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DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Re: no point in the multilaser, maybe taking it to fish for 6s? No clue if it'd be worth it. I'm not going to dig into the math, but it's a thought

Not worth it. Against anything you don't already wound on a 2+ (making auto-wounds mostly irrelevant) other weapons are going to be better. Multilasers have no reason to exist anymore.

They might find a niche if they get more shots though. I (personal opinion) would apreciate if they adjust them upwards together with their points cost to just match the 15 (?) points of heavy bolter/Flamer/Autocannon. Like... somewhere between Heavy 4 and Heavy 6 S4-6/0/1 for 15 points? It would still be worse than heavy bolters against anything with a serious armor save, but better against 1W models. If GW is so hellbend on unifying heavy weapons points costs, they might as well go the whole way. Also I don't think dropping lascannons to 15 points would be the end of days. Slap some kind of slight bonus on the AC to make it a real alternative to a similarly priced heavy bolter and you could have all guard heavy weapons the same price.

I assume all this free stuff will go away once we get our codex...these strike me as quick bandages to help us limp along

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
I assume all this free stuff will go away once we get our codex...these strike me as quick bandages to help us limp along

I don't know. A lot of Nid units have free wargear. A ton of other units in other factions got free wargear too. Like assault marines.

Hmmm... well then prepare to color me wrong heh. Wasn't aware of the free wargear in other factions (it's been ages since I've played anything other than guard, although I've started putting together a sisters list recently)

It's the first actual step in GW "merging" PL and Points.

Taking bets on the Baneblade going to a 2+ in the balance dataslate?

No?

Okay.

 MinscS2 wrote:
It's the first actual step in GW "merging" PL and Points.

I mean... would it really be any less balanced if they just did away with points in the next balance dataslate? (this is, of course, intended as a dig at the current state of 40k balance)

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
I assume all this free stuff will go away once we get our codex...these strike me as quick bandages to help us limp along

Yeah this is the thought that has me wondering. I think waiting for the codex to see how it is going to be before redoing all my equipment choices. Mashing a HWT into an infantry squad gives me 2 spare guardsmen, after doing all my squads I'll have enough guardsmen for another squad. But if this changes back in a few months, I don't want to have to redo it al over again to avoid a massive point hike or something.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Taking bets on the Baneblade going to a 2+ in the balance dataslate?

No?

Okay.

Well hot damn... It actually happened. All IG Titanic models now have a 2+

LRBT plus Baneblades &Co having 2+ armour then armour of contempt on top of that is bonkers. This is too much, this is unfair, this is stupid rules without fluff or realistic basis and feels bad. They are stupid rules on top of stupid rules, made for moving performance cursors, to compensate for even more stupid rules from other factions.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
LRBT plus Baneblades &Co having 2+ armour then armour of contempt on top of that is bonkers. This is too much, this is unfair, this is stupid rules without fluff or realistic basis and feels bad. They are stupid rules on top of stupid rules, made for moving performance cursors, to compensate for even more stupid rules from other factions.

But... They don't have Armor of Contempt.

That's for Marines (Loyalist and Chaos) and Sisters.

Edit: Nevermind, they do get it.

AoC for ALL vehicles at least that's what I read there) also makes the vehicle part of the armageddon doctrine kind of pointless? Or does AP -2 first gets reduced to AP-1 by AoC and then dropped to 0 by the doctrine?

Hehe, Armored Sentinels with 'Armor of Contempt' - will be a little harder to kill - for no good reason!
Helps Valkyries too.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
AoC for ALL vehicles at least that's what I read there) also makes the vehicle part of the armageddon doctrine kind of pointless? Or does AP -2 first gets reduced to AP-1 by AoC and then dropped to 0 by the doctrine?

You apply the rules for modifying the caracteristics (page 61 of mini-rulebook, Chapter Approved 2020, don't know the page for BRB). If a rule demands to replace a specific value by another fixed value, replace it first before applying the other modifiers (multiplication/add/minus). So AP-1 is replaced by Armageddon Steel legion for AP-0, then Armour of contempt reduces it to AP+1, which is impossible because AP is at worst 0, so AP-0. For AP-2, it is untouched by Armagueddon Steel Legion trait, then reduced to AP-1 by armour of contempt.

Conclusion, Armageddon Steel Legion vehicle trait does nothing now. Take disciplined shooters and a second trait of your convenance from Psychic Awakening.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
AoC for ALL vehicles at least that's what I read there) also makes the vehicle part of the armageddon doctrine kind of pointless? Or does AP -2 first gets reduced to AP-1 by AoC and then dropped to 0 by the doctrine?

You apply the rules for modifying the caracteristics (page 61 of mini-rulebook, Chapter Approved 2020, don't know the page for BRB). If a rule demands to replace a specific value by another fixed value, replace it first before applying the other modifiers (multiplication/add/minus). So AP-1 is replaced by Armageddon Steel legion for AP-0, then Armour of contempt reduces it to AP+1, which is impossible because AP is at worst 0, so AP-0. For AP-2, it is untouched by Armagueddon Steel Legion trait, then reduced to AP-1 by armour of contempt.

Conclusion, Armageddon Steel Legion vehicle trait does nothing now. Take disciplined shooters and a second trait of your convenance from Psychic Awakening.

what if you still want the armageddon order and stratagem?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
AoC for ALL vehicles at least that's what I read there) also makes the vehicle part of the armageddon doctrine kind of pointless? Or does AP -2 first gets reduced to AP-1 by AoC and then dropped to 0 by the doctrine?

You apply the rules for modifying the caracteristics (page 61 of mini-rulebook, Chapter Approved 2020, don't know the page for BRB). If a rule demands to replace a specific value by another fixed value, replace it first before applying the other modifiers (multiplication/add/minus). So AP-1 is replaced by Armageddon Steel legion for AP-0, then Armour of contempt reduces it to AP+1, which is impossible because AP is at worst 0, so AP-0. For AP-2, it is untouched by Armagueddon Steel Legion trait, then reduced to AP-1 by armour of contempt.

Conclusion, Armageddon Steel Legion vehicle trait does nothing now. Take disciplined shooters and a second trait of your convenance from Psychic Awakening.

what if you still want the armageddon order and stratagem?

Which are rather weak... So you are screwed.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
AoC for ALL vehicles at least that's what I read there) also makes the vehicle part of the armageddon doctrine kind of pointless? Or does AP -2 first gets reduced to AP-1 by AoC and then dropped to 0 by the doctrine?

You apply the rules for modifying the caracteristics (page 61 of mini-rulebook, Chapter Approved 2020, don't know the page for BRB). If a rule demands to replace a specific value by another fixed value, replace it first before applying the other modifiers (multiplication/add/minus). So AP-1 is replaced by Armageddon Steel legion for AP-0, then Armour of contempt reduces it to AP+1, which is impossible because AP is at worst 0, so AP-0. For AP-2, it is untouched by Armagueddon Steel Legion trait, then reduced to AP-1 by armour of contempt.

Conclusion, Armageddon Steel Legion vehicle trait does nothing now. Take disciplined shooters and a second trait of your convenance from Psychic Awakening.

what if you still want the armageddon order and stratagem?

Which are rather weak... So you are screwed.

ain't nothing weak about being able to escape from a combat that you can't Fall Back from.

2+ save to Titanics, AoC for our vehicles, Hammer of the Emperor working on stuff like Ogryns, Ratlings, Scions, etc (like it should've had done when the rule was introduced) are all more than welcome buffs.

Without sounding to whiny, the core-problem with IG remains though; Playing around objectives.

I don't fault GW for not being able to fix this with mere points-adjustments and some bandaids. We'll probably have to wait for our next codex for that big gashing wound gets sutured.

Marauder Bombers and Marauder Destroyers have a 2+ save and AOC now....

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marauder Bombers and Marauder Destroyers have a 2+ save and AOC now....

...Do it again, Bomber Harris?
Or, wait, are Marauders still unable to seriously damage target units? Might need that fixed before going all RAF+8th AAF.

 waefre_1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marauder Bombers and Marauder Destroyers have a 2+ save and AOC now....

...Do it again, Bomber Harris?
Or, wait, are Marauders still unable to seriously damage target units? Might need that fixed before going all RAF+8th AAF.

That bad huh?

Oof.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marauder Bombers and Marauder Destroyers have a 2+ save and AOC now....

...Do it again, Bomber Harris?
Or, wait, are Marauders still unable to seriously damage target units? Might need that fixed before going all RAF+8th AAF.

That bad huh?

Oof.

Yeah, according to one Mr. Waha, looks like the bombs are still pointless (tl;dr - bombs only do a few mortals, and then only on a 4+ at best). Bummer.

D3 mortal wounds to units within 6" or 9" of a single point on the board. Maybe. Super scary.

 necrontyrOG wrote:
D3 mortal wounds to units within 6" or 9" of a single point on the board. Maybe. Super scary.

Oh I wasn't thinking for bombs, I was thinking for the 2x hellstrike missiles, 6 twin autocannons, twin assault cannon, and twin heavy bolter.

Oh the Marauder Destroyer! It's a bit better, still don't think it's two Leman Russ's points values worth. Sure does look cool AF though.

The Marauder Destroyer might be a better way to go if you're determined to rain hell.

No 'primary weapon' like a baneblade cannon but the equivalent of two missile launchers, six autocannons two heavy bolters and two assault cannons is quite a bit of secondary firepower.

Plus one heavy bomb for the unlikely situation you ever catch a tonne of units in a 6" bubble

With HotE I don't know why fleets of Storm Lords and Punisher tanks aren't flooding the meta? Stormlords have to be the overwhelming favorite now for the Superheavy variants?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
With HotE I don't know why fleets of Storm Lords and Punisher tanks aren't flooding the meta? Stormlords have to be the overwhelming favorite now for the Superheavy variants?

Well, you have to factor that Stormlords still aren't that hot with -1D and AoC being around, it often being effectively made into a S6 AP-1 D1 gun that even with HoE can be pretty underwhelming against some of the hard targets in the game.

What horde army has access to table wide -1 damage, for the entire game? Also, pick the form of your destructor. Either you fall to the Gatling cannons, or the HBs chugging out 12-30 shots per shooting phase.