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So, incidentally, I totally second what Moustafa said about leman russ vs any kind of hellhound with meltas.
The leman russes can ALSO use a strategem for maximum shots at enemy vehicles, which opens the possibility of firing your demolisher cannon 12 times, and the generic heavy bolter on the front 3, vs the 2,4,or 6 shots the multimelta gets.
On ambush, however, you have already moved full distance by definition, so you are not grindingly advancing out of the board edge, and you will shoot (assuming you strategem it) 6 times with the demolisher and that means you will miss with 3 of them on average. 12 shots with a demolisher threatens to kill a knight, but 3 hits from a demo only threatens to harm one. While I still think that favors the 35 point more expensive leman russ, the leman russ doesn't also explode if that knight gallant desperately steps over and cuts it in half in melee. So ... I can see using both or either in some situations?
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.
Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.
Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.
Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.
Another way to look at is is:
Is being T8 worth 35 points? S10 is pretty worthless outside of the mirror matchup against Guard because literally nobody else of note is bringing any T8 vehicles [after all there's not that many options out there in the first place, knights is basically unable to play the scoring game, and space marines are taking anything but Land Raiders and Repulsors], and buying extra weapons on the Demolisher kicks it's price up really drastically.
A Devil Dog dies and is overkilled by Eradicators. A Demolisher... also takes an average of 12 wounds from an eradicator salvo, more with Master Artisans or support of any kind so also doesn't really survive the Eradicators. A Relic Contemptor sees them the same as each other, so the extra toughness is also wasted there.
On the other hand, a Devil Dog has +2" of movement, so as Tallarnian you can advance into melta range on T1 and get your +2 damage on all 3-5 shots, which is a pretty sizable bump in power beyond the S10.
Both are pretty equally valid, IMO. I might take a Demolisher if I was Catachan or Cadian, but I might take a Devil Dog if I was Tallarnian or Vostroyan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 17:08:57
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.
If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
MrMoustaffa wrote: S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.
If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.
The Devil Dog's +2 damage autokills those T5 W3 models, while a Demolisher fails to kill one and takes a second shot 1/3 of the time. Which actually, combined with the AP, works out to be worse than the strength's improvement.
I think they're pretty solidly sidegrades to each other. I'd pick Demolisher if I'm going to expect it to mostly be driving slow and getting buffs and re-rolling shot output, I'd pick Hellhound if I'm going to have a range extension and/or go fast.
The fact that Armiger Warglaives cost 3CP and 155points is a real mark against them though.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Niiai wrote: I have a GSC question, but that part of the forum is as dead as a necron tomb world where somebody pulled the socked out of the wall.
In short GSC has an amasing power to deepstrike, but something needs to start on the board.
I currently own no brood brothers (the name of imperial guard units in the GSC codex) outside of an old chimera and a heavy weapon team.
How druable are regular guard units, heavy weapon teams or chimeraes for holding hole objective? 50 points for 10 dudes seems quite OK. For 10 point more i can pile on a heavy weapon to make sure they can not just be ignored.
(The IG units in the GSC codex is regular guard infantery, both sentinels, heavy weapon teams and the heavy suport version of the leman russ.)
guard units aren't durable - in cover they're passable, but even T3 with a 3+ save has a fair chance of getting mushed, especially as AP-1 seems to be on the rise.
If you are looking to hold objectives, I recommend the opposite of your approach - try to make it so they can be ignored. Don't go combining a priority target (because it's on an objective) with a priority target (because it has a lascannon), you're just giving the enemy 2 for 1 when they choose to spray some bullets that way. Try to make objective grabbers look weak and no threat, and opponents will have to choose between shooting at the threat and shooting at the objective holder. As soon as you make your pponent have to choose, you give yourself opportunities to exploit poor decisions.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
Some other thing I have been contemplating recently: with the new 2 shot MM is there some argument for MM-Servitors accompanied by a techpriest? As far as I know MM are 20 on an infantry model, so 68 points buys 4 bodies with 2 MM and 4 servo arms + another 35 points for a techpriest to bring them up to WS/BS4+.
So to get a bit extreme lets take 3 units + techpriest for 239 points.
Thats 12 shots, 6 hits, so: 14/22 damage outside/inside melta range against a T7, 3+ model, 9.33/14.33 if it has a 5++ (Armigers for example)
10.5/16.5 damage outside/inside melta range against a T8, 3+ model, 7/11 if it has a 5++ (like Knights)
respectivly 4.87/5 dead T4/W2/3+ models (normal marines)
or 3.7/4 dead T5/W3/3+ models (Gravis)
That does not sound to bad I think. Far from Eradicator broken good, but... when you take the techpriest anyway they can well shoot back 50-75% of their costs in a single shooting phase and might even situational be able to hurt something in CC with their servoarms. And with 4+ and two bodies to spare before you loose MM they are not really flimsier than HWTs.
MrMoustaffa wrote: S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.
If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.
The Devil Dog's +2 damage autokills those T5 W3 models, while a Demolisher fails to kill one and takes a second shot 1/3 of the time. Which actually, combined with the AP, works out to be worse than the strength's improvement.
I think they're pretty solidly sidegrades to each other. I'd pick Demolisher if I'm going to expect it to mostly be driving slow and getting buffs and re-rolling shot output, I'd pick Hellhound if I'm going to have a range extension and/or go fast.
The fact that Armiger Warglaives cost 3CP and 155points is a real mark against them though.
.
I plan on running a retributor squad with 4 MM in a rhino for dedicated anti-tank/ anti- heavy infantry. What I want to provide my enemy is incentive to not shoot that rhino and killing the sisters inside. Thus the devil dog, so the melta buff is just gravy. There is also the splash damage stratagem to reroll wound rolls, which honestly I never consider much because I don’t count on the devil dog to work, just to make my opponent nervous about what it could do. It might do work against large T5 squads as has been pointed out. Seeing as how it is blast now, 1cp to reroll wounds with everyone hugging cover as they should. I also have thought of running my 1 Tank commander as my warlord with grand strategist to draw some fire from the Retributors. I play tallarn, mainly for the ambush stratagem and having the option to ambush in the TC or the devil dog is good game dependent. Since the TC can’t grinding advance from ambush I see that as an advantage to the cheaper and faster devil dog. That said rushing one devil dog into the enemy’s face might draw some fire from the ret’s and let them get their shots off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 21:34:41
Pyroalchi wrote: Some other thing I have been contemplating recently: with the new 2 shot MM is there some argument for MM-Servitors accompanied by a techpriest? As far as I know MM are 20 on an infantry model, so 68 points buys 4 bodies with 2 MM and 4 servo arms + another 35 points for a techpriest to bring them up to WS/BS4+.
So to get a bit extreme lets take 3 units + techpriest for 239 points.
Thats 12 shots, 6 hits, so: 14/22 damage outside/inside melta range against a T7, 3+ model, 9.33/14.33 if it has a 5++ (Armigers for example)
10.5/16.5 damage outside/inside melta range against a T8, 3+ model, 7/11 if it has a 5++ (like Knights)
respectivly 4.87/5 dead T4/W2/3+ models (normal marines)
or 3.7/4 dead T5/W3/3+ models (Gravis)
That does not sound to bad I think. Far from Eradicator broken good, but... when you take the techpriest anyway they can well shoot back 50-75% of their costs in a single shooting phase and might even situational be able to hurt something in CC with their servoarms. And with 4+ and two bodies to spare before you loose MM they are not really flimsier than HWTs.
Not really 4 meltas on a command squad is the same number of melta shots at the same points but on a 3+ platform that benefits from regiment and orders and at identical points
That's all true -- but there is also a value to needing antitank to remove something. The scions command squad is also range limited, so for example, you have trouble dropping it next to aggressor marines (they auspex you to death before oyu fire.) Multimelta can whack away from 13 inches, if need be, quite safe from that effect, and to kill the tank at t7/11W is a lot harder than t3/4x1W (with 4+ rather than 3+ saves.)
Its harder to screen the tank out, you can bring in from board edge and fire 23.9 inches or so, while careful screening and a few "no deepstrikers in 12 inches" as your front line can leave a melta scions squad 1000 percent useless on the drop.
Pyroalchi wrote: Some other thing I have been contemplating recently: with the new 2 shot MM is there some argument for MM-Servitors accompanied by a techpriest? As far as I know MM are 20 on an infantry model, so 68 points buys 4 bodies with 2 MM and 4 servo arms + another 35 points for a techpriest to bring them up to WS/BS4+.
So to get a bit extreme lets take 3 units + techpriest for 239 points.
Thats 12 shots, 6 hits, so: 14/22 damage outside/inside melta range against a T7, 3+ model, 9.33/14.33 if it has a 5++ (Armigers for example)
10.5/16.5 damage outside/inside melta range against a T8, 3+ model, 7/11 if it has a 5++ (like Knights)
respectivly 4.87/5 dead T4/W2/3+ models (normal marines)
or 3.7/4 dead T5/W3/3+ models (Gravis)
That does not sound to bad I think. Far from Eradicator broken good, but... when you take the techpriest anyway they can well shoot back 50-75% of their costs in a single shooting phase and might even situational be able to hurt something in CC with their servoarms. And with 4+ and two bodies to spare before you loose MM they are not really flimsier than HWTs.
Not really 4 meltas on a command squad is the same number of melta shots at the same points but on a 3+ platform that benefits from regiment and orders and at identical points
But the servitors have twice the range, a 4+save and only start loosing firepower after two losses also if you take Melters there your CS are free to take Plasma (or even more Melters) instead
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 05:17:20
When those losses are t3 1w models the protection is almost non existent and your deploying by ds so range doesn't matter too much. Either unit is getting one shot
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 14:05:26
Yeah, I own two and they aren't easy to use because of the radius (1d6) and the fact they only move 10". However now in 9th they are better to my opinion if you play them in strategic reserves as the ennemy cannot ignore them. Never tried them in a zone mortalis though, I wish I had. Pretty easy to hide. But, imagine what you could bring for the same 120pts as those two auto destructive cyclopes...
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.
Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.
Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.
Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.
Another way to look at is is:
Is being T8 worth 35 points? S10 is pretty worthless outside of the mirror matchup against Guard because literally nobody else of note is bringing any T8 vehicles [after all there's not that many options out there in the first place, knights is basically unable to play the scoring game, and space marines are taking anything but Land Raiders and Repulsors], and buying extra weapons on the Demolisher kicks it's price up really drastically.
A Devil Dog dies and is overkilled by Eradicators. A Demolisher... also takes an average of 12 wounds from an eradicator salvo, more with Master Artisans or support of any kind so also doesn't really survive the Eradicators. A Relic Contemptor sees them the same as each other, so the extra toughness is also wasted there.
On the other hand, a Devil Dog has +2" of movement, so as Tallarnian you can advance into melta range on T1 and get your +2 damage on all 3-5 shots, which is a pretty sizable bump in power beyond the S10.
Both are pretty equally valid, IMO. I might take a Demolisher if I was Catachan or Cadian, but I might take a Devil Dog if I was Tallarnian or Vostroyan.
What +2 movement ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 22:00:20
I was just browsing a bit through the points changes and noticed something that I personally found interesting (note that I'm not stating it's competetive at all or something):
While the Vengane Weapons Battery Fortification went up 8 points, the Battlecannon on this thing seems to have gone down to 20 it seems. So 108 points gets you a BS5+ Battlecannon on a T8,W10,3+ platform that does not degrade. So average 108/(7 shots x 1/3 hit chance) = 46,3 points per hit
A LRBT comes down to minimum 165 which would be 165/(7/2)= 47.1 points per hit, and worse ratio as soon as he takes damage
A Tank commander comes with a minimum 190 points for 190/(7*2/3)= 40.7 points per hit
Of course, I know the LRBTs also have a Bolter, the option to take sponsons, can be ordered and profit from regimental doctrines. And the Vengance Batteries must target the closest enemy. On the other hand when playing for example against Marines there are few targets that would not be a good target for a Battlecanon as almost everything has at least 2 wounds and nothing is cheap chaff where it is wasted. And 1 CP for the Fortification network does not sound too bad.
Again: I know LRBTs are better, especially with regimental boni and orders etc. But it might still be of interest for one or the other.
MrMoustaffa wrote: S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.
If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.
The Devil Dog's +2 damage autokills those T5 W3 models, while a Demolisher fails to kill one and takes a second shot 1/3 of the time. Which actually, combined with the AP, works out to be worse than the strength's improvement.
I think they're pretty solidly sidegrades to each other. I'd pick Demolisher if I'm going to expect it to mostly be driving slow and getting buffs and re-rolling shot output, I'd pick Hellhound if I'm going to have a range extension and/or go fast.
The fact that Armiger Warglaives cost 3CP and 155points is a real mark against them though.
.
I plan on running a retributor squad with 4 MM in a rhino for dedicated anti-tank/ anti- heavy infantry. What I want to provide my enemy is incentive to not shoot that rhino and killing the sisters inside. Thus the devil dog, so the melta buff is just gravy. There is also the splash damage stratagem to reroll wound rolls, which honestly I never consider much because I don’t count on the devil dog to work, just to make my opponent nervous about what it could do. It might do work against large T5 squads as has been pointed out. Seeing as how it is blast now, 1cp to reroll wounds with everyone hugging cover as they should. I also have thought of running my 1 Tank commander as my warlord with grand strategist to draw some fire from the Retributors. I play tallarn, mainly for the ambush stratagem and having the option to ambush in the TC or the devil dog is good game dependent. Since the TC can’t grinding advance from ambush I see that as an advantage to the cheaper and faster devil dog. That said rushing one devil dog into the enemy’s face might draw some fire from the ret’s and let them get their shots off.
So, your one squad of Rets isn't that valuable that you want to distraction carnifex for them with your warlord command tank, IMO.
Also, like, in Sisters, you have a lot of stuff that's going to warrant attention, and pretty much arguably you'd want the Rets to take fire over your Repentia boxes or something.
That said, you can put the Rets into Strategic Reserve, and bring them on on outflank and do your best Eradicator impression.
Yeah, I own two and they aren't easy to use because of the radius (1d6) and the fact they only move 10". However now in 9th they are better to my opinion if you play them in strategic reserves as the ennemy cannot ignore them. Never tried them in a zone mortalis though, I wish I had. Pretty easy to hide. But, imagine what you could bring for the same 120pts as those two auto destructive cyclopes...
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.
Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.
Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.
Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.
Another way to look at is is:
Is being T8 worth 35 points? S10 is pretty worthless outside of the mirror matchup against Guard because literally nobody else of note is bringing any T8 vehicles [after all there's not that many options out there in the first place, knights is basically unable to play the scoring game, and space marines are taking anything but Land Raiders and Repulsors], and buying extra weapons on the Demolisher kicks it's price up really drastically.
A Devil Dog dies and is overkilled by Eradicators. A Demolisher... also takes an average of 12 wounds from an eradicator salvo, more with Master Artisans or support of any kind so also doesn't really survive the Eradicators. A Relic Contemptor sees them the same as each other, so the extra toughness is also wasted there.
On the other hand, a Devil Dog has +2" of movement, so as Tallarnian you can advance into melta range on T1 and get your +2 damage on all 3-5 shots, which is a pretty sizable bump in power beyond the S10.
Both are pretty equally valid, IMO. I might take a Demolisher if I was Catachan or Cadian, but I might take a Devil Dog if I was Tallarnian or Vostroyan.
What +2 movement ?
As pointed out, Devil Dogs have a 12" movement, which if Tallarn becomes 12+1d6" movement, which is decent ability to get Melta on a target.
A Demolisher threatens Grinding Advance out to 29", a Devil Dog threatens Melta out to 24+d6" [average about the same]
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 05:32:25
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
As you already found what I have been missing on the Battlecannon Vengance battery another thing from Mathhammering, just so that you might point out if I miss something crucial:
Vengance weapons batteries with Quad Icarus Lascannon (168 points) vs. Hydra (110 points) in the AA role.
I mathammered a bit against various profiles. The numbers for the W1 units is # of models killed, the others are damage done.
Spoiler:
Hydra Quad Icarus Lascannon
Gargoyle (3/1/6+) 4,44 1,67
Seraphim (3/1/3+) 2,96 1,67
Battlesuit (5/5/3+) 4,74 4,67
Dakkajet /6/12/4+, hard to hit) 7,41 6,22
Valkyrie (7/14/3+, hard to hit) 4,44 6,22
Repulsor (8/16/3+) 1,19 4,67
Or to get an impression of damage/cost both values normed to 100 points of Hydra/Quad Lascannon
Spoiler:
Hydra Quad Icarus Lascannon
Gargoyle (3/1/6+) 4,04 0,99
Seraphim (3/1/3+) 2,69 0,99
Battlesuit (5/5/3+) 4,31 2,78
Dakkajet /6/12/4+, hard to hit) 6,73 3,70
Valkyrie (7/14/3+, hard to hit) 4,04 3,70
Repulsor (8/16/3+) 1,08 2,78
Edit: ignore this part "So from the looks of it, the Vengance Battery is better against anything with multiple wounds, toughness above 3 and good saves and especially good against the T7 and T8 flyers of Guard and Marines as well as the Hovertanks of SM." The "must target closest enemy" should be less of a problem with flyers, it does not degrade and is 2 points tougher than the Hydra, which makes it harder against S4,S7 and S8 shooting which is pretty common. 96'' range should make "immobile" matter less and it can still shoot up the closest aircraft, even if someone is within 1'', which the Hydra cannot do.
So again I'm not claiming that this is super duper powerful, but am I missing something elementary when considering that for some AA firepower?
Edit: sorry, miscalculated and corrected it, The Hydra is still better against anything except the repulsor point for point, as long as it is not bracketed. So I guess I answered it myself.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 07:52:30
Does anyone run an Inquisitor with your Guard? Do you have any pros or cons to bringing one along?
I have always wanted to make an Inquisitor, and brining him and three or four squads of Scions to act as his retinue might be cool to throw in with my, otherwise, pure tank list I plan to create.
I run a malleus inquisitor for the psyker support, for his excellent actual abilities. Mine usually has one of 2 loadouts. el cheapo. absolute minimum cost of points for a generic, t3 and s3 psyker with a 4+ save. Chainsword and lastpistol. and 1 cp, which upgrades him to be able to cast, know, and deny an extra spell, and gives him a relic (I usually use the -1 to be wounded relic, which makes him effectively t4, and hard to snipe). This is for pure psy power, and he gets castigate (which can sort of snip with mortal wounds) and dominate (which is just fun, trust me, when someone brings his eradicator with its shoot 2 times 2 meltas at the same target and you designate that to be his own unit. Mr. Mahrine multimelta eradicator... can actually shoot himself, I think, if all 4 hit, and the other 2 marines die to the 2+ wounds they recieve with the ap-4 shots coming in. Pull that off one time, and you make twice his points back with 1 spell.) That's awesome.
el more expensivo. Throw a combimelta on him and give him psychic pursuit and castigate. This combo is made to pair with a malstrom spell from someone else, and with the sniper commisar relic bolt pistol (and possibly even the scion bolt relic pistol that iotan gorgones can carry) to do massive damage to rear echelon characters. As long as by rear echelon, you mean 12 inches.
Either guy can in a pinch just castigate and smite, as well. Which is a good deal in an army where smite + malstrom is the closest equivalent, and to reliably do those two, you need a primaris psyker and an astropath (so its a few points more than el cheapo and a few less than el expensivo.
I usually name him "charley martel" of course, cause he is a malleus. (There would be more to the pun if he had an actual thunderhammer, but that's crazy pricey.)
Pros. Cheap psyker addition with a variety of powers that overlap in function some gaurd damage powers, and broaden the palette of utility powers. Free high morale in his area. A nice combimelta that can snipe. Cons. Some folk don't want to run more characters and especially not more psykers, as you end up with people scoring 15/15 for abhor the witch and 15/15 for 3 psykers and 2 gaurd officers dead, which are both VERY VERY easy to have happen if you carry that many. Even adding in protection doesn't protect well, as the ogryn bodygaurd is itself a 3 point loss to your character assasination points when the enemy kills it trying to kill your psyker gaurd folk.
If you rather not put him into the army as a loner, a small inquisitor detachment COULD be run like this. Its suboptimal, though. inquisitor (again I like malleus) (-1 cp for extra psyker power (which is itself a trait you can add warlord style) and a freebie relic. 1 acolyte as a character 1 acolye as a character 6 acolytes as plasma totin assasination guys whom you can give psychic pursuit to, and they can then snipe with 6 plasma guns. Not shabby.
That inquisitor would have his own wounds to lose, AND the wounds of his 8 acolytes, basically, so he has a couple t3 very easy to kill shield drones, but he is still hard to kill and the drones are very expensive for what you get out of them. I believe character acolytes cost a bit more but have 3wound each, and I don't know if they act as bodygaurd drones like the plasma guys would. Magazine in other room syndrome ... and me too lazy to fetch.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 23:22:18
Dukeofstuff wrote: I run a malleus inquisitor for the psyker support, for his excellent actual abilities. Mine usually has one of 2 loadouts.
el cheapo. absolute minimum cost of points for a generic, t3 and s3 psyker with a 4+ save. Chainsword and lastpistol. and 1 cp, which upgrades him to be able to cast, know, and deny an extra spell, and gives him a relic (I usually use the -1 to be wounded relic, which makes him effectively t4, and hard to snipe). This is for pure psy power, and he gets castigate (which can sort of snip with mortal wounds) and dominate (which is just fun, trust me, when someone brings his eradicator with its shoot 2 times 2 meltas at the same target and you designate that to be his own unit. Mr. Mahrine multimelta eradicator... can actually shoot himself, I think, if all 4 hit, and the other 2 marines die to the 2+ wounds they recieve with the ap-4 shots coming in. Pull that off one time, and you make twice his points back with 1 spell.)
That's awesome.
el more expensivo. Throw a combimelta on him and give him psychic pursuit and castigate. This combo is made to pair with a malstrom spell from someone else, and with the sniper commisar relic bolt pistol (and possibly even the scion bolt relic pistol that iotan gorgones can carry) to do massive damage to rear echelon characters. As long as by rear echelon, you mean 12 inches.
Either guy can in a pinch just castigate and smite, as well. Which is a good deal in an army where smite + malstrom is the closest equivalent, and to reliably do those two, you need a primaris psyker and an astropath (so its a few points more than el cheapo and a few less than el expensivo.
I usually name him "charley martel" of course, cause he is a malleus. (There would be more to the pun if he had an actual thunderhammer, but that's crazy pricey.)
Pros. Cheap psyker addition with a variety of powers that overlap in function some gaurd damage powers, and broaden the palette of utility powers. Free high morale in his area. A nice combimelta that can snipe.
Cons. Some folk don't want to run more characters and especially not more psykers, as you end up with people scoring 15/15 for abhor the witch and 15/15 for 3 psykers and 2 gaurd officers dead, which are both VERY VERY easy to have happen if you carry that many. Even adding in protection doesn't protect well, as the ogryn bodygaurd is itself a 3 point loss to your character assasination points when the enemy kills it trying to kill your psyker gaurd folk.
If you rather not put him into the army as a loner, a small inquisitor detachment COULD be run like this. Its suboptimal, though.
inquisitor (again I like malleus) (-1 cp for extra psyker power (which is itself a trait you can add warlord style) and a freebie relic.
1 acolyte as a character
1 acolye as a character
6 acolytes as plasma totin assasination guys whom you can give psychic pursuit to, and they can then snipe with 6 plasma guns. Not shabby.
That inquisitor would have his own wounds to lose, AND the wounds of his 8 acolytes, basically, so he has a couple t3 very easy to kill shield drones, but he is still hard to kill and the drones are very expensive for what you get out of them. I believe character acolytes cost a bit more but have 3wound each, and I don't know if they act as bodygaurd drones like the plasma guys would. Magazine in other room syndrome ... and me too lazy to fetch.
Thank you! That was quite informative. The psker presence would be very useful.
One nice trick for inquisitors is that 5+ invuln save they can give infantry. If you're feeling lucky, you can stick that and pyschic barrier on a unit of purely slabshields to effectively have the invuln shield and the slabshield on each model at the same time. Of course it can be easily shut down with denial, so it's a bit risky.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
This question might sound a bit odd, but I thought here might be the closest place for this question:
I'm considering for modelling reasons to build some Miasman Redcowls (the dudes from the Codex book with the flamer affinity). I would prefer them to be all (heavy) flamers without the need for normal lasguns, which units that are legal for imperial guard can do that and still have a baseline human statline?
So far I came up with (Scion) Command Squads, DKOK heavy weapons squads and theoretically Inquisition Acolytes.
Regarding the latter: if I put a bunch of flamer acolytes and some DKOK Heavy flamer squads in a detachment, does anything negative happen? As far as I know DKOK have no regimental doctrine that would be lost from a "non pure detachment" and as long as I still stick to the FOC I should still be battleforged, right?
Edit: or are there any other units that can be all flamers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/14 11:27:01
Pyroalchi wrote: This question might sound a bit odd, but I thought here might be the closest place for this question:
I'm considering for modelling reasons to build some Miasman Redcowls (the dudes from the Codex book with the flamer affinity). I would prefer them to be all (heavy) flamers without the need for normal lasguns, which units that are legal for imperial guard can do that and still have a baseline human statline?
So far I came up with (Scion) Command Squads, DKOK heavy weapons squads and theoretically Inquisition Acolytes.
Regarding the latter: if I put a bunch of flamer acolytes and some DKOK Heavy flamer squads in a detachment, does anything negative happen? As far as I know DKOK have no regimental doctrine that would be lost from a "non pure detachment" and as long as I still stick to the FOC I should still be battleforged, right?
Edit: or are there any other units that can be all flamers?
I cannot answer your question about which units can take all flamers, but adding Inquisition forces to an Imperial detachment does not break its doctrines or chapter tactics or anything like that.
I wanted to put servitors and an enginseer in my army. Since they have the <forgeworld> keyword does that mean they benefit from any of the adeptus mechanicus special rules? An example would be can I use stratagems on them from the mechanicus book?
I note that there is a sisters heavy support thing, sort of analogous to a devastator squad, the name I am forgetting, that can take all multimelta or all heavy flamer. That's a possibility for you -- you could sneak in a sisters detachment of 3 of them, and they ARE purely human, but you could sneak them in as valourous hearts with a sister behind them (the singer that grants -1 extra ap ignore) and thus give them iggy 1 and 2 ap. So they would be really hard to shift units and give your army a flamer group in the center of..
cannoness (with combiflamer)
3 x 3 squads retributors (superior with combiflamer, 4x retributors with heavy flamer)
imagifier (for -1 AND -2 ignore)
Sure, you don't get a total sistes army, but you can actually if you wanted to load these flamer gals into 3 flamer tanks, for a ground mobile rocking inferno of flamers. While they aRE human statline, the sisters get the benefit of power armor saves!
That's potentially just from the sisters 4d6 normal flamer hits, 12d6 heavy flamer hits (+4 range? is that really 16 inch flamers) and 6d6 immolator turret flamer hits.
I think that gets you started really solidly, too, because you are in transports .. then you can be in cover .. AND ignore a LOT of ap while the enemy tries to pop you and you fail most of your saves only on a 2+. For the maximal humor, include a hospitaler sister as well, just to keep bringing them back.
Editor's note. DOS means well, but he confesses he is a gaurd player who has dabbled in sistes only theoretically as yet and hasn't glued more than 3 squads together. Doesn't own any of these retributioners and only one immolator tank/transport. But thinks this would be a cool themeatic concept with perhaps some resilience.
So, New topic? I am invited -- I own a ticket now -- to a GT tournament in 2 weeks. My usual army is (as many of you know) something like this in scions/psykers and usually a single lonely manticore in the corner.
Suggestions are VERY welcome. I have 2 weeks to paint up to snuff. My likely army will get posted in the army list (feel free to chime in on any strength or weakness you see) in a few minutes. I haven't gotten many competitive games in in nine and I usually avoid GT tournaments (I play in small tournaments but never a GT in my life, their longer days mean I can't usually get off work. So I want to do as well as I can, of course, lest the other people I know all laugh at me.)
~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
830 
