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Given the current state of morale checks in 9th the Night Lords legion trait is essentially obsolete. I took the time to craft a new one that is both balanced relative to the other legion traits in the csm codex and also thematically fitted to the Nightlords as a concept.
The new new Legion Trait rule would read as follows: Whenever a unit falls back from a unit with this rule they lose 1 toughness for each model that fell back until the next battleround.
This goes with the terror squad style of the NLs punishing units for falling out of combat and picking them off as they flee, unlike Ld tests it will apply reliably every game and won't be mitigated by fearless rules and the mitigated loses of failed morale checks in 9th.
Let me know what you think if this is something that's fair and balanced and if you like it overall.
I'd always imagined it differently. In lore, Night lords favour engagements where they have the numbers advantage, so some kind of bonus based on this would be fluffy, like +1 to hit or wound or reroll 1's if you outnumber your opponent.
For the second part, I imagined enemy models fleeing on attrition tests on 1 and 2's, instead of just 1, or D3 models are removed for failing the initial test instead of just 1 regardless of other effects.
Tristanleo wrote: I'd always imagined it differently. In lore, Night lords favour engagements where they have the numbers advantage, so some kind of bonus based on this would be fluffy, like +1 to hit or wound or reroll 1's if you outnumber your opponent.
For the second part, I imagined enemy models fleeing on attrition tests on 1 and 2's, instead of just 1, or D3 models are removed for failing the initial test instead of just 1 regardless of other effects.
+1 to hit and wound if you outnumber the unit your engaged with. And jump troops and terminators each count as 2 models. It's called A Talent For Murder, it's the Night Lords trait in HH, and it's great. Don't know why gw can't look at their other games for inspiration.
Tristanleo wrote: I'd always imagined it differently. In lore, Night lords favour engagements where they have the numbers advantage, so some kind of bonus based on this would be fluffy, like +1 to hit or wound or reroll 1's if you outnumber your opponent.
For the second part, I imagined enemy models fleeing on attrition tests on 1 and 2's, instead of just 1, or D3 models are removed for failing the initial test instead of just 1 regardless of other effects.
+1 to hit and wound if you outnumber the unit your engaged with. And jump troops and terminators each count as 2 models. It's called A Talent For Murder, it's the Night Lords trait in HH, and it's great. Don't know why gw can't look at their other games for inspiration.
This one seems too strong since you can outnumber alot of stuff including monsters, hq's and vehicles which would yield a huge buff. Maybe something simpler than my original post would be falling back costs d3 mortal wounds, immediately punishing falling back.
Tristanleo wrote: I'd always imagined it differently. In lore, Night lords favour engagements where they have the numbers advantage, so some kind of bonus based on this would be fluffy, like +1 to hit or wound or reroll 1's if you outnumber your opponent.
For the second part, I imagined enemy models fleeing on attrition tests on 1 and 2's, instead of just 1, or D3 models are removed for failing the initial test instead of just 1 regardless of other effects.
+1 to hit and wound if you outnumber the unit your engaged with. And jump troops and terminators each count as 2 models. It's called A Talent For Murder, it's the Night Lords trait in HH, and it's great. Don't know why gw can't look at their other games for inspiration.
This one seems too strong since you can outnumber alot of stuff including monsters, hq's and vehicles which would yield a huge buff. Maybe something simpler than my original post would be falling back costs d3 mortal wounds, immediately punishing falling back.
Uh that wouldn't be strong at all.
Personally I'm for "Each casualty counts as two for morale purposes and any natural 6 to hit automatically wounds" with the latter covering the dirty fighters portion.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
When NL Force a Morale test 1 model is removed for each point by which that test is failed. No exceptions. Fearless etc do not negate this (though they do ignore Attrition as normal)
Also all Legions get their trait on everything. So infuriating it's limited to such a small subsection of the options.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
brazenjaw wrote: Given the current state of morale checks in 9th the Night Lords legion trait is essentially obsolete. I took the time to craft a new one that is both balanced relative to the other legion traits in the csm codex and also thematically fitted to the Nightlords as a concept.
The new new Legion Trait rule would read as follows: Whenever a unit falls back from a unit with this rule they lose 1 toughness for each model that fell back until the next battleround.
...
Let me know what you think if this is something that's fair and balanced and if you like it overall.
Probably not the direction I'd go. If I"m reading this correctly, it means a 5 man squad of aeldari would end up being Toughness -2 (3 - 5 = -2)? Even assuming that stops at Toughness 1, it's still crazy good. The shadowseer's aura of -1 to wound is considered a very powerful ability. So is the Blood Angels' chapter tactic that grants +1 to wound. Suddenly letting cultists wound fleeing marines on a 2+ is probably quite a bit too good.
Also the "until the next battleround" part probably doesn't work the way you intend for it to. The end of the battleround occurs at the end of the second player's turn. So if the night lords player goes first, it means their opponent would be falling back at the bottom of the turn, and that means the night lords player would only benefit from this rule if they somehow had a chance to attack the unit that had just fallen back. Which is possible (some units can charge after falling back, for instance), but at that point, the "fleeing" unit isn't really fleeing any more.
Ideally, I'd like morale to prevent units that fail morale tests from benefitting from certain buffs and stratagems. If that were the case, then a simple leadership penalty like the one NLs give now would be flavorful and useful. Short of that, counting casualties as double would make it easy to consistently inflict a couple extra casualties each turn. Some sort of to-wound bonus for outnumbering the enemy or whatever sounds like a cool "legion doctrine" rule.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
How about just getting rid of Legion Traits? In any case, I think subtracting 1 for each model in a unit is silly, instead, I think it should be something like +1 to hit the fleeing unit and -1 to hit any Night Lords units within 1" of the unit that fell back if you want to stick with the punishing falling back theme.
I see a lot in the fluff of Night Lords about doing ambushes and setting up traps, something that is not anywhere in the crunch as far as I can see. Maybe, just maybe you can stretch the Hit and Run Stratagem to be an ambush tactic. Both preying on the weak and morale warfare are represented by the Prey on the Weak and Flay Them Alive Stratagems respectively.
Having ambushes being the Night Lords thing makes the most sense to me, it's not as Morale dependent as the current rule and Night Lords already have Stratagems dedicated to dealing with enemies that might want to fall back with the We Have Come for You Stratagem.
I can't come up with a good representation of ambush tactics, the only thing I can think of is giving Night Lords always strikes first like the Flawless Perfection trait Emperor's Children currently get and then find something more fitting for them as well. This would represent the Night Lords having goaded their enemies into attacking them and then getting to strike first regardless. Add some kind of ability that buffs attacks against units that are near an objective to represent Night Lords setting up the battlefield with captured prisoners or important technology only to strike once the enemy goes to secure it.
NIGHT LORDS: DESCENT OF CLAWS
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls made for NIGHT LORDS units that charged this turn if the target is within 3" of an objective.
EMPEROR’S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Once per phase you may turn one failed wound roll into a successful wound roll for each unit with this trait.
Spoilered rework of all the legions.
Spoiler:
ALPHA LEGION: HIDDEN OPERATIVES
Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you gain 1 CP the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in any of your Movement phases, Psychic phases, Shooting phases, Charge phases and Fight phases and the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in any of your opponent's Movement phases, Psychic phases, Shooting phases, Charge phases and Fight phases.
BLACK LEGION: BLACK CRUSADERS
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
DEATH GUARD: INEXORABLE ADVANCE
Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
EMPEROR’S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Once per phase you may turn one failed wound roll into a successful wound roll for each unit with this trait.
IRON WARRIORS: SIEGE LORDS
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
NIGHT LORDS: DESCENT OF CLAWS
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls made for NIGHT LORDS units that charged this turn if the target is within 3" of an objective.
THOUSAND SONS: PSYCHIC INSIGHTS
When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
WORD BEARERS: PROFANE ZEAL
A unit with this attribute automatically passes Combat Attrition tests. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
WORLD EATERS: BUTCHER’S NAILS
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/10 15:46:33
Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you gain 1 CP the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase and the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your opponent's Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase.
BLACK LEGION: BLACK CRUSADERS
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
DEATH GUARD: INEXORABLE ADVANCE
Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
EMPEROR’S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Once per phase you may turn one failed wound roll into a successful wound roll for each unit with this trait.
IRON WARRIORS: SIEGE LORDS
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
NIGHT LORDS: DESCENT OF CLAWS
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls made for NIGHT LORDS units that charged this turn if the target is within 3" of an objective.
THOUSAND SONS: PSYCHIC INSIGHTS
When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
WORD BEARERS: PROFANE ZEAL
A unit with this attribute automatically passes Combat Attrition tests. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
WORLD EATERS: BUTCHER’S NAILS
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
Tristanleo wrote: I'd always imagined it differently. In lore, Night lords favour engagements where they have the numbers advantage, so some kind of bonus based on this would be fluffy, like +1 to hit or wound or reroll 1's if you outnumber your opponent.
For the second part, I imagined enemy models fleeing on attrition tests on 1 and 2's, instead of just 1, or D3 models are removed for failing the initial test instead of just 1 regardless of other effects.
+1 to hit and wound if you outnumber the unit your engaged with. And jump troops and terminators each count as 2 models. It's called A Talent For Murder, it's the Night Lords trait in HH, and it's great. Don't know why gw can't look at their other games for inspiration.
This one seems too strong since you can outnumber alot of stuff including monsters, hq's and vehicles which would yield a huge buff. Maybe something simpler than my original post would be falling back costs d3 mortal wounds, immediately punishing falling back.
Not really. Last I checked Night Lords weren't exactly considered game breaking in HH.
Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you gain 1 CP the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase and the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your opponent's Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase.
BLACK LEGION: BLACK CRUSADERS
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
DEATH GUARD: INEXORABLE ADVANCE
Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
EMPEROR’S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Once per phase you may turn one failed wound roll into a successful wound roll for each unit with this trait.
IRON WARRIORS: SIEGE LORDS
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
NIGHT LORDS: DESCENT OF CLAWS
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls made for NIGHT LORDS units that charged this turn if the target is within 3" of an objective.
THOUSAND SONS: PSYCHIC INSIGHTS
When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
WORD BEARERS: PROFANE ZEAL
A unit with this attribute automatically passes Combat Attrition tests. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
WORLD EATERS: BUTCHER’S NAILS
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
Ok that works for me
Yeah, I think I'm gonna wait and see on this, a lot of these seem to make little sense with regards to the faction or are just straight up useless.
Thousand sons having better overwatch? I can't imagine a worse trait with the fact that overwatch is a stratagem now...
Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you gain 1 CP the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase and the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your opponent's Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase.
BLACK LEGION: BLACK CRUSADERS
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
DEATH GUARD: INEXORABLE ADVANCE
Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
EMPEROR’S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Once per phase you may turn one failed wound roll into a successful wound roll for each unit with this trait.
IRON WARRIORS: SIEGE LORDS
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
NIGHT LORDS: DESCENT OF CLAWS
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls made for NIGHT LORDS units that charged this turn if the target is within 3" of an objective.
THOUSAND SONS: PSYCHIC INSIGHTS
When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
WORD BEARERS: PROFANE ZEAL
A unit with this attribute automatically passes Combat Attrition tests. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
WORLD EATERS: BUTCHER’S NAILS
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
Ok that works for me
Yeah, I think I'm gonna wait and see on this, a lot of these seem to make little sense with regards to the faction or are just straight up useless. Thousand sons having better overwatch? I can't imagine a worse trait with the fact that overwatch is a stratagem now...
That's not the whole trait though, I get that it is mostly useless in 9th but I didn't remove the existing trait, it's just a small bonus Slayer-Fan123 suggested in an old thread. What do you feel Thousand Sons need and deserve on top of the 6" psychic buff? I don't think any of the other ones are useless although Word Bearers get less benefit out of their thing this edition because the amount of losses a units suffer is generally closer to 1 than previously and tri-pointing and bad touching is less important. I would like to know which ones you don't think make sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/10 18:58:30
Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you gain 1 CP the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase and the first time an enemy unit is destroyed in your opponent's Movement phase, Psychic phase, Shooting phase, Charge phase and Fight phase.
BLACK LEGION: BLACK CRUSADERS
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
DEATH GUARD: INEXORABLE ADVANCE
Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
EMPEROR’S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Once per phase you may turn one failed wound roll into a successful wound roll for each unit with this trait.
IRON WARRIORS: SIEGE LORDS
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
NIGHT LORDS: DESCENT OF CLAWS
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls made for NIGHT LORDS units that charged this turn if the target is within 3" of an objective.
THOUSAND SONS: PSYCHIC INSIGHTS
When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
WORD BEARERS: PROFANE ZEAL
A unit with this attribute automatically passes Combat Attrition tests. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
WORLD EATERS: BUTCHER’S NAILS
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
Ok that works for me
Yeah, I think I'm gonna wait and see on this, a lot of these seem to make little sense with regards to the faction or are just straight up useless.
Thousand sons having better overwatch? I can't imagine a worse trait with the fact that overwatch is a stratagem now...
That's not the whole trait though, I get that it is mostly useless in 9th but I didn't remove the existing trait, it's just a small bonus Slayer-Fan123 suggested in an old thread. What do you feel Thousand Sons need and deserve on top of the 6" psychic buff? I don't think any of the other ones are useless although Word Bearers get less benefit out of their thing this edition because the amount of losses a units suffer is generally closer to 1 than previously and tri-pointing and bad touching is less important. I would like to know which ones you don't think make sense.
Yeah I was about to say these mostly look similar to ones I suggested in a previous thread. I switch around Night Lords all the time in my head though depending my mood when I'm typing.
5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
