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Trouble is that is like someone trying to sell a car with two broken cylinders in its motor by pointing out if it is simply towed or pushed, nobody will ever feel like the motor isn't good.
However.. I encourage you to post up the lists, so that gaurd players can look at them and get good ideas for their own struggles with the matter.

In fact...

I been meaning to ask this list to start considering good soup combinations for gaurd as a matter of course, because of the generic weakness of gaurd at so many operational objectives in ninth. For example, a core of 3 iron hands redempter dreads and a single character dread, with an augmented techmarine leading them, as a possible midfield countercharge and firebase? I know this doesn't exactly win the midfield battle, but concentrating 4 dread + 1 character as a countercharge isn't too shabby either, and at -1 damage per hit, with some repair available, they are not as easy to bring down as a trio of tank commanders (which would, of course, cost abotu 50 more each than the 3 dread redempters.

The whole package is about 800 points -- not trivial at all -- but you can buy a lot of gaurd with 1200 points, I think.

 tau tse tung wrote:
I don't understand why everybody is moaning here. I reminds me of the days of 7th or 5th.

Guard with a sisters or GSC detachment have been working fine for me. Using the ambush rule to tie up heavy close combat units with say a rockgrinder has done well for me so far. The dagger of a sisters squad in a multimelta immulator has done well by me. I don't see the issue?

I could see allies working, but a lot of people want pure IG to work, and that's a struggle. We shouldn't have to ally to be functional, we're a main army. Sisters of silence or something, sure, makes sense they'd need allies to win, but we're IG, were supposed to be able to carry our own weight. I think the main issue isn't the guard codex itself, but the mission set it is being asked to fight in. Guard units, in a vacuum, can be quite good. The manticore might be the most cost efficient shooting unit in the game point for point, guardsmen are very effective in numbers, and Bullgryn do their job pretty well, to name just a few.

The issue is that the rules of most missions absolutely punish IG. There are certain secondaries that are almost impossible to not max against us, and they're in different categories. Few armies in the game, even losing, are going to fail to get Attrition every turn for example. We also rely on a ton of characters, so Assassinate is easy, and often it combines with other missions like Abhor the Witch or Thin Their Ranks, meaning a unit like a Tank Commander can give up points for 3 different secondaries. What this means is a pure IG army needs to go into most missions understanding that it is giving up 45 points to the opponent practically guaranteed, so you need to crush the opponent on objectives. Except you do that by having durable units park on objectives quickly and then fight the opponent off of them, not exactly a thing IG is known for. Meanwhile, armies like marines give up very few secondaries while having a relatively easy time scoring secondaries and primaries alike. There isn't a single Secondary I've seen that punishes a marine player at all in the core rulebook. Usually I'm stuck with the mission specific secondary, engage on all fronts, and then hoping my opponent brought enough pyskers or vehicles/monsters/characters to get a decent amount of kill secondary. GW really needed something in the secondaries that punishes elite armies but there's none to be seen. Marines aren't even the worst offender, pulling secondaries out of a custodes player is like pulling teeth.

We're not as disadvantaged as Tau, but we are struggling when it comes to winning the mission. The best results I have had have involved heavily spamming the few good units we have, namely Catachan Infantry squads, Bullgryn, Manticores, Special weapon squads reserved/stormtroopers, and Demolisher tank commanders. And even then, it's a hard fight vs marines and custodes. Honestly if we just got a couple secondaries that involved killing elite units of infantry, or even a rule that stated thin their ranks was calculated by infantry wounds inflicted, not models killed, guard would get a good boost. As is, you just need to realize that the deck is stacked against you a bit.

I've not really gotten to try much else given my work schedule and covid. I'm part of a league that locks you into factions so once I went Catachan there was no changing it. I'm mulling over some ideas for Cadian infantry spam and some stormtrooper/infantry hybrid lists that mostly ignore tanks, but it'll be a while before I get to try them. I want to like tank commanders, but they're just so fragile and hard to hide while giving up points. I'm tempted to forgo them entirely and put those points into a doom drop of stormtroopers while leaving a couple manticores in the back with a horde of guardsmen and Bullgryn to hold the line till the drop happens. I may try it at 1500pts, we'll see what I can finish getting painted before the next stage.

I would almost consider arming up a detachment of the world's worst point cost units in the game ... inquisition! 6 acolytes with 6 meltas is about the same price as an eradicator unit, and if they were ordo minoris you could reroll all shooting and wounding vs a character. IF they were also given psychic pursuit by a friendly inquisitor, they become the most terrifying thing to suddenly drop next to a couple of marines like librarians and such.
Cause I don't care how many 5++ saves you make, you miss a couple, and meltas gonna melt.

Suddenly strip out the enemy's ability to 5++ shield, 6+++ feel no pain, and bring his units back from the dead, and you will have a lot better odds of killing a lot of marines with manticore firepower, with plasma rifles, with anything in your army.

I know its about 300 points, but if you can reduce 220 points of chief librarian and chief apothecary to nothing with it, wouldn't it be well spent?
Slip them into the middle of a big drop of scions, and the enemy may end up unable to screen the valkyrie out from all its possible approaches -- and stepping out of a bird doesn't allow auspex scan.
If not, well, point them at a nearby dreadnaught and shoot it with meltas. Could make your points back as well.


So I think acolyte melta is a possible soup in that I would not, a month ago, have thought to be worth it on any level what so ever, simply because you can put them in a bird and step out to whammo.

Anyone tried outflanking melta special weapon teams/command squads? They’re crazy low PL so it costs 1 cp to drop 3 of each + a commander. Or scion melta command squads

Also remember scion deepstrike has no cost, and is more flexible. Also remember that scions commmand squads can pair or tripple up in a valkyrie for a precision drop of devastating result, without risking any sort of countermeasure against reinforcements arriving. (eg auspex scans or superior intelligence, et al.)

I think the board edge stuff works best with things like longer ranged RF plasma in custom regiments, maximizes your chance to get on a real target from the few places you can come on board "up front".

C4790M wrote:
Anyone tried outflanking melta special weapon teams/command squads? They’re crazy low PL so it costs 1 cp to drop 3 of each + a commander. Or scion melta command squads

I am doing so in the crusade league my store is having. 18 bodies, 9 plasma for only 3PL total? Yes please. Haven't tried outflanking yet, seems like a good strat to give them some mobility flexibility.

So, based on the Kreig article today, it looks like Command Squads of all flavors won't take up a slot if their respective HQ unit is brought. Not sure if Platoon Commanders will count though, but maybe, given their history.

Does anyone here think the following will be seen more commonly once our Codex is out?

-3x Chimera + 3 Command Squads (all Melta or Plasma)
-6x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma)
- (If Platoon Commanders don't count for taking a Command Squad without using a slot): 3x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma)

What's the difference between Outflanking strat and the general reserve rules from the core book? That you can already use it on turn 1?

Arcanis161 wrote:
So, based on the Kreig article today, it looks like Command Squads of all flavors won't take up a slot if their respective HQ unit is brought. Not sure if Platoon Commanders will count though, but maybe, given their history.

Does anyone here think the following will be seen more commonly once our Codex is out?

-3x Chimera + 3 Command Squads (all Melta or Plasma)
-6x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma)
- (If Platoon Commanders don't count for taking a Command Squad without using a slot): 3x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma)

You would still need to deal with rule of 3, just because they free up slots doesn't mean you can take more of them. Since there's no such thing as platoon vs company command squads anymore, you're stuck with 3 of them and 3 SWS. If you want more, you'll need to take vets or stormtroopers.

I'm curious how the WS and # of attacks of the Death Riders will shake out. Changing the hunting lance to AP-3, D2 (instead of Dd3) and the claws to AP-1 makes them a bit more efficient against the Marine profile.

IF they remain at A2 (A3 for the Ridemaster) and WS3+ it would mean a unit of 5 kills:
11 attacks x 2/3 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 4.07 Marines and then the horses another
10 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 (because D1) = 0.83 for a total of 4.9, so one Squad. Currently death riders are at 15 points/horse, so that would mean they can kill their points in standard marines in one charge. More if the Regimental standard still gives +1 attack to each.

And the Death Rider Command Squad seems to get one attack more. But of course, I wouldn't be surprised if GW either degrades them to A1, WS 4+ and/or increases their price.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
So, based on the Kreig article today, it looks like Command Squads of all flavors won't take up a slot if their respective HQ unit is brought. Not sure if Platoon Commanders will count though, but maybe, given their history.

Does anyone here think the following will be seen more commonly once our Codex is out?

-3x Chimera + 3 Command Squads (all Melta or Plasma)
-6x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma)
- (If Platoon Commanders don't count for taking a Command Squad without using a slot): 3x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma)

You would still need to deal with rule of 3, just because they free up slots doesn't mean you can take more of them. Since there's no such thing as platoon vs company command squads anymore, you're stuck with 3 of them and 3 SWS. If you want more, you'll need to take vets or stormtroopers.

Ah, ok, so just the last one of: 3x Chimera + Commander + Special Weapons Squad (Melta or Plasma) + Command Squad (Melta or Plasma).

You guys think this will be common? Or does it seem too fragile for the points?

More like too many points for what it's doing sadly. For the price of a chimera and command squad with officer you could be deepstriking proper stormtroopers anywhere on the board with a whole host of bonuses and nasty abilities. Lambda lions for example have ap3 lasguns base, ways for those lasguns to dish out MW, reroll 1 aura so they can double down on rerolling wounds vs monsters/tanks or reroll 1's to wound against anything, etc. Etc. Others get increased rapid fire range or hit bonuses.

The big upside to the chimeras of course is they're tougher for the points and can be doing their thing from turn one, but if I want a vehicle to get weapons into place I'd want a valkyrie for the grav chutes, since it's not much more than a chimera while being tougher to kill and having better weapons, mobility, and deployment rules. Problem is if you go second you may as well paint a giant "shoot me" sign on the valkyrie, no one is dumb enough to let one live.

strategic reserve is costed for your ambush like ability to put the unit off the board based on the total power level you put in SR. Ambush however has a fixed price for 1 to 3 tallarn units, of which any one can be a vehicle unit, EVEN A SQUAD. So for 3 cp, I remember it costing, you can put 2 squads of veterans and 3 leman russ off the board to come in on the board edge, as an example, while with the SR strat you pay 1 cp per (roughly) 10 levels of power. So marginally tallarns can do it cheaper cp wise, but comparitively, you could send all three leman russes into strategic reserve as separate units, and thus, bring them in over here, way over there, and another one back down yonder, as the mood struck you.

So efficiency vs flexibility for vehicles, basically.

Also right of now Ambush lets you deploy 7'' (instead of 6'') from the table edge. Which might (I'm not sure) be enough for a Baneblade with sponsons.

Am I the only one that really hates FW stuff?
Don't get me wrong. I really like how the models look. But thats it.

The rules are always OP. They always has to do more than the GW stuff. At least so it seems.
Better weapons, better special rules.
And most of the time the point cost is just cheap.

No never enjoy playing against FW stuff. So I refuse to use FW rules myself!

So I don't care the dkok lost much or not!

@ Krull: I don't see it that way. The Malcadors are worse than their weight in Leman Russ, the Machariusses are worse/on par with their Baneblade counterparts (the Vulcan can have more shots than the Stormlord but has no transport capacity or firing deck). The Hades drill is gimicky but (in my opinion) far from overpowered. The Carnodon is a relatively cheap Lascannon platform, but LR are still better at almost all roles it can have. I don't know the flyers well enough to say something about them, but I assume those are pretty good, I grant you that but I so far have to see someone complaining about them or one of it appearing massivly in tournaments.

In other words: looking at IG which Forgeworld models so you have in mind when you refer to broken and too cheap FW stuff?

Krull - ??? I usually face the total oposite situation, when the FW is nice looking crap....

Krull wrote:
Am I the only one that really hates FW stuff?
Don't get me wrong. I really like how the models look. But thats it.

The rules are always OP. They always has to do more than the GW stuff. At least so it seems.
Better weapons, better special rules.
And most of the time the point cost is just cheap.

No never enjoy playing against FW stuff. So I refuse to use FW rules myself!

So I don't care the dkok lost much or not!

What planet are you on. The vast majority of forgeworld units were completely unplayable during 8th and 9th so far.

I mean ask yourself what you have actually seen at tournaments doing well outside of custodes (who are half forgeworld as a faction) I can count maybe 10 units or just under 5% of forgeworld models that see competative play (and two of them aren't in the compendium) and most of those datasheets weren't playable throughout 8th only becoming good with successive buffs to SM looking at iron hands dreadnoughts. Outside of the dreadnoughts its tough to think of anything overpowered. The cyclops knight castigator hoplites carnodon and custodes are all reasonable but balanced options

Sure the few units that are going to see play tend to be at the more efficient end because lets face it because that's why people run them at events no one trying to win is taking that 2000pt warhound titan or an acastus knight because fw is broken (well actually I have seen both at events coming last as you would expect).

Forgeworld needed some rules changes and points adjustments but mostly to make them better the range wants to be on a par with GW not underpowered.

He posted the exact same question about FW in the Necron thread. Probably just trolling since it hasn't been accurate in about 10 year for IG

 Sentineil wrote:
He posted the exact same question about FW in the Necron thread. Probably just trolling since it hasn't been accurate in about 10 year for IG

FW does seem to throw out something weird every few years that some people take heavy advantage of. Look at the Sabre turrets and quad mortars in 7th, or Vendetta spam in 5-6th (I miss you vendettas!) and there was a lot of Vultures lurking in early 8th. Most of the time its because of an unintended rule interaction (like Sabre Turrets being T7) or a unit just being criminally undercosted.

Yes but was that any more broken than the admech warcon or the all my transports are free sm battle company of the era.

You need to judge forgeworld by how it has performed in 8th and 9th which are the editions we are in not by 5th/6th ed which is what a decade ago.

I'm not saying forgeworld won't throw up the odd broken unit when they put out 200+ but so does GW. But they are few and far between and usually over nerfed unlike the GW castellan that sat around forever or SM now.

So one question pops into my head. At this point, our melee element is usually seeming to be a big pile of bully with maul, and its goign to swing last if the marines have a justicar. IS splitting it into two piles (of perhaps 5 each) better than one pile of 10 with an extra 48 points to burn?

Would a pile of 4 bully and 8crusader (with a minipriest nearby each) be enough to stop a marine charge long enough that a valhallan army could unload everything into the remnants of the enemy's unstopable melee ball? Cause that's a way for us to maybe do things such that the marines end up disfavorably losing troops -- while almost by definition having a second strike pack midfield able to do stuff after the trade.

Cause I could just see squeezing such a ball into each of 2 midfield objectives, but it leaves you with a lot fewer points to play artillery.

@ Dukeofstoff: I lack experience if that would stop a marine charge, but it sounds good.

One thing though regarding CC dudes: IF (a big if) Death Riders stay at 15 points as of the latest points upgrade there is some argument for them. For the price of one Bullgryn (43 points) you get 3 riders (45 points).

So T5 W3 4++ OR 2+ vs. 3 x T4 W2, 4+, 5++ against S4 or less.

I'm not sure how the math shakes out. I think the Bullgryns are a bit more sturdy, but the death riders cover more ground for the same cost, have a FNP roll against normal Marine CC attacks, are faster, hit pretty brutal on the charge with their new AP-3, D2 lances, can be ordered and outflanked. I think (unsupported by experience, so just theory) that even if they start on the board they might be useful as charge deterrent.

Pyroalchi wrote:Also right of now Ambush lets you deploy 7'' (instead of 6'') from the table edge. Which might (I'm not sure) be enough for a Baneblade with sponsons.

Also let's you come on wherever you want, even the enemy's table edges if you wish. It's probably the biggest advantage the tallarn doctrine has.

Dukeofstuff wrote:So one question pops into my head. At this point, our melee element is usually seeming to be a big pile of bully with maul, and its goign to swing last if the marines have a justicar. IS splitting it into two piles (of perhaps 5 each) better than one pile of 10 with an extra 48 points to burn?

Would a pile of 4 bully and 8crusader (with a minipriest nearby each) be enough to stop a marine charge long enough that a valhallan army could unload everything into the remnants of the enemy's unstopable melee ball? Cause that's a way for us to maybe do things such that the marines end up disfavorably losing troops -- while almost by definition having a second strike pack midfield able to do stuff after the trade.

Cause I could just see squeezing such a ball into each of 2 midfield objectives, but it leaves you with a lot fewer points to play artillery.

I've heard of worse plans. Beware that the Valhallans shoot into combat can be difficult to pull off because you use your order to shoot into combat and lose your reroll 1's or FRFSRF to do it. This can be mitigated a bit by bringing a character with a universal reroll order like Yarrick or using grenadiers to Chuck 10 frag grenades, but overall your shooting will be a bit weaker. You also need to have your infantry close enough to the combat to contribute without getting killed in it or picked off by enemy fire. Guardsmen with special weapons are juicy targets even when your opponent doesn't know what you're up to, so you either need terrain or transports. I guess a few double flamer or double Bolter chimeras packed with SWS, Vets, or CCS could do the job, but you're paying a lot of points for the privilege. Not to mention you're giving up a better doctrine like Catachan. This could be fixed by bringing a Valhallan infantry detachment and a tank detachment from Catachans or custom depending on preference I guess.

That said, the local Blood Angels player swears my Valhallans are the most difficult for him to beat, and I run Catachans quite a bit as well. It is a fun curve ball that absolutely throws people off the first time they see it, but just beware that once people see it they wise up pretty quick.

As for Bullgryn, usually you see the big mob for buffs, but with stuff like the Judicare and the fact that they're our only really objective taking unit, it might indeed be better to try two smaller squads, that way they can split up, stay together, fit in transports, whatever you need. I have everything I need to try something like that, I may give it a spin next time I have a chance for a 2k game.

 Sentineil wrote:
He posted the exact same question about FW in the Necron thread. Probably just trolling since it hasn't been accurate in about 10 year for IG

Not exact the same.
Here i added i dont care dkok lost much because there was much talk about dkok. And i don't see why you would take dkok apart for liking the ugly models.

I do acknoledge most FW OP stuff was from before 8th and a bit early 8th.
I didnt say the OP stuff was guard stuff.
In 8th it was mostly FW dreadnoughts you encountered.

PS: not everyone reads the necrons and IG tactics. so this general comment/question belongs in both

I do acknoledge most FW OP stuff was from before 8th and a bit early 8th.
I didnt say the OP stuff was guard stuff.
In 8th it was mostly FW dreadnoughts you encountered.

@ Krull: serious question: then why do you post the statement that FW stuff is always overpowered and often too cheap in the 9th Edition IG tactics threat? Isn't that rather pointless then?
But to be fair again as answer to your question: No I don't hate FW or playing against Forgeworld looking from the perspective of 9th Edition IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow... it seems Death riders now have a flat 5++ instead of "only against S4 or less". => they might (!) acutally become an alternative to Bullgryns I think.
Also for some reason the Death Rider Command Squad went from elite to fast attack and the normal riders from fast attack to elite?

Also the Trojan is still there and seems to be able to let a vehicle with a one-shot weapon fire again (hello Death Strike missile)
Tarantulas are now Fortifications.

source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvv14xVrYoM

Edit: and according to the goonhammer article it seems the riders even went to W3 dir still 15 points. Those are some serious buffs...
I got 20 counts as Death Riders so I'm pretty hyped

do dying death k riders get an extra lance attack in their doctrine as well? That could give you quite a decent alternative to bullygrns, some lost resilience -- but a stingback in melee.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
do dying death k riders get an extra lance attack in their doctrine as well? That could give you quite a decent alternative to bullygrns, some lost resilience -- but a stingback in melee.

Unfortunately no, for some reason the only models that get the rules are vehicles and characters.

The commander will because of character keyword...

Dukeofstuff wrote:
do dying death k riders get an extra lance attack in their doctrine as well? That could give you quite a decent alternative to bullygrns, some lost resilience -- but a stingback in melee.

The thing is that it seems Death Riders also went to W3, 5++ against everything. So they are sometimes even more resilient than Bullgryns now point for point. If I'm not mistaken the 3 Death riders you can get for each Bullgryn can always soak up more damage then the Bruteshield Bullgryn. And compared to Slabshield Bullgryn they are worse against S4,5,8 AP0, equal against S3,6,7, AP0 and S4 AP-1 and better against everything else.