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All valid and relatedly playstyle variables matter a great deal. IF I brought a cadian superheavy, you can bet a cadian brigade beside it would be available to put the scratch on any target I wanted -- including command squads and veterans with bs3+, full rerolls, and excellent weapons. With manticores. And even with plasma and missle launchers in the normal gaurd squads, which is my go to cadian shooting match. Ah, eighth edition!

I am not actually sure -- I think tallarn leman russes (if they happen to be one tank commander) can self order to move six inches after coming in from off board, but I am not sure.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
n to be one tank commander) can self order to move six inches after coming in from off board, but I am not sure.

They cannot. It was FAQed that one cannot move after coming from reserve for any reason (but can charge afterwards) unless specifically saying that one can (e.g. Sly Marbo's rules or GSC's stratagem Perfect Ambush)

Small note on deepstriking a Baneblade: The Tallarn Ambush Stratagem allows to place the vehicle within 7'' of the table edge (instead of 6''). I'm not sure if that is enough for a Baneblade with sponsons, but it's something.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Small note on deepstriking a Baneblade: The Tallarn Ambush Stratagem allows to place the vehicle within 7'' of the table edge (instead of 6''). I'm not sure if that is enough for a Baneblade with sponsons, but it's something.

It is enough. I think that might have been the whole point of making it 7 instead on 6 inch

How does an all-tank list sound for this edition? I am not aiming for it to be super competitive or anything, but I have always wanted an Imperial Guard list that only had tanks.

I threw together a 2000 point list on BattleScribe just to see what it would look like. It would be something like this:

Catachan Outrider
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Fast Attack - Hellhound w/ track guards and flamers x3
Heavy Support Basilisk - x3

Valhallan Spearhead
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Heavy Support - Punisher, Demolisher, Battle Tank x2

@ Mud Turkey 13: while it sounds fun I'm currently a bit pessimistic for all vehicle lists, as the changes to Meltaweapons that seem to come with the SM Codex are really really powerful. Might be that there is something in there that balances it out, but with SM armies potentially able to bring 3 x 6 eradicators with doubletab and a 2 shot Multimelta/3dudes and at least the other imperial factions also getting 2 shot Multimeltas and better damage within Melta range, vehicles without really good screening seem awfully vulnerable

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
How does an all-tank list sound for this edition? I am not aiming for it to be super competitive or anything, but I have always wanted an Imperial Guard list that only had tanks.

I threw together a 2000 point list on BattleScribe just to see what it would look like. It would be something like this:

Catachan Outrider
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Fast Attack - Hellhound w/ track guards and flamers x3
Heavy Support Basilisk - x3

Valhallan Spearhead
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Heavy Support - Punisher, Demolisher, Battle Tank x2

Guard tanks in and of themselves are not bad. They hit hard for the points because it's a gun welded to a brick, it doesn't have to pay for a bunch of extra stuff like melee ability or special abilities. Demolishers and Full Payload Tank Ace Manticores in particular are very powerful, with other units having utility based on the list such as Scout Sentinels, Hellhounds, and Punisher tanks.

The problem is that 9th is a very aggressive and mobile edition focusing on taking objectives. Yes, tanks can absolutely decimate when it comes to firepower, but you will lose most games because many armies can easily close the gap turn one, tie up your key tanks, and you will be practically defenseless unless you decided to run nothing but Punishers and Annihilators. Your tanks will be obsec, but that will matter little when 2 troop models knock your tank of the objective and it cant even pick targets because it's stuck in melee, if it even survived the charge.

Simply put, guard tanks need infantry to survive all but the most braindead casual of gunlines being run against it. So many lists now, even ones by absolute newbies in my area, are getting in your face turn one and engaging in melee. Your tanks can't outrun the melee threats, they can't fight them in melee, and a clever opponent will deny overwatch and shots in general by hugging terrain. Your tank commanders will be focused and destroyed first, and without tank commander support the regular russes and vehicles will fold shortly afterwards. I would say any tank army needs minimum 60 infantry to function, and that's a real barebones number.

I'm a novice when it comes to tactics, but I've been thinking about a tank-based list too. What if it included a significant number of heavy flamers, perhaps boosted with Gunnery Experts and Pyromaniacs? Wouldn't that handle the melee threats pretty well? If chimeras and sentinels ran first, and tried to block things from reaching the heavy guns?

The problem remains that the new Melta weapons will quite likely remove every vehicle without good invulnerability saves pretty fast and that you can hardly score objectives without infantry

 Pomander Cask wrote:
I'm a novice when it comes to tactics, but I've been thinking about a tank-based list too. What if it included a significant number of heavy flamers, perhaps boosted with Gunnery Experts and Pyromaniacs? Wouldn't that handle the melee threats pretty well? If chimeras and sentinels ran first, and tried to block things from reaching the heavy guns?

Sadly no. You can't create airtight bubble wrap for tanks with vehicles, the opponent will ignore your chump blocking vehicles, or worse, use them against you by hiding from your shooting in melee. You can only overwatch once, so in bigger games that won't work, and even then, most vehicles will hit on 5's at best, and even 3d6 flamers really isnt doing a lot to the kind of melee threat you need to be scared of. Yeah, 3d6 refilling flamers will mess up some infantry, but it won't stop a smash captain, lord discordant, or flyrant.

So with Aggressors being nerfed and Eradicators being even better mass infantry seem more tempting then ever.

The return of footguard?

I'm reluctant... Aggressors are still pretty good against infantry, just less broken and all the other Marines with their bolters, bolterdiscipline and CC potential should still not have that much trouble getting rid of infantry. And with Eradicators as they are not only vehicles are in danger, I also see big problems for our Bullgryns.

3 Eradicators with their free MM have 8 shots, hitting 5.33, wounding 3.56, doing 2.96 wounds against Slabshields or 1.78 against bruteshields. So they kill 2-3 Bullgryns each shooting phase in Meltarange and slightly less outside of Melta range without any buffs, chapters, rerolls.

Edit: just did the math outside of Melta range: average # of shots to kill a 3W model with 1d6 is 1.36 => so the 3 Eradicators kill 2.18 Bullgryns with slabshields and 1.3 with Bruteshields outside of Melta range and without any buffs, rerolls etc.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm reluctant... Aggressors are still pretty good against infantry, just less broken and all the other Marines with their bolters, bolterdiscipline and CC potential should still not have that much trouble getting rid of infantry. And with Eradicators as they are not only vehicles are in danger, I also see big problems for our Bullgryns.

3 Eradicators with their free MM have 8 shots, hitting 5.33, wounding 3.56, doing 2.96 wounds against Slabshields or 1.78 against bruteshields. So they kill 2-3 Bullgryns each shooting phase in Meltarange and slightly less outside of Melta range without any buffs, chapters, rerolls.

Edit: just did the math outside of Melta range: average # of shots to kill a 3W model with 1d6 is 1.36 => so the 3 Eradicators kill 2.18 Bullgryns with slabshields and 1.3 with Bruteshields outside of Melta range and without any buffs, rerolls etc.

Yeah but if they're shooting your Bullgryn they're not shooting your tanks. Maybe with proper setup between Bullgryn, demolishers, and manticores with an infantry screen you can put the player in a damned if he does/damned if he doesn't scenario.

It's that, or try reserving our big heavy hitter units and just have a bunch of infantry on the table turn one to buy you time and bait enemy units into the open. Demolishers outflanking can hit most of the table and be wherever you need them, and the manticores can literally be dropped wherever, they don't care.

Of course, I missed half of my thoughts. I meant that Eradicators are not only good at killing vehicles, but that even when you bring (almost) none, they are still quite efficient at killing squads of Bullgryns. So an "all infantry guard" being matched against a SM army containing Eradicators might still provide enough targets for them to win back their points in one or two shooting phases

Edit: just heard that the MM costs them 10 points. Just for completeness. But the point still stands

Wait, those freaks are 24 inch range AND doubletap AND extra damage on their meltas AND reroll all hits next to a chaptermaster AND its only 10 points?

You're kidding

I know that seems pretty strong, but on the other hand, they need to sell the models, so they have to be worth the hefty price tag.

The extra damage of course only triggers within half range but apart from that: yes

What do you think about armoured sentinels ? They are M8 T6 W6 3+ sv with multilaser for 35 pts. Sounds like good value for me. Nine of them are a lot wounds to remove. In a vehicle heavy list with hellhounds and LRBTs they might draw some heavy fire away from the hellhounds and tanks.

 p5freak wrote:
What do you think about armoured sentinels ? They are M8 T6 W6 3+ sv with multilaser for 35 pts. Sounds like good value for me. Nine of them are a lot wounds to remove. In a vehicle heavy list with hellhounds and LRBTs they might draw some heavy fire away from the hellhounds and tanks.

They would also help to screen the basilisks from being deepstrike'd. If you're on short edges you canhave the sentinels at the front, basilisks at the back, and 18" between the two where nothing can land. That should keep the meltas at bay.

 some bloke wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
What do you think about armoured sentinels ? They are M8 T6 W6 3+ sv with multilaser for 35 pts. Sounds like good value for me. Nine of them are a lot wounds to remove. In a vehicle heavy list with hellhounds and LRBTs they might draw some heavy fire away from the hellhounds and tanks.

They would also help to screen the basilisks from being deepstrike'd. If you're on short edges you canhave the sentinels at the front, basilisks at the back, and 18" between the two where nothing can land. That should keep the meltas at bay.

Sounds like a good idea. I was thinking using them as objective holders, because guardsmen die almost instantly. I also think about using manticores instead of basilisks. They can only shoot four times, but have 2D6 shots, can get +1 to hit when they see the target, can fire twice, get one dice rerolled with gunnery experts, and get fixed 3 damage with tank ace. Jury rigged repairs would help the sentinels, hellhounds, LRBTs, manticores.

Hey guys.

I had a 2k point game on Saturday against Tau and was my first game of 9th. Figured I would try a lot of the strategies I was reading on here.

Core of my list - 1 LRTC with hammer of sundance, 1 LRTC demolisher + 2 LRBT Demolishers. 2 squads of bullgryn riding in x2 flamer Chimeras. 60 infantry boys and assorted charachters/heavy weapon squads.
He brought farsite enclaves with a riptide, 5 broadsides, 7 crisis suits, 1 coldstar commander with missiles, 1 commander with x4 melta, + assorted infantry.

I ended up winning by quite a lot on points, but with almost all of my threat units killed.

Basically I turn one move move moved onto 3 objectives, had the 3 Demolishers and 2 chimeras race up towards his threats. So for AM, I felt like I had really good board pressure. Granted, it was against tau, but still felt good. His riptide point click destroyed a tank every turn, and his broad sides did work, but they couldnt deal with all 5 tanks rushing up. Got in his face, secured the back line and objectives, had the hammer of sunderance commander laying out supporting fire, and took the victory. Honestly with its 3+ invul the riptide didnt even feel like a worthy target to shoot, as I felt like I would be throwing all my firepower away for little return. So I largely ignored it and tried to shoot at everything else. Also, the 60 infrantry were so important with denying deep strike. I had my entire deployment zoned out.
Worked alright, I was wondering if you guys think throwing everything at it till it dies is the better strat or if ignoring it is the right play. Even without shield drones riptides feel incredibly point efficient.

Really the only reason I won was because of the board pressure. Everyone is for sure correct when they say board pressure is incredibly important in 9th. Without that pressure I would have lost for sure.
I was excited to test out the chimeras, and I was mostly satisfied with them. Honestly I liked how they performed more than how the bullgryn inside did. Maybe nexttime I replace the bullgryns with a x4 melta command squad? Or maybe just 10 more normal boys. Either way it feels like whats inside is secondary, what matters is the full speed ahead ramshackling double flamering death machine that is the chimera.

Also I didnt take a manticore (as I dont have one) but thinking about how it would have performed that game.... I see why people say they are an auto include.

So I boiled down the Astra "update with the new space marine weapons" FAQ and stick it in here as a public service. Its at https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/05/codex-updates-wargear-profiles-and-rules/ if you want to do reading it yourself.


So basically we have a couple good thigns out of this. Per the faq, and surprisingly, a potential use for a melee baneblade backed up by a bunch of catachans with powerswords and fists, led by a melee oriented psyker? Why not!

A wall of heavy bolter equipped manticores and basililsiks clustered around sgt harkness blasting away at the intercesors for 2D each? Why not! Its not just secondary weapons anymore, we can move and fire to full effect so perhaps instead of an artillery PARK, we have a motor rally to get all the secondaries into line of sight, and harkness just goes for a jog.

(Also, a wall of heavy flamer equipped leman russes, carefully deployed, can enter from the side of the wall and spray their suprised opponent with something like 9d6 hits + whatever the hell their big guns do. Nothing to sneeze at. Or a single baneblade with 10 heavy flamers on it could put out (if it rolled PERFECT) 60 hits in overwatch before it stooped to using its guns that need to aim. Even against snarky basterd marines who charge in reliably from 12 inches exactly, flame ON!)

Interestingly and annoyingly both, stormshields update appears universal -- and affects crusaders (per the faq in the sisters AND the faq of the gaurd).So they are now down (even Gottfred) to 3+/4++ armor (because it gives them a +1 to save built in. This has the unintended effect of making their ACTUAL ARMOR they wear relevant, and I will show you how...
So now, 10 crusaders with +1 to save from their shield and in cover (+1 to save) and gone to ground (+1 to save) AND helped by a psyker (yet another +1/1++ to save) would be able to save as 4+ minus shield effect/cover/strat/spell or as an effective ZERO save, meaning they effectively ignore ap-1 and ap-2 if you buff the hell out of them, and even a titan can't move them past their 3++ invuln. I think that might have use, they can (albeit a bit only 1 unit) become one of the best reslience choices we currently have. Sure, they CAN be killed, but they are tough now the way sisters of battle can be tough, and having them as the solution to a single contested forward objective might be a game winner/loser decision. Also a second astropath, if brought, could potentially hand them a -1 to be hit as well. That isn't maybe the best unit or type of model on the board, but if it makes a hard to remove bumper at a front objective, ...

As far as I'm concerned reading the changes, nothing incredible, but since they're free buffs for now, all good and welcome changes. Just remember, these weapons are being used against us as well.

Random thoughts
*As a guy who runs Catachans, powerswords seem like a no brainer on infantry squads if you plan on melee. 4 S5 ap3 attacks is enough to actually have the guard squad do something to marines and you can wound enemy vehicles on 5's. It's only chip damage but for a screen that's gonna be in melee anyways just makes sense to me. Powerfists are more reliable on officers now with flat 2, makes me very happy.
*Manticores were already autoinclude, the s10 buff to the hunter killer means with full payload it should always be taken for a flat 6 damage hit on call in a pinch. I have been using the auger array for it as well, just to give as much chance as possible it hits. This is nastiest in small games, but is still useful even up to 2k. The HK missile can and will one shot characters who are not careful. Plus with the heavy bolter and flamer changes there's more reason to make use of the hull weapon as well, with the heavy bolter probably being better now, though flamer isn't a bad choice
*Infantry flamers are still pretty pointless, but the range increase is nice. Heavy flamers coming out of reserves and being in range will have some niche uses that could be powerful, aka Valhallan flamer spam for clearing vehicles, leman Russe's rolling on with Triple heavy flamers, etc. I'm not crazy about it, but someone will find a use for it. Scout sentinels with heavy flamers might be a nice little objectives taker early on.
*Plasma is better for us thanks to not killing us on 2's, but otherwise eh, same ol same ol.
*I was having good luck with melta before by doing the old "melta hedge" with my screening squads. I usually only get a couple melta hits a game, but as that hit usually means a dead character or vehicle, I find they're worth the points usually. Keeps those few surviving squads at the end of the game relevant for more than just standing on something, makes characters think twice about going near them. The new changes make melta more consistent. A demolisher commander with multimelta and lascannon is one of the nastiest units point for point, provided he lives long enough to shoot.
*Heavy bolter spam could be a viable tactic. Wounds anything in the game on at least 5's, ap1 is pretty consistently useful, and flat 2 damage makes it pretty handy for everything from marines to vehicles. Spamming them across chimeras, infantry squads, and tanks could add up to more than it would first appear. Will need testing to see for sure though.


What worries me is that these same weapons will be used against us. While I think flamers are pretty trash on our stuff most of the time, they're not always the case with other armies. Deepstriking units with flamers will be nasty for our infantry, and should multi meltas become common with enemy armies tanks will have to be reserved or hidden well to survive enemy alpha strikes. Sisters for example are way nastier now since their main weapons they spam all got serious buffs. Retributors with multimeltas in particular worries me, but sisters can also spam a lot of heavy bolters and flamers, they arguably got a bigger weapon buff than the marines themselves did, since these were the only weapons they use anyways.

Dukeofstuff wrote:

Baneblades can now fall back and still charge!

Baneblade chassis have always been able to fall back, shoot, and charge in the same turn. They have also always been able to shoot out of combat, and could also shoot sponsons weapons into combat albeit with no negative to hit.

Baneblade chassis are unusable in 9th as they cannot move with all the terrain, have one-sided line of sight blocking, give up secondaries, and can be one-shot eradicated with ease.

Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Wait, those freaks are 24 inch range AND doubletap AND extra damage on their meltas AND reroll all hits next to a chaptermaster AND its only 10 points?

You're kidding

The 10 pts is because new codexes you have cheapest weapon option built in on price and you only pay for upgrades. So since they replace weapon that costs more than 0 pts they get discount.

In IG comparison. You have 3 heavy weapon team each consisting 3 models worth 10 pts each. Let's say cheapest weapon is heavy bolter for 10 pts. Thus each HWT will cost 20 pts. Then if you want to upgrade to say missile launcher at 15 pts in codex point entry it would be - missile launcher 5 pts.

It's different from how 8e did it and more back to how it used to be in 3-7th edition...

(incidentally for infantry squads it would likely be heavy bolter +10, missile launcher +15. But doesn't mean HWT gets discount on weapons. Just that there the heavy bolter price is baked in)

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.

Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.

Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.

This may have been discussed before, but with Crusader's Acts of Faith - they happen at the start of the turn. I couldn't find a clear definition of when that is in the 9th turn structure - is it before or after Command Phase? If before, this could be used for some sneaky objective grabbing...

Its unclear. I would say before the command phase.

I have a GSC question, but that part of the forum is as dead as a necron tomb world where somebody pulled the socked out of the wall.

In short GSC has an amasing power to deepstrike, but something needs to start on the board.

I currently own no brood brothers (the name of imperial guard units in the GSC codex) outside of an old chimera and a heavy weapon team.

How druable are regular guard units, heavy weapon teams or chimeraes for holding hole objective? 50 points for 10 dudes seems quite OK. For 10 point more i can pile on a heavy weapon to make sure they can not just be ignored.

(The IG units in the GSC codex is regular guard infantery, both sentinels, heavy weapon teams and the heavy suport version of the leman russ.)