Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Some weird thing I just noticed in the updated Power Levels: IG can still take Crusaders in units of up to ten, contrary to sisters that are limited to 6. I don't know if that is important but nice to know.
Especially since they don't take up slots if a priest is present so you could take 30 crusaders + a priest in a single elite
slot

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Personally, I think Hellhounds and Punisher Tanks [well, non-blast Leman Russ Tanks in general] will be pretty good going forward, and maybe if the Multimelta buff goes out widely, the Devildog as well. A flame tank or non-blast Russ tank can rush up the board, burn people, and charge them if they're on an objective or something. Once in melee, it's effectively immune to anyone else who would want to shoot at it but will make mincemeat of whoever it's in with next turn, so they either have to fall back off the objective so they can shoot the tank, or let the tank be to kill them.

Three Punisher TCs with nu-MM sponsons blitzkrieging is definitely going to see play if/when the MM changes go system-wide.

A Chimera with 2x Heavy Flamers doesn't break the bank and is fairly dangerous, especially if playing Catachan.

It's probably better off used in an offensive role though, like going for the middle objectives, while a handful of infantrysquads secure the objectives in your own deployment zone.

don't forget the track guards. They are only 5 points now and make the Flamerchimera (Flamere? Chimflamer?) undegradable.

Preword - before I wrote this post, I was against the idea of punisher TC's.. But looking at what they do, especially with the new MM's, its intriguing.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Personally, I think Hellhounds and Punisher Tanks [well, non-blast Leman Russ Tanks in general] will be pretty good going forward, and maybe if the Multimelta buff goes out widely, the Devildog as well. A flame tank or non-blast Russ tank can rush up the board, burn people, and charge them if they're on an objective or something. Once in melee, it's effectively immune to anyone else who would want to shoot at it but will make mincemeat of whoever it's in with next turn, so they either have to fall back off the objective so they can shoot the tank, or let the tank be to kill them.

Three Punisher TCs with nu-MM sponsons blitzkrieging is definitely going to see play if/when the MM changes go system-wide.

What does a punisher with MM's actually do?

In melee a TC with a punisher & MM sponsons with orders & weapon expert;

MEQ: Main gun will do 8 MEQ wounds & the sponsons are likely to kill another 2 MEQ models (1-3W). That's 6-10 MEQ models, depending on wounds-per-model.

T7 3+ (Vehicle): The main gun will do 4 wounds, the sponsons will do 8-9 wounds.

What this means... The tank commander can reliably shoot off non-hardened units - That's good. But with a slow movement, you won't be in a position to dictate terms and you run the very real risk of getting tagged by a cheap throwaway unit.. or degraded by the previous melee phase to the point where you're already neutered.

I think that's the real risk. Having your 265pt+ vehicle tagged by much cheaper unit, denying you a shooting phase/s.

But... How much more useful is the demolisher cannon (or others), in terms of point saving and damage output against the turret weapon having zero output when stuck in melee.

It is an interesting conundrum. Personally I'm sticking with the idea to have my big tanks avoid being stuck in melee in the first place & synergising gunnery experts with demolishers & hellhounds (which love being close and personal!).

 Pyroalchi wrote:
don't forget the track guards. They are only 5 points now and make the Flamerchimera (Flamere? Chimflamer?) undegradable.

I think you'll find its leaf blower!

Razerous wrote:

It is an interesting conundrum. Personally I'm sticking with the idea to have my big tanks avoid being stuck in melee in the first place & synergising gunnery experts with demolishers & hellhounds (which love being close and personal!).

Here's the thing, this loadout doesnt *require* you to charge. But that charge is a tool that it can use without sacrificing its output if deployed smartly. Its a mid to close range priority target that can use aggressive charges (and boosts from things like Tallarn orders) to get up close and personal in precisely the wrong places, while also supporting units like Hellhounds who also want to get (nearly) stuck in.

Also depending on how common and effective infantry based meltaweapons become (looking at you, Eradicators) I think vehicles and especially non-blast tanks are well advised to charge those. If let's say a Punisher is confronted by a unit of Eradicators it's really worth it to charge, so that they cannot shoot him. Either they stay in CC and only shoot with pistols and fight with a weak melee or they fall back and cannot shoot at all.

If they are still in CC in the next IG turn firing all weapons at them is not really a waste of firepower, it's a 120 point unit after all. One that could well be killed by a Punisher + hull and sponson weapons.


Edit: I'm well aware that they can fall back to open up the Leman Russ to fire from their army, but if you manage to charge what the Space Marine player brought as anti tank, than it doesn't matter so much, does it?

Problem being, gaurd armor is really vulnerbale to a character in the second row holding a thunderhammer or similar, who then intervenes and changes all the maths.

I don't think melee with marines is a safe place ot hide.

I am now on the fence with the punisher / MM sponsons (the bigger better ones.. I mean they are 25pts each!)

But range is valuable, we can get 30"-48"-72" range weapons with ease.

Oh man... 40 shots . I both loved and hated rolling that many dice when I last tried.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Problem being, gaurd armor is really vulnerbale to a character in the second row holding a thunderhammer or similar, who then intervenes and changes all the maths.

I don't think melee with marines is a safe place ot hide.

I definitely agree with this. I rarely had a tank just get tagged in 8th, if it was touched it was dead, especially against marines.

It's not the mainline squads obviously, but the characters. If our tanks had invulns or something, sure it could work, but as is you're just making the charge easier for the character. Especially since the tank is going to do zero damage on the charge, and you're waiting till your next turn to actually fight in a useful manner. That's two melee phases and a shooting phase the opponent has to deal with the tank. If anything you're helping him.

I can see it having uses in certain scenarios, but if I was going to charge stuff with tanks it'd be hellhounds, especially Artemis ones. That way win or lose on the charge, you're going to do some damage most likely, and they really scare characters off of getting piled in.

You clearly elaborated the point I had failed to adequately convey, thanks!

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Some weird thing I just noticed in the updated Power Levels: IG can still take Crusaders in units of up to ten, contrary to sisters that are limited to 6. I don't know if that is important but nice to know.
Especially since they don't take up slots if a priest is present so you could take 30 crusaders + a priest in a single elite
slot

Just a single squad of 10 for 200 points makes an amazing Psychic Barrier target.

30 T3 wounds with a 2+ invul is a very decent objective holder. Can even heal themselves.

Can fight most basic troops in melee too.

@ charging tanks: Your arguments against the idea convinced me, thanks. I'll file it under "very very situational".

@ Crusaders: Pardon me if this question is stupid because it was already adressed in some FAQ: but if we should still use the Astra Militarum datasheet for Crusaders as Dysartes mentioned and the PL values in the FAQ indicate, does that mean we still use the old acts of fate and Crusaders still take a seperate elite slot even when a Priest is present?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Problem being, gaurd armor is really vulnerbale to a character in the second row holding a thunderhammer or similar, who then intervenes and changes all the maths.

I don't think melee with marines is a safe place ot hide.

I definitely agree with this. I rarely had a tank just get tagged in 8th, if it was touched it was dead, especially against marines.

It's not the mainline squads obviously, but the characters. If our tanks had invulns or something, sure it could work, but as is you're just making the charge easier for the character. Especially since the tank is going to do zero damage on the charge, and you're waiting till your next turn to actually fight in a useful manner. That's two melee phases and a shooting phase the opponent has to deal with the tank. If anything you're helping him.

I can see it having uses in certain scenarios, but if I was going to charge stuff with tanks it'd be hellhounds, especially Artemis ones. That way win or lose on the charge, you're going to do some damage most likely, and they really scare characters off of getting piled in.

Prime use for charging would be those eradicators coming from strategic reserve. Those don't neccessarily have character bodyguard tagging alone being instead cheap suicide squad. Come in, pop something, if you get 2nd round bonus.

One other thing I'm currently pondering over if it might be worth it: the Manticore Battery (175 points with missiles) is still there (in points as well as PL). As a reminder: it comes with 4 x D6 9/-3/dD6 missiles that it can fire all at once (contrary to the normal Manticore). Also now we can put these things into deep strike and they don't suffer -1 to hit for "moving" from DS any more.

Each battery causes 13.61 wounds to a T8 3+ target (10.89 if it has a 5++, 8.17 if it has a 4++)
With Catachan/Gunnery Experts that goes to 16.53/13.22/9.92 damage
It can also be increased by Harker/Yarrick or Stratagems like Overlapping fields of fire, or WL trait Old Grudges.

Sure they cannot do anything afterwards except standing in the way (which might still be useful), but one volley might very well buy back its points (two should reliably down a Banebladevariant that costs more)
Of course the normal Manticore can be buffed by Support Aces and Strategems etc. but it is not that easy to get all 4 shots out at full BS. And the Batteries are kind of "fire and forget"

As you said, manticores can take full payload. Plus you have to worry about FW stuff just getting crazy point increases, or disappearing.

I'm actually getting quite attached to a pair of full payload manticores. Was reading about the possible 3w terminators change earlier. If that becomes meta, then the manticores will just rip through them.

Manticore batteries don't ignore LOS. Full Payload Codex Manticores though will be super juicy. I think it's going to be worth even taking two and spending a CP for another Tank Ace.

@ FW units getting lost: the point that they really cared for giving it points as well as powerlevel in the last update might at least be an indication, that they will stay a while. The Gorgon heavy Transport had just came back on FW this year I think and was already left out.

Regarding full payload: while you are definitly right, my concern would be that such a Manticore is a huge fire magnet. So it will quite likely only get one Missile off at full BS before degrading and it is not givven that he can fire all over the game. Doing the corresponding math (against T8, 3+/T8, 3+, 5++/T8,3+,4++)
Full Payload Manticore damage per Missile:
BS4+: 4.67/4.67/3.5
BS5+: 3.11/3.11/2.33
BS6+: 1.56/1.56/1.17

Manticore Battery Damage per Missile:
3.40/2.72/2.04

As one migth already see the Manticore has to get of a certain number of shots before it is equal/better than the battery. As in: (let A be shots at BS4+, B at BS5+, C at BS6+ and D any additional shot)
Against T8, 3+: 3xA OR 2xA, 1xB, 1xD OR 1 x A, 3 x B OR 1xA, 1xB, 3 x C
Against T8, 3+, 5++: 2xA 1xD OR 1xA, 2xB OR 1xA, 1xB, 2xC OR 1xA, 4xC
Against T8, 3+, 4++: 3xA OR 2xA, 1xB OR 1xA, 2xB, 1xD OR 1xA, 1xB, 2xC
(I assume that it gets off at least one Missile at full BS)

=> so in any case the full payload Manticore has to be kept alive for at least 3 rounds while being a prime target. The Battery just has to drop, unload and then it doesn't matter anymore if it is killed. It also doesn't need a EDIT: tank ace trait for that

 Trickstick wrote:
As you said, manticores can take full payload. Plus you have to worry about FW stuff just getting crazy point increases, or disappearing.

I'm actually getting quite attached to a pair of full payload manticores. Was reading about the possible 3w terminators change earlier. If that becomes meta, then the manticores will just rip through them.

I'm assuming you mean one full payload manticore and one regular one? My understanding was you couldn't take the same ace twice, but I may be missing something there

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
As you said, manticores can take full payload. Plus you have to worry about FW stuff just getting crazy point increases, or disappearing.

I'm actually getting quite attached to a pair of full payload manticores. Was reading about the possible 3w terminators change earlier. If that becomes meta, then the manticores will just rip through them.

I'm assuming you mean one full payload manticore and one regular one? My understanding was you couldn't take the same ace twice, but I may be missing something there

Unlike WLT, you can take multiple of the same Tank Ace, but on different models.

You're still limited to a maximum of 2 though, 1 as the replacement for the WLT and 1 via the stratagem. "Named characters cannot be given a Tank Ace ability, and no model can have more than one Tank Ace ability." is the restriction.

Can I strategic reserve a loaded up valkyrie, place it on the edge then use the drop chute trait to get the payload on the field, same turn?

What objective secured options do we have for Guard?

Razerous wrote:
What objective secured options do we have for Guard?

As far as I know, it's the same as last edition: Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Tempestus Scions Squads, and, when in a Spearhead Detachment, Leman Russ tanks (not Tank Commanders)

Arcanis161 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What objective secured options do we have for Guard?

As far as I know, it's the same as last edition: Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Tempestus Scions Squads, and, when in a Spearhead Detachment, Leman Russ tanks (not Tank Commanders)

Actually, Tank Commanders do get Obsec in Spearheads. All LEMAN RUSS units get it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What objective secured options do we have for Guard?

As far as I know, it's the same as last edition: Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Tempestus Scions Squads, and, when in a Spearhead Detachment, Leman Russ tanks (not Tank Commanders)

Actually, Tank Commanders do get Obsec in Spearheads. All LEMAN RUSS units get it.

Oh. That could have won me some games last edition. Welp.

On other topics, as we're a CP hungry army, would it be worth bringing more than 1 detachment? Specifically, say I bring a Brigade of Wilderness Survivors and Gunnery Experts, would it be worth it to bring a Battalion of Scions to grab far away objectives or to reinforce contested objectives? Or is it better to invest somewhere else?

I do two detachments but I pick my units for lower cp cost baseline. In any case, there is one obsec trick only gaurd really gets that is worth remembering.
Obsec Secured Recipe (serves 20-30)
3 x 10 man gaurd squads
2 x cp points
2 astropaths
nearby cover .. place your objective with an eye to being able to claim +1 to saves.

1. Move 10 gaurdsmen into the area such that they invest the objective while being in cover.
2. Move 10 gaurdsmen more into the area such that they also blah blah.
3. -1 cp. Weld them into twenty gaurdsmen with a base save of 5+ .. 4+ in cover.
4. nightshroud
5. aegis of the emperor.
6. go to ground -1 cp.

You now have 20 gaurdsmen who are -1 to be hit in your objective, cautiously gaurding 2 astropaths. While only t3, its absolutely maddening to discover that their base 5+ save in cover is 4+ when they go to ground its 3+ and with the aegis of the emperor upon them, its 2+. They can still die, but they will soak a LOT of bolters and stuff.

7. Leftovers. Add a third squad the next round and cast the buffs again. This invests 2 more cp, but depending on what happened, an enemy who didn't expect this may find he can't bring his main forces to bear in time to bring a metric poopy ton of guardsmen with excellent saves down.

The easy recipe for you lazy cooks is "take one squad of 30 wilderness survivor conscripts, buff, repeat." This recipe can't do melee near as well, as it lacks the sargeants' power weapons.

Its a great trick. Doing quick math, 10 marine scouts firing 10 bolters two times each would expect to hit only 10 times, casuing 6 attempts to save (well, 6.67) and killing 1.11 gaurdsmen. A more favorable ratio than gaurd on an objective have any right to expect.

@ Arcanis161: I, personally, think the advantages of a second detachment are well worth the additional CP. While we have a lot of stuff that can be fuelled with CP I (personal opinion) don't think they are as essential as in some other codizes (think IK rotate ion shields and similar).
Also at least in my collection there are too many elite choices even for a Brigade and I don't think the additional CP of not taking a second detachment are worth dropping them (Astropaths for nightshroud/psychic barrier/denies and to ignore cover, Ogryn Bodyguards to keep our squishy characters alive, Bullgryns for countercharge, SWS/Command squads for meltas and plasma, a priest... 8 elite slots are filled pretty fast...)

You can literally buy 8 elite units for under 200 points in ninth edition gaurd, while you can get 1 unit of six aggressors for MORE points than that.

Its no wonder we fill elite slots the way the marines hit things they shoot at.

Apparently weapon updates that appear in the SM codex will apply to other armies that use the same weapons.

Flamers to 12"
Heavy Bolters to D2
Melta to Dd6+2
Multi-Melta to 2 shots
+1S Powerswords
-1AP Astartes Chainswords
Plasma only overheating on a natural 1

Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.

I'm more annoyed they haven't standardised the Crusaders in the AM codex like they promised they would.