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Krull wrote:

Not exact the same.
Here i added i dont care dkok lost much because there was much talk about dkok. And i don't see why you would take dkok apart for liking the ugly models.

I do acknoledge most FW OP stuff was from before 8th and a bit early 8th.
I didnt say the OP stuff was guard stuff.
In 8th it was mostly FW dreadnoughts you encountered.

PS: not everyone reads the necrons and IG tactics. so this general comment/question belongs in both

Posting this in the IG Tactica-Thread = Troll confirmed.

Let's ignore it and move along people.

How do we feel about the "new" FW-Tanks?

I only own 3, the Malcador Infernus, the Macharius and the Valdor;

The Infernus.
Actually improved by becoming cheaper and getting more shots on it's maingun.
With 2 Heavy Flamer sponsons (because why not) it's less than 300 points.
I can actually see myself using it quite frequently now.

The Macharius.
Did it even change? Still pretty bad, given it's cost and damage output. 2 regular Leman Russes will both outshoot it and outtank it. If they'd given it the Grinding Advance-rule I could see myself field it, as it would technically be like slamming two Leman Russes together into a single LoW, with slightly higher damage out put but lower resiliency. Now however you're essentially just spending 3 CP for a tank that offers nothing new and is worse point-for-point than our regular tanks...

The Valdor
Went from bad to worse with it's gun going from Heavy 2D3 to Heavy 3.
Not sure in what world 3 BS3+ S12 AP3 D6(if it didn't move) shots is worth 340 pts but it's not this one.
2 Leman Russ Vanquishers can probably outgun in it's intended role, and that's saying something.

On the flipside, the Macharius Vanquisher got some boost it's Macharius-brother didn't and now looks ...OK:ish as a Tank/Monster-hunter.
Only 2 shots, but with +1 to hit it might actually land some hits, and with enough S, AP and D to actually inflict damage.
Not only better at its job than the Valdor (which isn't saying much tbh), but it's cheaper as well(!).
I might actually use my regular Macharius as a count-as Vanquisher and give it a go.

Casual game tonight.
Old terrain from the FLGS meant my army was unable to fire long distance shots in turns 1,2,3.
Manticores utterly failed at killing aggressors in cover.
My souped in marines did pretty well (except the infiltrators who were swallowed whole by the enemy's army, a marine white scars horde with 2 dreadnaughts)
My scions had almost no effect, wiht the exception of a precise drop on turns 1 and 2 from my one valkyrie (killed a dreadnaught, won an objective by doing so, and hopped out into the fourth quadrend for "all 4 areas" VP points.

My taurox spam was literally useless. Killed maybe 2 marines with multiple rounds of gatling and HSVG fire.

Sigh. MY friend is ultracompetitive -- this was his idea of a casual list to be "gentle" on me, so all of his primaris units had feel no pains and were in cover every round, of course. However, 2 things DID work well.
Good. Marines I used worked well. Nothing else did except melta command squads. Oh, and my one multilaser KILLED A MARINE EVERY ROUND. While the manticores, with full payload, killed only 3 all game. What the hell..... but I will never talk bad about those 5 points on a valkyrie again. Never.

Bad. Manticores had no to little effect, suffering from lousy accuracy despite cadian rerolls (he used a strat to turn some of his units -1 to be hit) and because of the effects of terrain and saves.

New thought of the day.
Instead of useless manticores and rather underperforming tauroxes, I would consider a third group with iotan gorgonnes to allow a near to the enemy drop (5.1 inches) in addition to the usual valkyrie based precsion drop. Probably with lots of meltas.

Scions are good only to to drop, do deploy scramblers and die imho... never seen them in 9th doing anything but scratch some paint...

But for doing scramblers, they are fine, cause they deepstrike for free and are cheap.

So random things I've noticed on the FW leaks

*Avenger strike fighter bolt cannon is fixed. Heavy 10, S6, Ap2, 2 damage. Downside is it went down to T6 and is only BS4. Also it can't take any additional weapons, you get two lascannon and the bolt cannon, plus a dinky stubbed, that's it. 165pts. Might work well for hunting characters

*The new artillery crew rules mean all guardsmen crew are essentially decorative, the only thing that matters is the gun itself. This includes the rapier. Basilisk and medusa field guns are 120pts, pretty useless since they have way less wounds and a worse save for minimal pts difference. Rapier is 85pts

*The new cyclops is pretty vicious for the points, I can see myself running these, if only to get to stuff hiding in combat. A few of these combined with Valhallan conscripts would be a fun way to mess with combat armies. Fun tidbits, the cyclops can only hit models it can see and always has a flat 6" range. You can have an officer standing on the other side of a wall 2" away and he'd be fine, same for enemies. For 50pts seems like a steal for 2d6 S9 d3 damage hits on everything in a 6" radius. Hide them behind walls or tanks and wait for some poor sap to charge your infantry screen or even keep it near a target you know the opponents elite melee unit wants to hit. You can also stick them in transports for some reason, but they can't be blown up the turn you disembark them.

*Armageddon Medusa may become a competitive artillery choice for IG, especially with custom regiment. Heavy d6, S10, ap3, d6 damage that ignores LOS with 36" rsnge is not bad especially with 9ths smaller tables. Might try a couple in my catachans combined with the tank ace manticores. Looks like 140 but I might be reading costs wrong, if heavy bolters isn't included it's 155.

*Vulture lost a ton of weapon options. Basically you can take two MRP and two hellstrikes, or you can take twin punisher, that's it. 190pts the way you know you're gonna take it.

*Vendetta can carry 12 guys again, pretty sure that's a change from 8th, 210 pts, pricey for 6 lascannon shots. still doesn't get roving gunship, best it will ever hit on is 4's

*Hellstrikes got the melta rule by the way, but it's always on. Kind of nice, but on the vendetta for example you get 4 lascannon or 2 hellstrikes shots, I'm not sure why you would ever pick the hellstrikes if you have an option.

*Hades breaching drill can be taken in any regiment, as long as you take a vet or combat engineers unit to go with it. Doesn't have any guns but might make a nice distraction since it's got a nasty melee profile for the cost. I think it's 80pts but might be 60, might not be a bad choice for plasmavets or something.

*Thunderers still don't have grinding advance, but are 120pts. Would rather have the medusa if I'm gonna have a non leman Russ Demolisher cannon style weapon that can't grinding advance.

*The CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT is 240pts

These are just things I noticed rewatching the video on 1080p. I'm sure I missed some stuff. Overall the superheavies seem like letdowns.

The Vendetta could always carry 12 dudes in 8th.

What is the rapier shooting like now?
I reckon the armaged medusa is a way to not have to lose warlord traits and command points just to beef up manticores. Or alternately, its a rather better third gun if your doctrine rerolls wound numbers, than either a 3rd manty or basi to pair with the obligatory 2 manticore full pay base.
Cyclops looks neat! (especially) to be a great "shake up the meta" asset. My competitive marine opponent friend is running an ultra elite infantry all primaris and most of them 40 points a model army these days, in a deathball. So tempting!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Vendetta could always carry 12 dudes in 8th.

Huh, there is some point specifically remember it being 6 models. If it wasn't 8th I'm stumped when it would've been. Oh well, 210pts for a 6 lascannon plane, even carrying 12 dudes is pretty steep.

With the release of the imperial armor compendium and the points adjustments, a few options have opened up to make different styles of lists. I think since a lot of armies have been going anti-tank we can look at the rapier laser destroyer for our anti-tank, as well as the quad launcher for a wyvern stand in . Also the tarantula has been moved to a fortification and you can have 1-3 per slot.

Armageddon basilisk -5
Armageddon Medusa -5
Charadon (sp?) -10 Multilaser +30 lascannon -20
Bombard -20
Cyclops -10
Heavy mortar -10
Quad launcher -20
Malcador -70 lascannon -75
Malcador annihilator -70
Malcador defender -75
Malcador infernus -75
Rapier laser destroyer -15
Vendetta -5
Vulture -5 punisher cannons -35
Tarantula -10 lascannon -15

I'm looking at a cadian detachment for the tanks and artillery.

@Fishborn: what does "Multilaser +30" at the Carnodon mean? The four MLs together cost 30 more than now (so 60) or really each ML =35 points? And what does Lascannon -20 at the Carnodon and -75 at the Malcador mean?

Dukeofstuff wrote:

Instead of useless manticores and rather underperforming tauroxes, I would consider a third group with iotan gorgonnes to allow a near to the enemy drop (5.1 inches) in addition to the usual valkyrie based precsion drop. Probably with lots of meltas.

Alternatively, instead of taking Payload Manticores and going Cadian, take them, go Catachan/Gunnery Expert and add a Master of Ordonance. His one Heavy 6 artillery barrage per game alone is worth it imo.

So the Multilaser +30 means there is one base points cost for the model equipped with Multilasers that costs 30 more points than the 8th edition equipped similarly. If it has autocannons or volkite it costs -10 from last edition and if it has nothing but lascannon it's 20 points cheaper.

They made that one models rules have the most options.

Does that make sense?

Catachan is a pretty good alternative and the arty ordinance master a pretty good unit.

So .. if multilaser went up in price, did it go up in effect?

 Fishborne wrote:
So the Multilaser +30 means there is one base points cost for the model equipped with Multilasers that costs 30 more points than the 8th edition equipped similarly. If it has autocannons or volkite it costs -10 from last edition and if it has nothing but lascannon it's 20 points cheaper.

They made that one models rules have the most options.

Does that make sense?

That would be at least... surprising.
The old basecost of the Carnodon (after the last points update) was 60 + 2x5 +10 =80 points. With Quad AC/Volkite it was 120, the Quad LC variant was 60 + 4x20 = 140 points. If what you write should be true it would be 110 for Multilaser, Volkite, AC and 120 for Quad Lascannons. That would be... really weird, as MLs would be 15 points instead of 5. Unless they seriously buffed up Multilasers to play in the same weight class as the other heavy weapons like Autocannons, Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers.

 MinscS2 wrote:



The Macharius.
Did it even change? Still pretty bad, given it's cost and damage output. 2 regular Leman Russes will both outshoot it and outtank it. If they'd given it the Grinding Advance-rule I could see myself field it, as it would technically be like slamming two Leman Russes together into a single LoW, with slightly higher damage out put but lower resiliency. Now however you're essentially just spending 3 CP for a tank that offers nothing new and is worse point-for-point than our regular tanks...

The Macharius dropped 100 pts, gained twice the attacks, added Adamantium Tracks, and lost one point of strength. Twin battlecannon is still the same, 2d6, Str 8, -2ap, D6 damage. Has Steel Behemoth and Smoke Launchers as in the codex. Seems not too bad really anymore, but not great. 310 points out of the box.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
What is the rapier shooting like now?
I reckon the armaged medusa is a way to not have to lose warlord traits and command points just to beef up manticores. Or alternately, its a rather better third gun if your doctrine rerolls wound numbers, than either a 3rd manty or basi to pair with the obligatory 2 manticore full pay base.
Cyclops looks neat! (especially) to be a great "shake up the meta" asset. My competitive marine opponent friend is running an ultra elite infantry all primaris and most of them 40 points a model army these days, in a deathball. So tempting!

The rapier is 36" heavy 3 strength 10 ap -3 Dd3+3

 Fishborne wrote:
With the release of the imperial armor compendium and the points adjustments, a few options have opened up to make different styles of lists. I think since a lot of armies have been going anti-tank we can look at the rapier laser destroyer for our anti-tank, as well as the quad launcher for a wyvern stand in . Also the tarantula has been moved to a fortification and you can have 1-3 per slot.

Armageddon basilisk -5
Armageddon Medusa -5
Charadon (sp?) -10 Multilaser +30 lascannon -20
Bombard -20
Cyclops -10
Heavy mortar -10
Quad launcher -20
Malcador -70 lascannon -75
Malcador annihilator -70
Malcador defender -75
Malcador infernus -75
Rapier laser destroyer -15
Vendetta -5
Vulture -5 punisher cannons -35
Tarantula -10 lascannon -15

I'm looking at a cadian detachment for the tanks and artillery.

Liking the Infernus. 280 points with HF sponsons. 18" 3D6 str 7 AP 2 D 2 main gun.

Does not care about -hit modifiers.

Does not care about dropping a level on a damage table.

Retains full firepower if caught in melee.

The problem I have with cheap vehicles is that just bleed VPs because of Bring it Down.

The tarantula seems a surprisingly good shout now that the HB got +1D and the targeting rules got an update.

Any news on Thunderbolts? The Avenger strike fighter and Infernus sound tasty now.

Singleton Mosby 790726 10979446 c668726910b3673m5ac59a147d97dd2fa.png wrote:Any news on Thunderbolts? The Avenger strike fighter and Infernus sound tasty now.

https://youtu.be/Fvv14xVrYoM

Watch this in 1080p on a computer and you should be able to read just about the whole book. The thunderbolt didn't really jump out at me but I don't own one so I didn't look too hard, whereas I do have an Avenger so I took a careful look at it.

I had a chance to field my Kriegsoup for the first time since the changes yesterday, against the cheez Necron dynasty (obsec for all & 6" move before T1.)

On first blush I was obviousy gutted by what GW had done to the faction. So many cool units lost.

But then I started digging and there are some clear buffs for the faction, and there's a clear winner to my eyes: Death Rider Command Squadron. They kept A2, the lances went to -3 and flat D2 on the charge, and the horse kicks got a point of AP, which is all gravy. But the huge buff was to survivability: 3W, 4+/5+++ is a really tanky little profile for 15pts a model. (they also got nerfed with a WS4.) I took 3 squads of 4 and they did great work for me. DS Engineers were solid, and finally getting FRFSRF on my kriegers was awesome. Each team got a melta, and they did a bit of work. I managed to beat a pretty tasty Necron list (we had to finish up at T3 but it was looking very good).

Being fully honest, I run my Krieg with Guilliman for his glorious buff bubble. Previously I ran a big blob of Bullgryns to escort him, but Now I've dropped them for a 6-man squad of Bladeguard as Bobby gives them such a nice set of buffs.

So yeah, Krieg have probably improved overall - a terrible regimental doctrine but access to three very strong units: Engineers, Drills and DRC squads.

@ grouchoben: good to hear.

One thing for the sake of completeness: last page I posted very optimistic about Death Riders offensive output on the basis of them staying at 2 attacks each and the command squad getting 3 as GW so happily posted about "command squads being even better with +1 attack!".
As grouchoben posted, its the other way around as they reduced the number of attacks on the normal riders. Typical GW to turn this into a celebration.
It also seems as if the DKOK regimental standard giving cavalry +1 attack is gone so Death Riders went from 2-3 lance attacks at WS3+ to one at WS4+.

But as they also got much tougher one cannot really call it a nerf. With the new stats I assume its much less important to try and let them charge each round. When 10 Death Riders still produced 14 Lance hits it seemed important but now with 5.5... Not so much

Yeah exactly, they're a harrasment unit now, for good or for ill. One further nerf to their punch is that Krieg can no longer order cavalry now, as far as I can see. Bummer.

Still, assuming you're being shot by >T4 weaponry, each rider is roughly 100% tankier than their former iteration... That's a big deal. It means that if you tie a squad of no-frills intercessors in CC on turn one, your DRC Squad will still be standing at the end of the game.

 grouchoben wrote:
Yeah exactly, they're a harrasment unit now, for good or for ill. One further nerf to their punch is that Krieg can no longer order cavalry now, as far as I can see. Bummer.

Hopefully that is just an oversight and be fixed in an errata. Seems weird to have a Death Rider Commander being able to give orders to Infantry but not other Death Riders (inc themselves).

Especially as, with the squatting of Rough Riders, there are no other cavalry units in the IG roster...

I'd appreciate everyone's opinion on the Malcador Infernus. It's 250pts (or 260, can't quite make out on the video) which is a drop of 65-75pts. Also its main gun is now 3d6 instead of 2d6, S7 -2 2D, 18" range. Still T8, W18. Beefy, and perfect for the marine infestations we're experiencing.

This looks to me like it's approaching good... Only 30 or so pts more than a tank commander, and shoots effectively all the way down to 1W. Obviates Guard WS4+ problems. I know we're in the Eradicator meta at the moment, but anyone else see the appeal of this thing, other than its amazing model?

Definitly. I personally would still try to charge it into something as soon as possible. It can still shoot the infernogun in CC as far as I know and while sturdy, every Marine player that wants it dead, will have it dead. Bit charged in it might take some with him when exploding

I'm particularly interested as it's one of the only vehicles to serisouly benefit from the new Krieg doctrine (Hflamer sentinels, chimera and hellhounds being the others). If it roles a 4+ fine, it blows up doing 1d6 MW. If it doesn't you get another chance, with a 4+ to do another 3d6 auto-hitting shots. So you have a 75% chance to wreck something as it dies, so long as you made it within 6" of your opponent's force.

Hey all, I'm almost done building and painting my first 500 points. I was wondering if anybody had some thoughts about it.

Cadian Patrol

Tank Ace -1 cp

Tank Commander
-Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Warlord, Old Grudges, Relic of Lost Cadia, Uparmoured

3x10 Infantry
-Sargeant: Laspistol, Chainsword

1x3 Armoured Sentinels
-3x Missile Launcher, 1x Hunterkiller Missile

500 points 2 cp

Stratagems: Strike First + Strike Hard, Deft Maneuvering

Strike first, strike hard, no mercy, cobra kai never dies! I mean...

Basically its a sentinel bomb with cadian to hit buffs and old grudges with a TC thrown in.

I wanna punch the opponent in the mouth turn one and force them to pick between picking off my infantry or the armour. Classic guard I suppose.

Looks pretty solid so far. As you want to use strike first, strike hard you might try to squeeze in another 2 hunter killer missiles on the Sentinels. And if you expand your army I would recommend spreading the Relic and WL traits over more than one model. Bit dir a patrol: looks decent.

I could get an executioner turret and swap the lascannon for a heavy bolter on the tc for the extra hunterkillers on the sentinels but its a tough trade. The lascannon basically gives me one every turn. I'm open to the executioner though, I'll think about it.

Thanks for the advice! I'll make sure to spread the goodies around.

Alternatively you could swap one of the Sentinel ML for a Multilaser or two for autocannons to squeeze the HK missiles in. Some autocannons might be a practical alternative to the missile launchers. Or in the case of the Multilaser: it's pretty likely the Sentinels will be shot at pretty soon, and the first killed can be the Multilaser one. Also Multilaser Sentinels are less of a loss when you use them to charge something