as is. FAQs are out and done. If they wanted to change the weapon profiles, they would have done it, same way they did for updating the various demolisher cannons to the same rules for everyone.

At some point they could change them (for everyone, or not). But until they do, the current rules (in the relevant codex or PA or whatever) are the only correct ones.

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Time to bust out my Multimelta Devastator bits, finish my Attack Bikes and re-equip my Land Speeders for 2 shot Multimeltas.

Can I still put two Multimeltas on my Land Speeders using the Index? I'm going to assume I can't.

I'd suggest waiting. This changes nothing for any other multimelta.

Says "Multimelta", not Heavy Onslaught MacroMultiMelta or anything.

Quite true. But that doesn't actually matter. You use the weapon on your datasheet, not a different datasheet. There is no rulebook rule, FAQ, update or anything else to even suggest otherwise.

Its no different than the different weapons that are already in the game, specifically that some meltaguns say that you discard the lowest roll, others say that you discard one of your choice (when rolling two dice for being in half range)
Or even the plasma weapons that either outright destroy the bearer or the other plasma weapons that say the bearer suffers 1 MW. And those happen within the same books.

^Fair points, but I don't think it'll play out like that. I'm going to be bullish on MMs and shuffle my painting priorities around to get them done sooner rather than later.

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Time to bust out my Multimelta Devastator bits, finish my Attack Bikes and re-equip my Land Speeders for 2 shot Multimeltas.

Can I still put two Multimeltas on my Land Speeders using the Index? I'm going to assume I can't.

I'd suggest waiting. This changes nothing for any other multimelta.

Says "Multimelta", not Heavy Onslaught MacroMultiMelta or anything.

Quite true. But that doesn't actually matter. You use the weapon on your datasheet, not a different datasheet. There is no rulebook rule, FAQ, update or anything else to even suggest otherwise.

Its no different than the different weapons that are already in the game, specifically that some meltaguns say that you discard the lowest roll, others say that you discard one of your choice (when rolling two dice for being in half range)
Or even the plasma weapons that outright destroy the bearer or the other plasma weapons that say the bearer suffers 1 MW. And those happen within the same books.


'Future proofing' the point costs makes zero sense. You still use the printed rules as is. FAQs are out and done. If they wanted to change the weapon profiles, they would have done it, same way they did for updating the various demolisher cannons to the same rules for everyone.

Maybe they hadn't finished the weapon profile faqs? Maybe they're waiting for the first codex before changing everyone's crap. Maybe the app is needed to be at a certain milestone to facilitate rolling out the changes. There are many reasons chapter approved may have been done before they updated weapons. The app not being ready to have updated profiles may have been the big one.

Voss wrote:

Or even the plasma weapons that outright destroy the bearer or the other plasma weapons that say the bearer suffers 1 MW. And those happen within the same books.

The Plasma weapons with that difference are actually named differently, iirc. For example theres a Plasma Cannon for the infantry models which slays the model outright, and the Heavy Plasma Cannon which is exactly the same except it does one MW, and is the option available to vehicles.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!

At least in this case the Multimelta was rarely picked as a weapon choice, and is shared by armies other than Space Marines. Like a Demolisher with Multimelta sponsons becomes a total beast at 24" range, and Sisters get a big extra punch for their Retributors. And Land Speeders. When is the last time you saw a Land Speeder? An extra Multimelta shot on a platform that now doesn't have a -1 penalty for moving is sweet.

The MM changes are good, but I was mocking the changes to the Invictor in that post.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!

At least in this case the Multimelta was rarely picked as a weapon choice, and is shared by armies other than Space Marines. Like a Demolisher with Multimelta sponsons becomes a total beast at 24" range, and Sisters get a big extra punch for their Retributors. And Land Speeders. When is the last time you saw a Land Speeder? An extra Multimelta shot on a platform that now doesn't have a -1 penalty for moving is sweet.

The MM changes are good, but I was mocking the changes to the Invictor in that post.

So you were. Carry on

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!

At least in this case the Multimelta was rarely picked as a weapon choice, and is shared by armies other than Space Marines. Like a Demolisher with Multimelta sponsons becomes a total beast at 24" range, and Sisters get a big extra punch for their Retributors. And Land Speeders. When is the last time you saw a Land Speeder? An extra Multimelta shot on a platform that now doesn't have a -1 penalty for moving is sweet.

You assume they get it. Point of bespoke rules is every datasheet can be unique.

Imperium now has 3 differently working multi melta. Well necrons are happy that this melta effect is worse. Too bad not universal melta effect

tneva82 wrote:

You assume they get it. Point of bespoke rules is every datasheet can be unique.

I am assuming that, yes. Like I said, I'm going to be bullish on Multimeltas. There are times when GW is sloppy about this sort of thing, but I don't think they'll be so sloppy in this case.

tneva82 wrote:
Imperium now has 3 differently working multi melta.

We've got the Mario Kart Multimelta, and the default Multimelta - where's the third one? And is it also just called "Multimelta", or does it have a variant name on the profile?

Actually screw being measured. I wait with baited breath for the codex, but I'm afraid every Marine release seems to induce a "NO, NO, NOOOOO" response from me.

Its just obscene and I hate it.

It just feels like GW is doing this "look, it has to be top 10% or no one will buy it, make it good".
And then you compare to the Necron stuff and its "meh, anyone playing Necrons is probably doing it because they like the models or fluff. Who cares on the rules?"

Comparing the Heavy Lokhust to the ATV, which presumably are around the same points, is just like two different games.

Seeing the rules previews so far utterly kills my hope that GW realized there is a rules imbalance and was planning to bring Necrons up to the level of Marines. I can't see RP and dynasty traits elevating the Necron datasheets to what the Marine ones do with doctrines, super-doctrines, and chapter traits.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!

At least in this case the Multimelta was rarely picked as a weapon choice, and is shared by armies other than Space Marines. Like a Demolisher with Multimelta sponsons becomes a total beast at 24" range, and Sisters get a big extra punch for their Retributors. And Land Speeders. When is the last time you saw a Land Speeder? An extra Multimelta shot on a platform that now doesn't have a -1 penalty for moving is sweet.

Sisters might be getting TOO big of a punch with this. With MD and Storm of Fire, it;'s trivial to guarantee 27 damage on 3 failed saves for SoB retributors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:
Seeing the rules previews so far utterly kills my hope that GW realized there is a rules imbalance and was planning to bring Necrons up to the level of Marines. I can't see RP and dynasty traits elevating the Necron datasheets to what the Marine ones do with doctrines, super-doctrines, and chapter traits.

What if they remove doctrines and super doctrines?

Tyel wrote:
Actually screw being measured. I wait with baited breath for the codex, but I'm afraid every Marine release seems to induce a "NO, NO, NOOOOO" response from me.

Its just obscene and I hate it.

It just feels like GW is doing this "look, it has to be top 10% or no one will buy it, make it good".
And then you compare to the Necron stuff and its "meh, anyone playing Necrons is probably doing it because they like the models or fluff. Who cares on the rules?"

Comparing the Heavy Lokhust to the ATV, which presumably are around the same points, is just like two different games.

70 vs 80 (85 for the MM version). The points for these are in the back of CA2020.

Voss wrote:
70 vs 80 (85 for the MM version). The points for these are in the back of CA2020.

I guess my hope is that these are all sort of weird placeholders they threw together for Indomitus, and there will be a proper review and change in October with the codexes.

Tyel wrote:
Actually screw being measured. I wait with baited breath for the codex, but I'm afraid every Marine release seems to induce a "NO, NO, NOOOOO" response from me.

Its just obscene and I hate it.

It just feels like GW is doing this "look, it has to be top 10% or no one will buy it, make it good".
And then you compare to the Necron stuff and its "meh, anyone playing Necrons is probably doing it because they like the models or fluff. Who cares on the rules?"

Comparing the Heavy Lokhust to the ATV, which presumably are around the same points, is just like two different games.

To be fair to them, with this community its branded a trash paperweight unless it wins tourneys singlehandedly, so you're maybe not far off the money.

 Mr Morden wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
what's interesting to me is that the new melta rule (the damage +2 thing) is not on the eradicator datasheet. They have the usual, half range, roll twice rule.

If they were planning on +2 damage being the new core rule, why wouldn't they change it for eradicators?

and if those datasheets are just "filler" and the core changes are coming in the new 'dex, then why would Storm Shields be changed in the new datasheets? Why not just leave off all changes to the codex?

Good point - maybe they figured they were already overpowered and decided to give them lesser versions

or maybe they wanted to make sure multimelta's still had a place, I mean with these rules a multi melta devestator squad is still going to have a place on the battlefield.

WOOOOOOOOO

I miss the flying rodent gak insanity.


The beam coming out the front of the melta looks exactly how it would sound....weird.

which in all fairness, kinda makes sense.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I miss the flying rodent gak insanity.


The beam coming out the front of the melta looks exactly how it would sound....weird.

which in all fairness, kinda makes sense.

My favorite detail is the big energy beam leaving shadows on itself, and the lightning impact crackle leaving a shadow on the armor.

Soooo....who wants to do retributors vs eradicators with these MM in their hands?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo....who wants to do retributors vs eradicators with these MM in their hands?

Eradicators don't have a penalty for moving and firing, and are way tougher, for starters. I don't know the Retributor cost, but a Devastator is 35 to the Eradicator 40.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
what's interesting to me is that the new melta rule (the damage +2 thing) is not on the eradicator datasheet. They have the usual, half range, roll twice rule.

If they were planning on +2 damage being the new core rule, why wouldn't they change it for eradicators?

and if those datasheets are just "filler" and the core changes are coming in the new 'dex, then why would Storm Shields be changed in the new datasheets? Why not just leave off all changes to the codex?

Good point - maybe they figured they were already overpowered and decided to give them lesser versions

or maybe they wanted to make sure multimelta's still had a place, I mean with these rules a multi melta devestator squad is still going to have a place on the battlefield.

Prior to this, the idea that anyone would voluntarily take any variety of multimelta on anything at 20/25/50 was frankly laughable. Even SoB, who don't really have any other options weren't even considering multimeltas.

Just to clarify, are we thinking:

1. That new datasheets will have minimal special rules (if any).
2. That these are just the "in box" datasheets to get people started, and that the full rules will still require the Codex.

I could see GW doing either. Or both (somehow...).

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo....who wants to do retributors vs eradicators with these MM in their hands?

Eradicators don't have a penalty for moving and firing, and are way tougher, for starters. I don't know the Retributor cost, but a Devastator is 35 to the Eradicator 40.

Retributors don't have a penalty for moving and firing. One retributor to one eradicator works out in the eradicators favor.

A unit of retributors, who have 12 shots the first time they fire with armorium cherubs, at 36" range+1 damage with storm of fire, with miracle dice guaranteeing at least 2 high rolls on a damage chart...

Those might compare very fairly.

Forgive me, where's the 36" range coming from?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo....who wants to do retributors vs eradicators with these MM in their hands?

Eradicators don't have a penalty for moving and firing, and are way tougher, for starters. I don't know the Retributor cost, but a Devastator is 35 to the Eradicator 40.

Tougher on a model basis, not necessarily a squad/firepower loss basis. Although I may not even bother paying for the additional bodies and just use it as drop pod suicide squad ALA GravDevs. As salamanders I can pop the 1 cp strat for them to ignore the move penalty. So they drop down and pop off 8 shots, even losing the reroll to hit they're still getting 5 or so hits, and those hits in 12" range are going to hurt. With a +1 to wound from the super doctrine and the reroll to wound that squad is going to chunk anything that isn't a knight, and even then they'll still most likely bracket it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forgive me, where's the 36" range coming from?

It might be 30, I don't remember exactly but the SoB strat storm of fire adds range to multimelta shots(pretty sure it was 12 but might be 6) as well as +1 damage.

That's ignoring the fact that you can also have them advance and fire without penalty in argent shroud, so 42+d6" threat range.

ERJAK wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forgive me, where's the 36" range coming from?

It might be 30, I don't remember exactly but the SoB strat storm of fire adds range to multimelta shots(pretty sure it was 12 but might be 6) as well as +1 damage.

That's ignoring the fact that you can also have them advance and fire without penalty in argent shroud, so 42+d6" threat range.

Granted you are paying 2cp for that +12 range and +1 damage, and its not like your always going to have a 6 miracle dice on hand to guarantee 9 damage at half range