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 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*EDIT* - I forgot to ask, though I meant to - is there seriously nothing stopping you using the CM stratagem on a special character?

"Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES CAPTAIN model from your army that is not a named character."

Thank you, Jidmah - I didn't get around to picking up SM8.5, so wasn't sure of the current wording.

And Brian, there were a couple of people further up the thread that seemed to be talking about upgrading named characters, which is another reason I was unsure.

Honestly given the number of game conventions marines ignore that every other army has to follow I would be absolutely 0% surprised to learn you could upgrade named characters in marines.

They still get to deep strike turn 1, they don't have to give up chapter benefits to choose custom chapters, they get better rerolls, they get to keep numerous options and units that have no official models, they get multiple datasheets from the same kit, they get to have two warlord traits on one model, they get Limited Release models and get to keep their wargear as standard options...

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*EDIT* - I forgot to ask, though I meant to - is there seriously nothing stopping you using the CM stratagem on a special character?

"Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES CAPTAIN model from your army that is not a named character."

Thank you, Jidmah - I didn't get around to picking up SM8.5, so wasn't sure of the current wording.

And Brian, there were a couple of people further up the thread that seemed to be talking about upgrading named characters, which is another reason I was unsure.

Honestly given the number of game conventions marines ignore that every other army has to follow I would be absolutely 0% surprised to learn you could upgrade named characters in marines.

They still get to deep strike turn 1, they don't have to give up chapter benefits to choose custom chapters, they get better rerolls, they get to keep numerous options and units that have no official models, they get multiple datasheets from the same kit, they get to have two warlord traits on one model, they get Limited Release models and get to keep their wargear as standard options...

Sounds about right. Too bad they lost getting all transports for free. Now that was some solid rule.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Listen dude. I could easily say that no unit should be able to move twice or shoot twice in a turn but pretty much every army has something to this effect.

I mean, you might well find that that idea has more support than you'd think.

There was a reason Ynnari had to be FAQd/errata'd about 6 times in early 8th.


Personally, I think any double-shoot/double-fight abilities should have to be part of a unit's dataslate.

Having them as Stratagems means that you're trying to point units that could potentially see their offensive abilities doubled based on what might as well be a CCG.

How, for example, do you point CSM Havocs in a balanced manner? Not all of them get access to the Stratagem, of those only one can have it each turn (though more models also bring redundancy in case the first squad is deleted or depleted), and you might end up not giving it to any of them on some/all turns due to, for example, running low on CPs.

At least with something like a Leman Russ you can make a reasonable assumption that it will be firing its main weapon twice each turn.

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying that units with double-move or double-fight abilities necessarily are appropriately costed, just that it's a lot easier to try and balance them than it is units who can get those abilities based on completely external factors like Stratagems.)

The answer to your Havoc question is you don't. You price the Stratagem as though it were used on a unit with LOTS of guns.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The answer to your Havoc question is you don't. You price the Stratagem as though it were used on a unit with LOTS of guns.

Some stratagems are priced depending on who is the target. DW Assault for example costs 2 or 3 CP depending on how big the unit using it is.
I would like that concept to be more widely applied.

Single Minded Annihilation is probably going the same route once the new nid codex hits, since the one in Kill Team has a variable cost,

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The answer to your Havoc question is you don't. You price the Stratagem as though it were used on a unit with LOTS of guns.

Some stratagems are priced depending on who is the target. DW Assault for example costs 2 or 3 CP depending on how big the unit using it is.
I would like that concept to be more widely applied.

Single Minded Annihilation is probably going the same route once the new nid codex hits, since the one in Kill Team has a variable cost,

Keep.in mind that DW Assault only affects a couple of units though. You will not be using Endless Cacophony on regular Chaos Marines even if the Strat was only 1CP for them.

New Hellblaster instruction sheet:

Is not that the exact same image posted earlier in the thread, but inexplicably not hidden by spoiler tags so now it takes forever to load?

Interesting that Primaris are staying 2 wounds. Makes sense to prevent the natural creep that would impose, but it did diminish their value. A superior creation that results in... 1 more attack. Weee.

Depending on the points I could see myself bringing hellblasters again and probably the assault version to counter all the marines out there or the heavy for some anti tank perhaps. The assault are at super high risk of blowing up and dying though so there is that to consider.

I'm happy that primaris are staying at 2 wounds as apparently the points gap between tacticals and primaris is closing. Primaris marines are very slightly more durable then their OG brothers, not twice or a third as much. It wouldn't make sense a regular Primaris marine has as many wounds as a Terminator or the Custodes.

Also very happy with the Hellblaster changes where every weapon feels a bit more different now. I don't miss the old days of Hellblasters being the ONLY Primaris anti-tank but it sucks I never have a reason to bring them anymore. Hopefully now I can

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Interesting that Primaris are staying 2 wounds. Makes sense to prevent the natural creep that would impose, but it did diminish their value. A superior creation that results in... 1 more attack. Weee.

An extra attack and a bigger gun is a lot closer to what they are in lore than having literally double the wounds of non-Primaris. This way you can have things like Cult Marines actually look scarier than Primaris, and veteran SM/CSM units (Sternguard/Vanguard, Chosen) can hold their own.

I think both non-Rapid-Fire Hellblaster variants are probably going to be seen more often, provided there isn't anything screwy with their points. Three shots on the Assault profile is a lot of zapping (even non-overcharged, 3 shots at S6/D1 is slightly better than 1 shot at S8/D2 against T4/W2, and a LOT better against T5/W3), and higher damage on the Heavy variant makes it more worthwhile as a light vehicle hunter.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Interesting that Primaris are staying 2 wounds. Makes sense to prevent the natural creep that would impose, but it did diminish their value. A superior creation that results in... 1 more attack. Weee

Technically their value remains the same. Primaris doesn't get worse just because Firstborn get's better. Firstborn getting better just means that ... Firstborn get better.
If you have a bar at 2 meters and one bar at 1,5 meters, and then raise the second bar to 1,8 or even 2 meters, the first bar is still at 2 meters.

And if we're talking fluff, well... fluff should never be an excuse for bad internal (or external) balance.

So...the guns these guys are toting around are a lot better now, across the board for both factions.

That's not...great for a game as lethal as 40k.

Assault plasma in Dark Angels is sweet since you can just use the strat to make D2 without overcharging. Great way to clear out other marines while ignoring risk to self.

None of those prevent you from taking Primaris in your army, ERJAK.

C'mon, man, read the material before you try to be clever.

But they kind of a do. If you take them as transports, and want to run primaris then you will not have enough points to run something else.

ERJAK wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

Then Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take any primaris with a chapter master. Of course GW would never write a rule prohibiting you from taking primaris...

Rhinos, Razorbacks, landraider, droppod. Duh.

None of those prevent you from taking Primaris in your army, ERJAK.

C'mon, man, read the material before you try to be clever.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Listen dude. I could easily say that no unit should be able to move twice or shoot twice in a turn but pretty much every army has something to this effect.

I mean, you might well find that that idea has more support than you'd think.

There was a reason Ynnari had to be FAQd/errata'd about 6 times in early 8th.


Personally, I think any double-shoot/double-fight abilities should have to be part of a unit's dataslate.

Having them as Stratagems means that you're trying to point units that could potentially see their offensive abilities doubled based on what might as well be a CCG.

How, for example, do you point CSM Havocs in a balanced manner? Not all of them get access to the Stratagem, of those only one can have it each turn (though more models also bring redundancy in case the first squad is deleted or depleted), and you might end up not giving it to any of them on some/all turns due to, for example, running low on CPs.

At least with something like a Leman Russ you can make a reasonable assumption that it will be firing its main weapon twice each turn.

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying that units with double-move or double-fight abilities necessarily are appropriately costed, just that it's a lot easier to try and balance them than it is units who can get those abilities based on completely external factors like Stratagems.)

We Agree then. Those abilties are equally problematic if not more problematic than a reroll all hits aura. It is a magnify damage by 2 ability - which damage can already be multiplied many times before that from stratagems and abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keramory wrote:
I'm happy that primaris are staying at 2 wounds as apparently the points gap between tacticals and primaris is closing. Primaris marines are very slightly more durable then their OG brothers, not twice or a third as much. It wouldn't make sense a regular Primaris marine has as many wounds as a Terminator or the Custodes.

Also very happy with the Hellblaster changes where every weapon feels a bit more different now. I don't miss the old days of Hellblasters being the ONLY Primaris anti-tank but it sucks I never have a reason to bring them anymore. Hopefully now I can

Being twice the size confirs very little as in not at all to their durability...it's a dumb attempt by GW to get rid of their stocks of models they will never make again.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Is not that the exact same image posted earlier in the thread, but inexplicably not hidden by spoiler tags so now it takes forever to load?

Ah, apologies, I did a quick skim of the other page looking for the image or a spoiler tag of the datasheet, next time I'll do more reading

The Newman wrote:

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
This Hellblaster datasheet has been doing the rounds on Reddit, I assume it's real unlike the Carnifex.

Three shot Assault plasma gun. Gonna be some salt right there.

The Heavy going to D2 makes sense though.

No wounding T4 on 2s and an increased risk of overheat, however.

I'm just glad GW has finally realized that the major problem with the game is that stuff didn't die fast enough and that what we really needed was for imperium guns to be more deadly.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm just glad GW has finally realized that the major problem with the game is that stuff didn't die fast enough and that what we really needed was for imperium guns to be more deadly.

Well it's one way to make sure their Games of 9th are faster than games of 8th prediction is correct, bring a marine list and you table your opponents before they can score a single VP.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm just glad GW has finally realized that the major problem with the game is that stuff didn't die fast enough and that what we really needed was for imperium guns to be more deadly.

It was frankly getting embarrassing. Late 8th ed. gameplay was basically tag in the woods, everyone running around laughing and giggling until someone tripped and hurt themselves and the moms had to break it up.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Interesting that Primaris are staying 2 wounds. Makes sense to prevent the natural creep that would impose, but it did diminish their value. A superior creation that results in... 1 more attack. Weee.

Depending on the points I could see myself bringing hellblasters again and probably the assault version to counter all the marines out there or the heavy for some anti tank perhaps. The assault are at super high risk of blowing up and dying though so there is that to consider.

The new rules say that plasma Only kills on Unmodified rolls of 1. So your only issue with assault ones is hitting on 4s.
My opinion is that they are stupidly good. With DA that’s a 15 shots for 5 guys at 3 damage. The perfect infantry killer, Including terminators and custodes.

ERJAK wrote:
So...the guns these guys are toting around are a lot better now, across the board for both factions.

That's not...great for a game as lethal as 40k.

There's a point where increased lethality stops being meaningful. My opponent's army getting a 20% boost in firepower doesn't acually change anything if I'm already getting tabled turn one.

Hmm I wonder if disgustingly resiliant will stay at 5+++/function as a rule with two wound DG and three wound blightlords. Maybe they will make it into an AP negating rule or a better save..

This is brilliant. They can garuntee sales because we wanna know the new darn rules XD does anyone know if chaos got repackaged with updated rules as well?

The upgrade to hellblasters is no surprise; they werent used competitively. However, it wasnt their offence that needed a buff. They were just too expensive points-wise.

GW obviously wants them to completely take over the devestator squads roll though by making them more deadly.

They cant fit in drop pods though, so their new points cost should be just a bit cheaper than 5 grav devestators/w a pod to be balanced.

And yet still nothing regarding Sternguard or Devastators (we need Grav Cannon stats dammit).

 Khorzain wrote:
New Hellblaster instruction sheet:

Spoiler:

Interesting update on the Hellblaster Plasma weapons.

I have to wonder about the lack of Overcharge stats on the Plasma weapons we have seen so far. I can think of a few possible reasons it is missing:
1. To avoid it being used all the time when you only have the simplified datasheet available since it lacks special rules
2. It's part of the special rule. Overcharge causes +1 damage, but you die on a natural roll of 1
3. It's now a stratagem
4. It's just plain gone

I can actually see it as a stratagem like the Dark Angels one (which I'm sure will disappear in the new codex/supplement). Overcharging is supposed to be special, but it just seems to be thing that people do all the freaking time. I could see GW going a far as to putting the die (or take MW on a natural roll of 1) as standard on all Plasma and have an Overcharged Plasma Stratagem that gives all the Plasma weapons the unit +1 damage for the phase/shooting attack.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The upgrade to hellblasters is no surprise; they werent used competitively. However, it wasnt their offence that needed a buff. They were just too expensive points-wise.

GW obviously wants them to completely take over the devestator squads roll though by making them more deadly.

They cant fit in drop pods though, so their new points cost should be just a bit cheaper than 5 grav devestators/w a pod to be balanced.

Dropping their points or buffing their weapons has the same net effect. They become more useful and effective. Only an increase to wounds or armor would have made a different impact on their usability without increasing damage output.