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 ZergSmasher wrote:
Is the Battle Cannon not considered good anymore? I was under the impression that it used to be considered one of the best choices, at least until they buffed Demolishers.

Honestly if the battlecannon was damage 2 I'd run it a lot more, it's the reason I prefer the Executioner over it. With so many two wound models out there the 33% chance that you need two shots to kill a model really hurts and when the dice swing against you it can half your kills. Yeah there's things like death guard and dreadnaughts that hurt damage 2, but a weapon needs to have a downside and I think that's fair. The leman russ used to have a rule called ordnance that helped it do more consistent damage to vehicles, you could word it similar to the chainfist rule where it rolls d3 damage vs infantry and does flat 3 to vehicles and monsters, would be a good niche. Of course then you need to actually fix the vanquisher, but it already sucks so not much changes there

Honestly, when I run normal bs4+ tanks, I always run them as Demolishers now. Those tanks only need to land one or two solid hits to do some serious damage, so when you do hit, it really hurts. Not to mention the extra damage helps get through -1 damage and the FNP that are abundant now.

The battlecannon's issue is that everything it does well is done better by something else, and that it's generalist profile really isn't necessary anymore. You don't need the range, 9th eds tiny tables and terrain assure that. S8 is good, but done better with the executioner and Demolisher, ap 2 is good but again, Executioner and Demolisher, and the d3 damage is a weakness that GW seems to have acknowledged thanks to the change to powerfists and similar weapons. Unless the other variants get serious weaknesses built in other than range, or the battlecannon gets a price drop to reflect how common it's supposed to be, you're really better off served with the demolisher and close support variants from that kit than you are the bog standard Russ kit options.

Honestly, when I run normal bs4+ tanks, I always run them as Demolishers now. Those tanks only need to land one or two solid hits to do some serious damage, so when you do hit, it really hurts. Not to mention the extra damage helps get through -1 damage and the FNP that are abundant now.

On the other hand, a singular Demolisher shot is so much more mathematically valuable than a singular BC shot that you really don't want to miss it due to the standard Russ inferior (compared to a TC) hitting skills.
Also considering that a Demolisher's lifespan is probably 1-2 turns shorter than that of BC Russ.

All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.

Yeah. It's sad to see the variety that the LR has for weapons largely going to waste when compared to the big three of executioners, demolishers, and punishers. I think part of that has to do with power creep for certain weapons (Heavy bolters becoming D2 devaluing the exterminator and multi-meltas doing more consistent damage than the vanquisher cannon) but it's also that they really aren't optimized for the multi-wound meta we have now.

Vanquisher cannons ideally have a rule where they always have a +1 to hit modifier to reflect their accuracy, and a boost to 3+D3 damage which becomes a flat 6 total damage against units with the MONSTERS and VEHICLE keywords. Debating if it should also be boosted to S9, but that's dependent on the pricing on the Vanquisher.

Battle Cannons becoming flat damage 2 is probably good enough, maybe make them 2D3 shots rather than D6 to reduce variance and make it more reliable compared to the D6 shots a demolisher has.

Eradicator nova cannons are in a weird spot since single damage blast weapons aren't exactly great at horde clearing compared to what we already have with the Punisher. I could see them upping the amount of shots by making it 3D3 shots and having it ignore the benefits of dense and light cover for units it shoots at, so only obscuring terrain really does anything to protect enemy units. I'm not familiar with their price point right now, but they should be one of the cheapest options available so they don't look bad compared to the more versatile LR turret weapons.

The Exterminator should just have more shots, like 8 rather than 4. Partly debating if AP-2 is necessary given how little AP-1 seems to do nowadays, but that might step on the toes of other turret options.

If Battlecannons went to D3 then they'd have a great place in the armory. D2 they'd still be on the shelf, and in quite a few cases be worse than 1d3 (due to the new prevelance of damage reduction).

LR don't need to be more killy. That's not the AM style. Plus the game is already too alpha strike dependant as is.

They either need to be tougher or a cheaper.

The Imperium has entire planets dedicated to pumping our nothing but LRs. Make them 120 points (with guns) and suddenly there is no problem.

They are the T34, not the Tiger, of the WH40k world.

They're supposed to be tough as well.
They used to have AV14, more than pretty much all other main battle tanks of other factions.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They're supposed to be tough as well.
They used to have AV14, more than pretty much all other main battle tanks of other factions.

They had AV14 on the front. Sides were I think 13 and rear was 10/11 depending on the variant. So the front was tough to match the driving forward towards the enemy. I miss that mechanic. Made maundering your vehicles have meaning and require planning.

One thing lr bc has going for it is in fact range. Becaause you can screen it up with miles of infantry to block deepstrikes and if reallyclever use the board to get in an extra shot on a lot of targets. Its not got the pen of plasma or demo .. But ot has got the power and pene. To mess up a lot of intermediate enemy assets from range. Especially in a few matchups i have used the range on lr to pin enemy eradicators down behind far away cover. I couldnt shoot thwm twice but they would have been stuck being shot multipke times at range had they come for me... And then by very careful positioning the bc could shoot down the ither board half to support.

I still lost to marines but it was not the fault of my two bc tanks as any of the shorter range optio s would have probably eaten a charge and then been eradicated by meltaassault. So mg thought is...

Make the autocannon. Ariant fire 6 and grindfire 12 ac shots.
Make the battlecannon and demo cannon both ap2.. A slight nerf to an overly powerful demo gun
Let the plasma turret as is.
Give that sucky tankhunter full reroll to hit and flat six damage with three pen.. And remember its targets rarely hide well at any range.
Give s6 1ap d3 iggnore cover also indirect fire mode

Then. Limit any player to a max of three of any specific gun in turret. Cause interestinger

 Grimskul wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.

Yeah. It's sad to see the variety that the LR has for weapons largely going to waste when compared to the big three of executioners, demolishers, and punishers. I think part of that has to do with power creep for certain weapons (Heavy bolters becoming D2 devaluing the exterminator and multi-meltas doing more consistent damage than the vanquisher cannon) but it's also that they really aren't optimized for the multi-wound meta we have now.

Vanquisher cannons ideally have a rule where they always have a +1 to hit modifier to reflect their accuracy, and a boost to 3+D3 damage which becomes a flat 6 total damage against units with the MONSTERS and VEHICLE keywords. Debating if it should also be boosted to S9, but that's dependent on the pricing on the Vanquisher.

Battle Cannons becoming flat damage 2 is probably good enough, maybe make them 2D3 shots rather than D6 to reduce variance and make it more reliable compared to the D6 shots a demolisher has.

Eradicator nova cannons are in a weird spot since single damage blast weapons aren't exactly great at horde clearing compared to what we already have with the Punisher. I could see them upping the amount of shots by making it 3D3 shots and having it ignore the benefits of dense and light cover for units it shoots at, so only obscuring terrain really does anything to protect enemy units. I'm not familiar with their price point right now, but they should be one of the cheapest options available so they don't look bad compared to the more versatile LR turret weapons.

Nova cannon is probably the single most useless variant in the entire LR arsenal. There isn't a single possible scenario where an Executioner - same price, same range - wouldn't perform better. Simply put you can either shoot at target in cover with the nova cannon's S6 AP2 and negated cover rule - or you can shoot at it with the Executioner's S7/S8 AP3 and ignore the cover anyway.
It's arguably even worse than the Vanquisher, because the latter at least has an intented purpose, it's just that it's extremely bad at it.

If they really want to make the nova cannon the "anti-cover option", it absolutely needs a "re-roll hits" or "re-roll wounds" sort of rule against targets in cover.

 Esmer wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimskul wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.

Yeah. It's sad to see the variety that the LR has for weapons largely going to waste when compared to the big three of executioners, demolishers, and punishers. I think part of that has to do with power creep for certain weapons (Heavy bolters becoming D2 devaluing the exterminator and multi-meltas doing more consistent damage than the vanquisher cannon) but it's also that they really aren't optimized for the multi-wound meta we have now.

Vanquisher cannons ideally have a rule where they always have a +1 to hit modifier to reflect their accuracy, and a boost to 3+D3 damage which becomes a flat 6 total damage against units with the MONSTERS and VEHICLE keywords. Debating if it should also be boosted to S9, but that's dependent on the pricing on the Vanquisher.

Battle Cannons becoming flat damage 2 is probably good enough, maybe make them 2D3 shots rather than D6 to reduce variance and make it more reliable compared to the D6 shots a demolisher has.

Eradicator nova cannons are in a weird spot since single damage blast weapons aren't exactly great at horde clearing compared to what we already have with the Punisher. I could see them upping the amount of shots by making it 3D3 shots and having it ignore the benefits of dense and light cover for units it shoots at, so only obscuring terrain really does anything to protect enemy units. I'm not familiar with their price point right now, but they should be one of the cheapest options available so they don't look bad compared to the more versatile LR turret weapons.

Nova cannon is probably the single most useless variant in the entire LR arsenal. There isn't a single possible scenario where an Executioner - same price, same range - wouldn't perform better. Simply put you can either shoot at target in cover with the nova cannon's S6 AP2 and negated cover rule - or you can shoot at it with the Executioner's S7/S8 AP3 and ignore the cover anyway.
It's arguably even worse than the Vanquisher, because the latter at least has an intented purpose, it's just that it's extremely bad at it.

If they really want to make the nova cannon the "anti-cover option", it absolutely needs a "re-roll hits" or "re-roll wounds" sort of rule against targets in cover.

The Nova cannon was fine when it came out in 5th Ed. Any non-space marine army hated it then. But the way the game has evolved (changes to AP and cover) has left it in a situation where is did not benefit from any changes.

I think either fire indirect oer ignore all cover and hit modifiers could ... Or both ... Could reflect it bei g air burst and thus less power but less dependant on a direct hit. Probably the nutsos in gw imaginr ignore cover and ap1 already too powerfulfor gaurd...

What are the current thoughts on the strengths and weakness of each of the doctrines? What play-style/tactics work best with each? (ie gunline, mobile shoot-and-scoot, etc...) I had been using Mordian, but with the CP cost of overwatch I'm probably going to switch.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
What are the current thoughts on the strengths and weakness of each of the doctrines? What play-style/tactics work best with each? (ie gunline, mobile shoot-and-scoot, etc...) I had been using Mordian, but with the CP cost of overwatch I'm probably going to switch.

Alright, caveat I mostly play Catachans and Valhallans, sometimes run Cadians and custom regiments. Not going to cover custom regiments or stormtroopers here.

CadianStill the most powerful shooting in a gunline scenario. Most accurate, most orders, most tricks to get around accuracy. Cons are you are heavily penalized for moving with Cadians, you can still do it, but in a game as mobile as 9th you need to be moving

Catachans Probably the most competitive regiment as a pure army. You've got good shooting buffs, the only regiment with any real melee threat, and have some great utility characters in straken, Harker, and marbo, each one doing different things but well worth the price. Straken buffs melee, Harker buffs shooting, and marbo is great for things like deploy scramblers. Downside is they require a lot of characters to get their best mileage, so theyre very weak to assassinate

Mordians probably the worst regiment. Your regiment trait mostly does not function without strategem support, and it encourages you to bunch up and be b2b, making you vulnerable to melee and getting tagged in melee. Their order is nice with SWS/CCS/vets, but their strategem was horribly gimped and their other buffs are pretty bad. Better represented by a custom regiment

Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.

TallarnTheir regiment trait doesn't come up a ton, but has niche uses. Infantry can get the same effect with an order most of the time, the tanks trait basically never comes up. However their tank order is excellent, and their outflank ability is nice because they can come on the enemy's table edge, so it's a strictly superior reserves provided you take enough tanks to make it worth it.

Vostroyans The range increase can be handy if you lean into it, especially with Demolishers and punishers. Their strat is good as well, albeit you don't want to run shadowswords so it's not as much of a knockout punch as it used to be. Order is a worse version of Valhallans, but still better than punching the opponent with fix bayonets so it has a little use.

Armageddon got kneecapped a bit with the loss of the specialist detachments. Infantry trait is good, tank trait is ok, but not the best. Their order is basically just GW giving them a pity point so they can kind of use their transports as gunboats, except much worse than before. Same with strat.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.

How do you usually run your Valhallans?
They were my first IG regiment but I gave up on them throughout 8th Edi because it felt as if GW was systematically nefing all of their specialties (stratagem, Commissars, conscripts) into the ground. Their relic also seems less useful in 9th than in 8th (and is also kinda schizophrenical in that it effectively neutralizes their own regimental doctrine).
The way I could imagine them would be lots of foot-slogging infantry, lots of HWS with Platoon Commanders and bare-bone Russes with non-blast turret weapons.

What no krieg :p
Let me sum it up for you... no unique warlord trait, or strat, or relic or order.... regimental doctrine is unreliable and niche...
But they do have access to a marginally better company commander (marshal), decent death riders command squads and death rider commander, and niche grenade strat using deepstrike engineers... but all this doesn’t actually add enough to make them better then other regiments... hopefully krieg are added into the next codex...

I'm looking into a krieg death rider force backed up by smaller bullgrin squads to take objectives. And cadian thud gun/manticore artillery for the shooting part. Assorted character support with either yarrick and inquisitor to provide direct help to the front line or waves of scion dragons dropping in (marine 12" bubble of no deep strike makes them better than lions). As soon as battlescribe updates with the imperial armor compendium guard units I can put together a better list.

So I was pondering "how the heck do we fight things like those monstrous sword and shield guys" and then I realized something.

Crusaders suck, right? That's what everyone says and I disagree.

1 astropath (+1 save)
1 ministerium priest (aura) .. those are de rigueur for an army of gaurd in ninth, I think.

AND.

5 crusaders. (100 points) compare to 3 bullygrn at 129.
crusaders have a tepid 15 attacks with powerswords at s3, bullygrn whack away with 13 big swings at s7, right? and do more damage?

Enter the blade of conquest. Give it to a guy, and then pop acts of faith on this unit to permit it to do THIRTY attacks.
6 of them are now s5/-4/d3 and the other 24 of them are "tepid" (getting warmer) s3/-3/1. You throw them into melee (possibly exiting a chimera for an optional +2 to charge) and they reroll all attacks that miss, meaning they probably hit around 28 times.

Now the bullygrn -- so easily brought down by a few heavy shots designed to kill elite marines -- don't look so much better. Your pack of crusaders can kill more horde, but it can also do a damn fine job slicing up things like intercessors that don't necessarily come with a melee shield, OR anything else. Cause the B.O.C. gives you extra strength/damage kick. 4+/4++ armor with +1 on the die (stormshield) can become 3+/3++ (astropath) and then further tweak down to 2+/3++ (go to ground strat) .. with +1 on the die. So you basically negate the bolterfire ap-1 even if your opponent is in a lucky phase of the marine time of the month thing

This combo could be run down to a simple 2 crusader pair -- one guy to soak, one guy to kill. Its a combo you can reasonably use to whack an enemy officer, too, zipping in to fight a lieutenant or captain on pretty equal terms. Sure, the marine guy is slightly beefier, but you still got multiple bodies, and you WILL hit him, a LOT, with all those swings.

Maybe its even useful as an assassination storm group to go in and remove an apothecary the old fashioned way. By killing him to death.

You can't give a Crusader the blade of conquest because it has to be put on a character.

Powerswords hit at S4 now on crusaders. They're not a bad unit.

ah. poop, that's what I get for leaving my codex in the car and going by memmory. Even so, if you hit a unit of marines 28 or so times and force 14 saves against powerswords, I reckon that's six dead intercessors, which is more than your 5 crusaders cost you.

Yeh, I mean they're only getting 3 attacks each with the priest. The act of faith will only kick in if they are already in combat at the start of your turn which means they'd have had to have already survived a charge. Not so easy with just a 4++.

I think you need to measure their value as a unit that you're probably gonna throw into a charge and not have much left by your next turn. The fight again, or even revival abilities are cute but you're unlikely to have much left when the time comes back around.

More useful is the move shenanigans you can do with them. Essentially move twice then charge although even that is limited as they will more than likely be in a transport at the beginning of your turn.

So comparing to bulgryns you're looking at:
120pts for 12 S4 -3 1D rerolling hits
129pts for 10 S7 -1 2D

They're both on a 4++ except bulgryns are T5 and 9w as opposed to T3 and 6w total. I do still like crusaders but I don't think they really compare favourably to bullgryn. They're not even any easier to transport.

Note that the Bullgryn also get +1A on the charge, so three Bullgryn have 13 attacks when charging.

I am curious why you can't use act of faith unless already in combat? You have to pick it at the start of your fight phase, sure, but (I confess the book is outside in 40ish degree rain in a car parked sooo far away) but I thought you coudl designate it on your target even if not in melee yet?

You have to be within an inch of an enemy model to use it. And acts of faith happen at the start of your turn not start of the fight phase I'm afraid.
Probably all gonna change anyway to conform with the sisters rules in someway

I thought the codex astra "indexed" acts of faith now used the beta sisters model, not the index index model? Gods, so confusing.

 Esmer wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.

How do you usually run your Valhallans?
They were my first IG regiment but I gave up on them throughout 8th Edi because it felt as if GW was systematically nefing all of their specialties (stratagem, Commissars, conscripts) into the ground. Their relic also seems less useful in 9th than in 8th (and is also kinda schizophrenical in that it effectively neutralizes their own regimental doctrine).
The way I could imagine them would be lots of foot-slogging infantry, lots of HWS with Platoon Commanders and bare-bone Russes with non-blast turret weapons.

Still figuring them out in 8th. Obviously you run lots of infantry, usually I do infantry squads and say 1 to 2 conscript blobs. Company Commander babysits conscripts with the pistol and their job is really just to screen, infantry squads is second screen. 3 line is your tanks and specialist infantry like SWS, CCS, and HWS mortars. Ideally I run plasma and mortars, the idea being that these squads will inevitably be clearing enemies off of tanks so you want to avoid melta. Plasma will hurt, but with your tank trait you can take a few plasma hits, not so with melta.

As for tanks themselves I prefer a mix of Executioner and Demolisher with the obligatory manticores. Since Valhallans don't get much in way of firepower buffs I don't fool with regular Russe's anymore unless I'm playing narrative. I know people here like punishers but honestly I find them abysmal in such a marine heavy meta. I understand a punisher volley should kill almost 4 marines, and the heavy bolters should kill another 2 or so, but I just have so many shots bounce off armor saves. Basically the inverse of the executioner, I just feel unlucky with it. I should probably give them another shot. A single punisher would be good to have for a horde.

The local Blood Angels player also insists I should try a couple of heavy flamer chimeras to either stick my special weapons in or screen with. Im skeptical they'll do much for the price but given they never degrade and can fire in melee maybe he's on to something. It would give me another infantry delivery option than just reserves, although I find coming on from a table edge is usually perfect for my plasma as is.

The big problem with the Valhallans is not that they lack punch or durability, but that they just struggle to make it past the mid point of the board. Honestly my meta is so aggressive almost every game devolves into a desperate melee in my deployment turn one. The boards got smaller, the models got faster, and my deployment zones are skinnier, and it's just hard to recover from there

Are you using astropaths to strip cover?

Yeah, I think punishers suck in this meta, too, which is sort of not their fault. I prefer a triple heavy flamer tank with a demolisher on top, a storm bolter, and a bad attitude to go with its master mechanic tank ace.

If I were running valhalla, which I am NOT, I would definitely put a few crusaders in my mix, and meltas. cause firing those meltas (low shot count) into the crusaders, you can strip a lot of heavy marines off fast, at slight risk to your own goal. A single 10 man crusader group with a +1 save built in is a fairly awesome midboard blocker, with go to ground, its got serious "nope" potential against bolters, and if they spend 120 bolters to try to kill 10 crusaders? That's about 90 other gaurdsmen who didn't die this round.

I would personally NEVER take Special Weapon Squads in HF Chimeras when Veterans with Hades Breaching Drills exist, Leman Russ Demolishers when 3x Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery have a bit less durability but superb damage in comparison (and still 36" range so even with 4" movement you can still outrange 5,99" +24"/30" Demolishers)

The loss of mobility is critical in ninth. Leman russes -- especially my beloved tallarn ones -- can corner around obstacles that would leave the rapiers pointed at a wall and not firing for turn after turn. This is not a minor concern.

I do concede the drills are awesome, though.