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Competitive Space Marine Anti-Tank that is not a Contemptor Dreadnaught or Eradicators?

Thoughts?

I'd hang on and see how the Gladiator tank works out. Decent chance they come out somewhat over tuned!

For much of 8th I've relied on a mix of Lascannons, Grav-Cannons, and Plasma Cannons. For units, Plasma Cannon and Grav Cannon Devastators. For Lascannons, I've become quite fond of Razorbacks with Twin Lascannon and Hunter Killer Missiles. I tend to throw Grav Cannons or Lascannons into my Tactical Squads as well.

I'll give a shout out to Venerable Dreadnoughts as well, the BS 2+ is strong. I don't have mine painted, so I don't use it, but it's always seemed like a decent option.

For 9th ed, it looks like the Predator tank will be more competitively priced, and will be able to fire on the move (like all vehicles now) without penalty. This makes it another good contender for AT work.


This is all Classic Marine stuff though, I don't use Primaris.

+1 on the ven dread. Are you looking for ranged anti-tank only? Because there are plenty of CC AV options out there for the marines.

Also if your running other rhino-chassis or ironclads don't forget HK missiles. Relatively cheap at 5 points, I have 7 HK's in my list for some additional first turn punch before my army closes to shorter range.

MM Attack Bikes with the new MM rules.

MM Landspeeders could also be a thing, being able to fly over LOS blocking cover when ready.

Eliminator Las Fusils

Which doctrine will you be spending most of your time in?

Dev Doctrine points to MM FA or Fusils

Tactical Doctrine would suggest a squad of old marines with Melta or grav. You used to be able to pack bike and command squads with special weapons.

Assault Doctrine would point to some fisty hammering Vanguard Vets. Working like the landspeeder.

Breton wrote:
MM Attack Bikes with the new MM rules.

MM Landspeeders could also be a thing, being able to fly over LOS blocking cover when ready.

Eliminator Las Fusils

Which doctrine will you be spending most of your time in?

Dev Doctrine points to MM FA or Fusils

Tactical Doctrine would suggest a squad of old marines with Melta or grav. You used to be able to pack bike and command squads with special weapons.

Assault Doctrine would point to some fisty hammering Vanguard Vets. Working like the landspeeder.

well given the FAQ you only spend turn one in devestator doctrine, 1-2 turns in tactica;, and 2-3 turns in assault.

You don’t get to pick when you change anymore? Sigh. Everything is stupid again.


In that case moving on, what chapter tactics?

With the changes to MultiMelta (2 shots, D6+2 at half range) would a regular Dreadnought with MM suddenly be useful again?

 dadx6 wrote:
With the changes to MultiMelta (2 shots, D6+2 at half range) would a regular Dreadnought with MM suddenly be useful again?

The MM on any dread had the issue of just not being much firepower at all. Getting twice the shots now (even assuming it goes up to 40-50pts) means that it might be worth it as a short ranged alternative to the twin lascan.

Plus if it survives a round of combat, in the shooting phase you can unleash 2 S8, AP-4, D6+2 shots into whatever charged it. Or whatever it charged.

I think my dreadnoughts are coming back out of the box...

AOBR chonknaut is now what peak performance looks like.

nekooni wrote:

 dadx6 wrote:
With the changes to MultiMelta (2 shots, D6+2 at half range) would a regular Dreadnought with MM suddenly be useful again?

The MM on any dread had the issue of just not being much firepower at all. Getting twice the shots now (even assuming it goes up to 40-50pts) means that it might be worth it as a short ranged alternative to the twin lascan.

Aren't there FW dreads that can have two multi melta and a drop pod that can carry dreadnoughts? droping one near the enemy shoting 4 times, isn't bad, on top of it now one can't just easy clog it with an msu unit, because now the dreads could blast 4 times with its melta at point blank range.

 dadx6 wrote:
With the changes to MultiMelta (2 shots, D6+2 at half range) would a regular Dreadnought with MM suddenly be useful again?

Source on that?

Throw three darts at a pin up of every unit in the dex and you’ll probably land on at least one thing that can do the role as good or better than a Xenos alternative

Breton wrote:
You don’t get to pick when you change anymore? Sigh. Everything is stupid again.


In that case moving on, what chapter tactics?

Yeah, that got addressed in an FAQ some time ago. It's honestly for the best. Some chapters could really abuse staying in the same doctrine all game.

There's still a strategem to go back one doctrine for a turn though.

The Newman wrote:

 dadx6 wrote:
With the changes to MultiMelta (2 shots, D6+2 at half range) would a regular Dreadnought with MM suddenly be useful again?

Source on that?

New Primaris ATV's standard Multi-Melta.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Throw three darts at a pin up of every unit in the dex and you’ll probably land on at least one thing that can do the role as good or better than a Xenos alternative

Good luck with that, seeing fusion Tau commander is still by far one of the most broken garbage in the game (and now with other HQs going to one per army, it doesn't even have the excuse of being 'balanced' by its limited status anymore, not that the Tau had any problems ignoring that rule with allying Farsight units in). Ditto with Eldar, they still have stuff that makes virtually all marine options save for FW junk look like lasguns, not that you'd hear anything objective from SM complainer revisionists.

With my SW ranged anti tank is a unit of Long Fangs with lascannons (missile launchers in 8th but now they have the same cost), Stormfang Gunship and occasionally Razorbacks with twin lascannons, as I rely on the twin assault cannon option more often. Bjorn also have a ranged anti tank weapon. Plasma on infantry is just bonus.

Predators, Land Speeders and Dreads are good for SM, I don't own the models, but they are definitely solid.

Karol wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 dadx6 wrote:
With the changes to MultiMelta (2 shots, D6+2 at half range) would a regular Dreadnought with MM suddenly be useful again?

The MM on any dread had the issue of just not being much firepower at all. Getting twice the shots now (even assuming it goes up to 40-50pts) means that it might be worth it as a short ranged alternative to the twin lascan.

Aren't there FW dreads that can have two multi melta and a drop pod that can carry dreadnoughts? droping one near the enemy shoting 4 times, isn't bad, on top of it now one can't just easy clog it with an msu unit, because now the dreads could blast 4 times with its melta at point blank range.

Relic and mortis contemptors as well as mortis boxed ones can carry two MM, but you're giving up your ccw for that - and you still have to get within 24" to shoot them, so close combat is inevitable.

Shooting your 4 melta shots into an infantry squad at point blank IS being clogged though. You're losing an entire round of blowing up something worthwhile,and without a CCW you're not going to finish the job in the melee phase either. Not that a ccw would help all that much in that case

and now with other HQs going to one per army

What's this now?


As far as other dreads - if the ask is "competitive" anti-tank, then probably not. Unless you take 3, and honestly, probably 3 Venerables so they don't degrade. They can bring accurate anti-tank shooting to be sure, but if you're talking just 1, it won't last long in a competitive environment.

As others have said, I've had luck bringing las cannons on various vehicles. My current list uses two Storm Talons, but that's going to be highly dependent on what the rest of your list is.

EDIT:

When I say "other dreads", I'm specifically speaking about other dreads from the codex proper. You CAN do some crazy stuff w/FW dreads, but I'd avoid anything FW for now as it's unclear how those rules and models are going to shake out.

 Irbis wrote:
Good luck with that, seeing fusion Tau commander is still by far one of the most broken garbage in the game (and now with other HQs going to one per army, it doesn't even have the excuse of being 'balanced' by its limited status anymore, not that the Tau had any problems ignoring that rule with allying Farsight units in). Ditto with Eldar, they still have stuff that makes virtually all marine options save for FW junk look like lasguns, not that you'd hear anything objective from SM complainer revisionists.

Boy oh boy, I feel another math post showing how fusion commanders can't hold a candle to Eradicators coming on...

Genuinely curious about what the Eldar wunderkind anti-tank options are, though. Certainly isn't Dark Reapers anymore.

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Breton wrote:
You don’t get to pick when you change anymore? Sigh. Everything is stupid again.


In that case moving on, what chapter tactics?

Yeah, that got addressed in an FAQ some time ago. It's honestly for the best. Some chapters could really abuse staying in the same doctrine all game.

There's still a strategem to go back one doctrine for a turn though.

Nope, they got rid of that one in the FAQ too instead of just making it once per game because screw Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, AND Dark Angels.

Grav Devastators

 catbarf wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Good luck with that, seeing fusion Tau commander is still by far one of the most broken garbage in the game (and now with other HQs going to one per army, it doesn't even have the excuse of being 'balanced' by its limited status anymore, not that the Tau had any problems ignoring that rule with allying Farsight units in). Ditto with Eldar, they still have stuff that makes virtually all marine options save for FW junk look like lasguns, not that you'd hear anything objective from SM complainer revisionists.

Boy oh boy, I feel another math post showing how fusion commanders can't hold a candle to Eradicators coming on...

Genuinely curious about what the Eldar wunderkind anti-tank options are, though. Certainly isn't Dark Reapers anymore.

I was going to ask the same thing, what are these eldar units that are putting out ungodly amounts of dakka?

Is this for realsies? There are so many SM units in that role. Scorpius, Lev dread, Deredeo, Grav Devs, Executioners, Repulsors, the brand new Gladius, the brand new buggy, Smash Caps, Sicarans, Razorbacks, Xiphons, Plazceptors, plazminators, etc etc.

There are over 100 units in the codex now, before chapter-unique entries.

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Breton wrote:
You don’t get to pick when you change anymore? Sigh. Everything is stupid again.


In that case moving on, what chapter tactics?

Yeah, that got addressed in an FAQ some time ago. It's honestly for the best. Some chapters could really abuse staying in the same doctrine all game.

There's still a strategem to go back one doctrine for a turn though.

Yeah, but that’s stupid, chapters were supposed to hang out in a matching doctrine. And they didn’t fix the abilities that pairs up with their matching doctrine.


As for Dreads... I wouldn’t do it. Pound for pound you’ll get more bang out of a speeder. Speeders are smaller. Speeders are faster. They’re in theory cheaper. Razorback spam also has some potential.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Breton wrote:
You don’t get to pick when you change anymore? Sigh. Everything is stupid again.


In that case moving on, what chapter tactics?

Yeah, that got addressed in an FAQ some time ago. It's honestly for the best. Some chapters could really abuse staying in the same doctrine all game.

There's still a strategem to go back one doctrine for a turn though.

Nope, they got rid of that one in the FAQ too instead of just making it once per game because screw Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, AND Dark Angels.

Oooof, I totally missed that line. That does seem a bit more punishing...I didn't get the sense that two turns in the same doctrine was that strong.

Breton wrote:

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Breton wrote:
You don’t get to pick when you change anymore? Sigh. Everything is stupid again.


In that case moving on, what chapter tactics?

Yeah, that got addressed in an FAQ some time ago. It's honestly for the best. Some chapters could really abuse staying in the same doctrine all game.

There's still a strategem to go back one doctrine for a turn though.

Yeah, but that’s stupid, chapters were supposed to hang out in a matching doctrine. And they didn’t fix the abilities that pairs up with their matching doctrine.


As for Dreads... I wouldn’t do it. Pound for pound you’ll get more bang out of a speeder. Speeders are smaller. Speeders are faster. They’re in theory cheaper. Razorback spam also has some potential.

No, they explicitly were not. The entire description of doctrines was how space marines' standard style of war had them transitioning from Devastator, to Tactical, to Assault doctrine. Sitting in devastator the whole game with your imp fists getting crazy bonuses was explicitly counter to the fluff GW invented as the excuse to hand out these special rules.

And on top of that if and ih are still fine even without sitting in dev doctrine all day.

Literally every single faction with a doctrine is still fine after the doctrine change. Only the truly awful players feel their Marine army is some low tier struggle faction, no player worth their salt would dare be caught whining about one of those armies being too weak.